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Christian antisemitism and the Holocaust.

Ray1

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I'm aware that the Nazis were not allies of Christianity, and among their long term goals was the destruction of the Christian religion completely. But the hatred towards the Jews wasn't an invention of the Nazis, but existed long before them, from the early days of Christianity starting with the Gospel of John.

Several churches have admitted that Christian antisemitism made way for the Holocaust. Centuries of Christian teachings that the Jews are the "killers of Christ" made it possible to dehumanize them, for what is worse crime than killing God himself?

The Christian anti-Judaism and antisemitism poses a challenge to the idea that Jesus of Nazareth is the salvation that Jewish people were waiting for. How could the man who was sent to save the people of God become the one that caused the most pain and suffering on them? How could the followers of Jesus go so far as to mock the Law that is supposedly given by God himself? There is a great deal of contradiction between Christianity's claim that it is the fulfillment of the the Law and the prophets and the reality that resulted from the supposed fulfillment.

Before anyone says that antisemitism existed before the rise of Christianity, I'm aware of that, however the hatred wasn't based on religious terms, and certainly neither the Romans nor the Babylonians claimed that they are the fulfillment of the Jewish law and the salvation that their prophets spoke of.

How do you approach this contradiction between Christianity's claim that its founder is the the One the people of Israel waited for and the fact it has become one major reason for countless number of deaths that influenced even atheist Nazis and at least gave the general Christian population of Europe a reason to turn a blind eye on the suffering of the Jews amongst them?

P.S. Eastern Orthodox Christians are not immune from what happened in Western Europe. Russian and Eastern Europe were well known for the bloody and savage attacks on the Jews in what was called pogroms. Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis with open arms and as a way of showing their welcome went on killing Jews like a bunch of filthy and blind savages. Those were people who were raised in a Christian environment, mostly Eastern Orthodox and found no contradiction between their religion and their savage and animal like actions.

Here is an example of savage Ukrainians killing a Jewish woman.
 
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Stinky

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Savage Ukrainians?

That's me holding that stick and that's you behind me laughing and running to keep up.

Until we lose the " Us" vs "Them" and understand that we are all capable (with very little prompting and training) to reinact Lord of the Flies, we will keep pointing fingers and slinging gasoline.
 

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I deny any connection between dehumanizing Jews and Christianity.
 

Ainnir

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Christianity =/= every action of people who claim to be Christian. What you’re referring to is human depravity and sin, and no person is immune. Christianity, and the Law before it, is how we know what is depraved and what isn’t. God will judge them, and all of us.
 

Ray1

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Savage Ukrainians?

That's me holding that stick and that's you behind me laughing and running to keep up.

Until we lose the " Us" vs "Them" and understand that we are all capable (with very little prompting and training) to reinact Lord of the Flies, we will keep pointing fingers and slinging gasoline.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm under no illusion that somehow I will be a hero if I was alive then. Chances are I would be just another man trying to go with the crowd because most of us are cowards who would not lift a finger to stand up for what is just and right. When I said 'savage Ukrainians' that was a statement of fact. Those in the photo are Ukrainians and the action they're taking is savage.
 

Ray1

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I deny any connection between dehumanizing Jews and Christianity.
But isn't the NT full of verses and statements that gave sanctity to antisemitism and the dehumanizing of Jews? Same with the early Fathers and the plenty of saints whose writings are filled with awful descriptions of the Jewish people?
 

Ray1

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Christianity =/= every action of people who claim to be Christian. What you’re referring to is human depravity and sin, and no person is immune. Christianity, and the Law before it, is how we know what is depraved and what isn’t. God will judge them, and all of us.
That is true. Humans are capable of evil with or without an outside cause or influence, but what is the point of Christianity if it wasn't able to stop such actions?
 

Ainnir

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That is true. Humans are capable of evil with or without an outside cause or influence, but what is the point of Christianity if it wasn't able to stop such actions?
To reconcile man to God.
 

biro

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This is ridiculous. Of course there were, and are, Nazis among Christians.
 

Ray1

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This is ridiculous. Of course there were, and are, Nazis among Christians.
I didn't say there weren't Christians among Nazis. I said that the goal of Nazism was to overthrow Christianity. Plenty of Nazi leaders were neo-Pagans or Deists who saw Christianity as a Jewish religion that weakened the German people and longed to go back to the days before the conversion. Nazis began their attempt by coming up with what was called 'Positive Christianity', one that had no connection to Judaism and where the divinity of Jesus was not part of its doctrines, but when such attempts failed, many leaders in the Nazi circles began to voice their real agenda, which was to overthrow the entire religion. Nazis shut down Christian schools, especially Catholic ones, and banned Catholic youth groups, and instead forced children to join Hitler's youth.
 

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But isn't the NT full of verses and statements that gave sanctity to antisemitism and the dehumanizing of Jews? Same with the early Fathers and the plenty of saints whose writings are filled with awful descriptions of the Jewish people?
Elaine Pagels, is that you? <insert appropriate emoji here>

I think some Christians have been too provocative and inflammatory with their language and actions, or have not gone far enough in speaking up in certain situations, but that is not isolated to Christians speaking of Jews, and I don't really see that in the Bible. Some of the writers in the early Church? Perhaps. I'd have to see particulars to know... it'd be a case-by-case thing. It's more like waves coming in and out than a tsunami: certainly some went too far, but I think you're overstating the case, especially as far as how much Christianity had to do with it, as opposed to other motives (nationalism, racism, greed, envy, etc.)
 

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What are we doing today in our own lives to prevent holocaust? Are we being led in fear and political group conscience to look at the "unmasked ones" as not being progressive for economic advancement? We are tired of all these restrictions!
The yellow star of David was a visual divider sewn on the clothing. Now we have a mask which is a visual representation of the state program.
The orthodox Jews shun immunization and received backlash in New York a few years ago in the "trial-run public response expose" to groups without MMR vaccine. They were targeted and attacked. If Hassidic Jews don't accept the Covid-19 vaccine what will happen? What will we do? What will I do? Is it too soon to start another holocaust? What do we do about the holocaust museum/ memorial? How do I treat my own neighbors? What "side" are you on? Are there sides?
God has not forgotten Israel. He is not finished yet.
We have been grafted in.
 

Ainnir

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Good, but shouldn't that change the world and people for the better?
Do you want free will, or do you want a magic wand? You can't have both. If God magically fixed everything, He would have to take our free will away, and we would not longer be in His Image. Do you want to be forced to worship Him? Because that's the price of what you're asking.
 

Arachne

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What are we doing today in our own lives to prevent holocaust? Are we being led in fear and political group conscience to look at the "unmasked ones" as not being progressive for economic advancement? We are tired of all these restrictions!
The yellow star of David was a visual divider sewn on the clothing. Now we have a mask which is a visual representation of the state program.
The orthodox Jews shun immunization and received backlash in New York a few years ago in the "trial-run public response expose" to groups without MMR vaccine. They were targeted and attacked. If Hassidic Jews don't accept the Covid-19 vaccine what will happen? What will we do? What will I do? Is it too soon to start another holocaust? What do we do about the holocaust museum/ memorial? How do I treat my own neighbors? What "side" are you on? Are there sides?
God has not forgotten Israel. He is not finished yet.
We have been grafted in.
Did you just equate a mandate aiming to safeguard everyone's health with systemic genocide?
 

Stinky

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Let's take a look at history.

This site shares what mandates for the safeguarding of everyone's health looked like during the haoulocast:


" Medical associations often began valuing political conformity more than medical knowledge."

 

Arachne

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Let's take a look at history.

This site shares what mandates for the safeguarding of everyone's health looked like during the haoulocast:


" Medical associations often began valuing political conformity more than medical knowledge."

Right out of the gate it says the concerns were for the health of Aryan Germans, which is far removed from 'everyone'.

What anti-maskers have is a terminal case of 'I got mine, screw you.'
 

Stinky

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Eeek
 
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Stinky

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Right out of the gate it says the concerns were for the health of Aryan Germans, which is far removed from 'everyone'.

What anti-maskers have is a terminal case of 'I got mine, screw

I don't understand what this means, " I got mine screw you."
Please explain.
 

Arachne

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Sorry, learning this system and I'm slow. I'm techno deprived.

I don't understand what this means, " I got mine screw you."
Please explain.
'A minor individual freedom of mine is more important than the life of anyone I come into contact with.'

That's what they say. Some of them in very similar words.
 

Stinky

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'A minor individual freedom of mine is more important than the life of anyone I come into contact with.'

That's what they say. Some of them in very similar words.
I'm sorry. I had no idea people think like that. Everything we do should be in love. I mask. I'm a healthcare worker. Lord have mercy.
 

Stinky

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Did you just equate a mandate aiming to safeguard everyone's health with systemic genocide?
I wanted to draw attention to our response to those who are different or who don't "follow the program." There will be those who do not mask or take the vaccine, or who will be separated from others for one reason or another. We are responsible for how we treat other human beings. Whether it's a Hassidic Jew who won't get a covid vaccine, a refugee at our borders, a marginalized human at work, or whoever. Each one of us must answer to our Creator in how we treat our brother or sister created in God's image. Will we pick up a stick and beat our sister-Jew and tear her dress because she won't wear a mask or get vaccinated? Do we justify our behavior because we are protecting the weaker in society? Let's do what is right. Lord have mercy and show us the way.
 
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Arachne

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I wanted to draw attention to our response to those who are different or who don't "follow the program." There will be those who do not mask or take the vaccine, or who will be separated from others for one reason or another. We are responsible for how we treat other human beings. Whether it's a Hassidic Jew who won't get a covid vaccine, a refugee at our borders, a marginalized human at work, or whoever. Each one of us must answer to our Creator in how we treat our brother or sister created in God's image. Will we pick up a stick and beat our sister-Jew and tear her dress because she won't wear a mask or get vaccinated? Do we justify our behavior because we are protecting the weaker in society? Let's do what is right. Lord have mercy and show us the way.
Keeping carriers of transmissible diseases at a distance is not remotely beating them with a stick - it's sound public health practice. Oh, the iniquity of having to shop for groceries by curbside dropoff! Why can't everyone who is immunocompromised, plus their families, isolate indefinitely, instead? That's colossal entitlement and it needs brought down.

In the glory days of Christendom, before the Enlightenment unbelievers ruined everything, an outbreak of plague meant entire families or communities were practically walled in until the disease ran its course, and that was perfectly Christian charity as far as they were concerned. Now we're moaning because unvaccinated people may not be allowed to socialise freely until transmission rates go down? Vaccinated people won't be doing that either. So cry me a river.

These people did what was right, without having to be told, much less forced: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-51904810
 

Stinky

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Keeping carriers of transmissible diseases at a distance is not remotely beating them with a stick - it's sound public health practice. Oh, the iniquity of having to shop for groceries by curbside dropoff! Why can't everyone who is immunocompromised, plus their families, isolate indefinitely, instead? That's colossal entitlement and it needs brought down.

In the glory days of Christendom, before the Enlightenment unbelievers ruined everything, an outbreak of plague meant entire families or communities were practically walled in until the disease ran its course, and that was perfectly Christian charity as far as they were concerned. Now we're moaning because unvaccinated people may not be allowed to socialise freely until transmission rates go down? Vaccinated people won't be doing that either. So cry me a river.

These people did what was right, without having to be told, much less forced: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-51904810
This state's that Margaret Blackwell probably had something of a genetic disposition that saved her life. This shows how countries use biological warfare using fleas ( vector) as transmission can purposefully spread disease.

I'm talking about how we choose to treat other human beings who are not like us, who choose to live differently, who may be our enemies, who may be maskless or who may be Jews, who may be the contagion, or lepers. The vile sinners, the scourge of the earth, the diseased and uneducated, the flea- bearers. Lord have mercy.

As for myself,
I go to work. Divine Liturgy. Groceries 2x month, Doctor yearly . I live a somewhat hermit life. But others are reckless and are vacationing in Florida. Do I strangle them? Others gather for holiday. Do I resent them? I am responsible for my actions and behavior and attitudes.
 

Arachne

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This state's that Margaret Blackwell probably had something of a genetic disposition that saved her life. This shows how countries use biological warfare using fleas ( vector) as transmission can purposefully spread disease.

I'm talking about how we choose to treat other human beings who are not like us, who choose to live differently, who may be our enemies, who may be maskless or who may be Jews, who may be the contagion, or lepers. The vile sinners, the scourge of the earth, the diseased and uneducated, the flea- bearers. Lord have mercy.

As for myself,
I go to work. Divine Liturgy. Groceries 2x month, Doctor yearly . I live a somewhat hermit life. But others are reckless and are vacationing in Florida. Do I strangle them? Others gather for holiday. Do I resent them? I am responsible for my actions and behavior and attitudes.
It also shows that the village chose to do the right thing and isolate without being forced to, rather than risk spreading the infection to the nearby city and further on. (Also, the theory that the main plague vector was fleas is seriously questioned, because quarantine worked, and you can't quarantine insects - not today, and certainly not back then. If you could, malaria and dengue would have been eradicated by now.)

This is not about 'choosing to live differently'. You keep bringing up Hasidic Jews; in their case, 'lifestyle choices' are about keeping kosher and not turning on the lights on Shabbat. Exposing others to contagious diseases doesn't fall under 'choice'. It's irresponsible at best, criminal at worst.

This is not about you either. It is about too many people who talk a big game about sacrifice and martyrdom, but as soon as they are asked to put up with a minor inconvenience, they're all 'and who is my neighbour'.
 

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It also shows that the village chose to do the right thing and isolate without being forced to, rather than risk spreading the infection to the nearby city and further on. (Also, the theory that the main plague vector was fleas is seriously questioned, because quarantine worked, and you can't quarantine insects - not today, and certainly not back then. If you could, malaria and dengue would have been eradicated by now.)

This is not about 'choosing to live differently'. You keep bringing up Hasidic Jews; in their case, 'lifestyle choices' are about keeping kosher and not turning on the lights on Shabbat. Exposing others to contagious diseases doesn't fall under 'choice'. It's irresponsible at best, criminal at worst.

This is not about you either. It is about too many people who talk a big game about sacrifice and martyrdom, but as soon as they are asked to put up with a minor inconvenience, they're all 'and who is my neighbour'.
This thread is about Christian response to Jews. I mention Hassidic Jews as they are easy to identify publicly.
I mention the personal response because that's how we keep ourselves from mob mentality....by keeping it personal. Thus I give my persona response to today's challenge.
I mention the masks to make our choices and behaviour relevant for today. The person who posted the question in this thread now has a valid response to the question as to how could groups of people who call themselves Christians do awful things.

Maybe the mobs of people calling themselves Christians sincerely thought they were doing God a favor by eliminating the public nuisance Jew? In the name of a common good? I heard the holocaust had a financial drive. I heard alot. Who knows? It sure sifted out the sheep from the goats right?

Keep it about you. Keep it personal.

Keep it about one person making a difference. Who knows? I may be able to touch many lives and Glorify God.

Schindlers List
 

Arachne

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The business owners and staff who get yelled at, spat at, assaulted and shot for refusing to let people enter their shops without masks are doing it for themselves and their own. Because - surprise! - what affects you affects your neighbour too.
 

Tzimis

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Identity isn't a good gauge for behavior. Just Google the story of
Vital Hasson.
 
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Re the specific situation of Ukraine in 1941, I can only guess that the holodomor ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ) was still a brutal memory. Perhaps further demonic deception fueled false credibility to disgusting theories like the Protocols of Zion ( despite that Jews undoubtedly must have also died in the holodomor).

I know there was German occupation of parts of Ukraine during World War I & that one was humane. Not all Ukrainian Jews in 1941 may actually have initially realized the differences between the Germans under the Kaiser vs Hitler.

I am not trying to rationalize any excuse for atrocities but trying to understand what might have perpetuated hatred in the situation. Honestly, I do not know other than that it was a tragedy & a mess.
 

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Re the specific situation of Ukraine in 1941, I can only guess that the holodomor ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ) was still a brutal memory. Perhaps further demonic deception fueled false credibility to disgusting theories like the Protocols of Zion ( despite that Jews undoubtedly must have also died in the holodomor).

I know there was German occupation of parts of Ukraine during World War I & that one was humane. Not all Ukrainian Jews in 1941 may actually have initially realized the differences between the Germans under the Kaiser vs Hitler.

I am not trying to rationalize any excuse for atrocities but trying to understand what might have perpetuated hatred in the situation. Honestly, I do not know other than that it was a tragedy & a mess.
Lord have mercy. We never have the full story do we? There's always much more. May we look for the image of God in each other always. Lord, keep us in Your grace.
 

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But isn't the NT full of verses and statements that gave sanctity to antisemitism and the dehumanizing of Jews? Same with the early Fathers and the plenty of saints whose writings are filled with awful descriptions of the Jewish people?
The Theotokos, Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, James, the rest of the apostles...

They were all Jews.
 

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But the hatred towards the Jews wasn't an invention of the Nazis, but existed long before them, from the early days of Christianity starting with the Gospel of John.
Hmm ..
In the 2nd century, soon after St John finished his gospel there were several wars between the Empire and various Jewish uprisings. Perhaps some of the propaganda could have crept into the Greek and Latin transmission streams of the gospel text. Do you think of any particular passages?

The only ones I have found, so far, have to do with stoning.
``Bring the one who cursed outside the camp, and all who heard shall lay their hands on his head, and the whole congregation shall stone him.'' — Leviticus 24:14.
This is interpreted in Sanhedrin 42b, 1-4, as saying stoning in Jerusalem may only be performed outside the city walls, and particularly not in the temple.

Yet, in John 8:59 and in 10:31, it is related that ιουδαῖοι bore stones in/to Solomon's Porch (10:23) in order to stone him (Jesus). Verse 10:31 seems to be, in more than one way, parallell to 10:39, where they don't carry stones but try to detain him, as they would have to do in order to bring him outside the city walls. On the other hand it might be easier to transport a person outside the walls after stoning him. (Acts 14:19) On the third hand, if they did bring stones to the temple, it would seem to call for further remarks by the evangelist's hand, wouldn't it?
 

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It also shows that the village chose to do the right thing and isolate without being forced to, rather than risk spreading the infection to the nearby city and further on. (Also, the theory that the main plague vector was fleas is seriously questioned, because quarantine worked, and you can't quarantine insects - not today, and certainly not back then. If you could, malaria and dengue would have been eradicated by now.)

This is not about 'choosing to live differently'. You keep bringing up Hasidic Jews; in their case, 'lifestyle choices' are about keeping kosher and not turning on the lights on Shabbat. Exposing others to contagious diseases doesn't fall under 'choice'. It's irresponsible at best, criminal at worst.

This is not about you either. It is about too many people who talk a big game about sacrifice and martyrdom, but as soon as they are asked to put up with a minor inconvenience, they're all 'and who is my neighbour'.
I believe you are right on this one.
 

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It also shows that the village chose to do the right thing and isolate without being forced to, rather than risk spreading the infection to the nearby city and further
This part...about being responsible to self isolate. I believe you are right about this.
 
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