Christian support of the nation state of Israel

FinnJames

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ialmisry said:
Besides your confusion between Segregation and Apartheid, any European looking Palestinian and any Arab looking "Israeli" in so called "Israel" could show you.

I noticed a peculiar absences of public water fountains there. Maybe you have now explained it.
The lack of public water fountains proves nothing other than that not every country arranges its plumbing like the US. Come to Finland; I don't think we have one public water fountain in the whole country.
 

RaphaCam

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mike said:
Rm 11, 25-36
Have you read St. John Chrysostom's commentary on this excerpt? St. Paul is talking about the Church as the Israel of God, and how it has sprung from the Old Testament nation. Not about Mr. Goldberg down the street.

Despite his anti-Semitic background, I'd rather believe our Holy Father than some random Baptist preacher.

Iconodule said:
If we read hymns, fathers, etc, it's pretty clear the Jews are not "a people like any other." And this before we start talking about some of the horrible manifestations of anti-Semitism in our history.
This is not doctrine. We can find exaggerations on what Russia is on Russian fathers and even a couple of hymns (I remember attending a curious vigil for Russian saints that caught my attention for that), but the superiority of Russia isn't Orthodox doctrine, just like Jewish inferiority isn't.
 

mike

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RaphaCam said:
mike said:
Rm 11, 25-36
Have you read St. John Chrysostom's commentary on this excerpt? St. Paul is talking about the Church as the Israel of God, and how it has sprung from the Old Testament nation. Not about Mr. Goldberg down the street.

Despite his anti-Semitic background, I'd rather believe our Holy Father than some random Baptist preacher.
I haven't read what st. John the Goldenmouth wrote about it. Neither I read Baptist preachers. I read what st. Paul wrote.
 

William T

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primuspilus said:
I really didnt know where to put this.

So, my questions is, why or why not should Christian support the current nation state of Israel?

Im not trying to get political, but its a big and divisive subject, and I just want to know people's thoughts.

Personally, I do not because the current holders of the land gave their rights away spiritually upon them denying Christ and His crucifixion, and legally during the Seige of Jerusalem when the Jews agreed to have the Muslims rule over them in their own land, just to kick out the Christians.

Thoughts?

PP
If we break this question down a bit, is this correct?:

1) What is the Christian attitude towards the nation state?

2) Is Israel, just for being Israel, an exception to the rule of all other thoughts on nation states for specifically Christian reasons?

3) Can we abstract this out further and instead of saying "Israel" we can grant them some kind of conditional abstraction of "persecuted 19/20th century people from Western powers"?  If so it's not about Israel and Jews at all but about a specifically Christian answer to "people harmed in a nation state of your citizenry".

As for your argument:


I have no idea what "giving land rights away for spiritual reasons" means.  Plus I think as those of us who try to follow Christ have to admit we all fail, and it really isn't for us to judge much those who deny them who never claimed Him anyway.

To give up the land by essentially loosing a war that happened over 2 thousand years ago is a stronger argument, though I'm not too sure how that could be a specific Christian answer...that's just going to loop around to how these kind of things work in general.  I guess in that case (along with points 1 &3), the "Christian" answer is simply what ever you think is honestly appropriate for how these kind of things work in general.

I think most of these answers, specifically ones involving "Israel (for or against) gets special rules (for secular or spiritual reasons) no matter what", are going to tend towards Ptolemiac epicycles and Scholastic twists and turns.  if you see yourself doing things like that, it's probably best to examine your presuppositions, premise, reasons for asking the question,and methods for forming an opinion.
 

William T

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mike said:
primuspilus said:
mike said:
RaphaCam said:
primuspilus said:
Jews have a right to live there as do the Palestinians
I agree to that. Everyone should have a home. however, my issue is that alot of the Dispensationalists are rabid supporters (bordering on blind apology) for the nation state of Israel. Is there anything in the New Testament that talks about this? Ive never seen it.

PP
Not really, the Orthodox position is that the Jews are a people like any other.
Not really.
?
Rm 11, 25-36
If I grant that you're right, that still says nothing about the Christian thought to the nation state of Israel.  Can you find a single early Christian source where there is the thought that non Christian Jews ought have their own independent nation ASAP, no matter what?  I don't think that's the logic going on there.

Once again, If you are arguing about the mistreatment of Jews by European powers, that's not a question about Jews specifically but a general question of Christian attitudes towards mistreated people.
 

mike

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William T said:
mike said:
primuspilus said:
mike said:
RaphaCam said:
primuspilus said:
Jews have a right to live there as do the Palestinians
I agree to that. Everyone should have a home. however, my issue is that alot of the Dispensationalists are rabid supporters (bordering on blind apology) for the nation state of Israel. Is there anything in the New Testament that talks about this? Ive never seen it.

PP
Not really, the Orthodox position is that the Jews are a people like any other.
Not really.
?
Rm 11, 25-36
If I grant that you're right, that still says nothing about the Christian thought to the nation state of Israel.  Can you find a single early Christian source where there is the thought that non Christian Jews ought have their own independent nation ASAP, no matter what?  I don't think that's the logic going on there.

Once again, If you are arguing about the mistreatment of Jews by European powers, that's not a question about Jews specifically but a general question of Christian attitudes towards mistreated people.
I'm not using that to prove the modern state of Israel has or has not the right to exist and on what basis. That's irrelevant. There is nothing about that in my posts.

I'm only saying that the nation/people/ethnos of Jews thanks to its love-hate relationship with God had, has, and will have a special treatment from God not shared by any other nation/people/ethnos. And IMO it's pretty obvious from the Bible (and I not mean the Old Testament). Not saying what precisely that would consist of, though.
 

William T

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mike said:
William T said:
mike said:
primuspilus said:
mike said:
RaphaCam said:
primuspilus said:
Jews have a right to live there as do the Palestinians
I agree to that. Everyone should have a home. however, my issue is that alot of the Dispensationalists are rabid supporters (bordering on blind apology) for the nation state of Israel. Is there anything in the New Testament that talks about this? Ive never seen it.

PP
Not really, the Orthodox position is that the Jews are a people like any other.
Not really.
?
Rm 11, 25-36
If I grant that you're right, that still says nothing about the Christian thought to the nation state of Israel.  Can you find a single early Christian source where there is the thought that non Christian Jews ought have their own independent nation ASAP, no matter what?  I don't think that's the logic going on there.

Once again, If you are arguing about the mistreatment of Jews by European powers, that's not a question about Jews specifically but a general question of Christian attitudes towards mistreated people.
I'm not using that to prove the modern state of Israel has or has not the right to exist and on what basis. That's irrelevant. There is nothing about that in my posts.

I'm only saying that the nation/people/ethnos of Jews thanks to its love-hate relationship with God had, has, and will have a special treatment from God not shared by any other nation/people/ethnos. And IMO it's pretty obvious from the Bible (and I not mean the Old Testament). Not saying what precisely that would consist of, though.
Gotcha, that's what I was double checking.  Due to the OP and the way you responded I wasn't sure if you were pointing out what you just stated , or trying to draw it into a specific defense of  the nation state.
 

ialmisry

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FinnJames said:
ialmisry said:
Besides your confusion between Segregation and Apartheid, any European looking Palestinian and any Arab looking "Israeli" in so called "Israel" could show you.

I noticed a peculiar absences of public water fountains there. Maybe you have now explained it.
The lack of public water fountains proves nothing other than that not every country arranges its plumbing like the US. Come to Finland; I don't think we have one public water fountain in the whole country.
I've been to Finland.

It stands out because water fountains are such a prominent feature of the Middle East, and have been for centuries (popular as a charitable work that the rich could put their name on).
 

rakovsky

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primuspilus said:
I really didnt know where to put this.

So, my questions is, why or why not should Christian support the current nation state of Israel?

Im not trying to get political,
but its a big and divisive subject, and I just want to know people's thoughts.
This is basically a Politics topic, because the only way to keep it out of the Politics section is to make religious doctrinal justifications for one position or the other.

Unless you very strictly discuss only the argument that it's good or bad for the Christian population or that our religious teachings say to support or oppose the State or its policies, I believe the moderators are going to move such discussions to Politics.

Typically what people will do in these kinds of discussions is to do things like compare treatment of Christians in neighboring countries to that in the Israeli state. So one person will talk about how bad ISIS is in Syria and say that Israeli rule is far better than the alternative, while another person will talk about protection or democratic governance of Christians in Cyprus, Lebanon, government-held Syria, Jordan, etc. and then propose that the alternative of such protection or democratic participation would be better for the Palestinian territories.

But after this, discussions can so easily get off track, with someone then writing a monologue only about ISIS, or bringing in a tangled web of alliances, that I don't know why you don't just start this thread in Politics. People will feel far more comfortable discussing the topic there.
 

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Diego said:
I am of the personal perspective that Israel is NOT an apartheid state, and anyone who says it is doesn't know what apartheid really was. Furthermore, EVERY single Muslim living in Greater Israel should be ordered to exit the country within 30 days. Christians and Druze are welcome to live there, of course, provided they obey the laws.

(...)

That in no way conferred upon them a THIRD nationality called "Palestinian", which had never existed in history. And Israel is HARDLY obligated to give these people citizenship in a country they want to destroy.

Israel is accused of genocide. Funny, that. Since 1967, the population of the "Palestinians" has increased by FOUR times! If Israel is trying to commit genocide, they must REALLY suck at it!

(...)

Anybody who hides rockets in schools, uses children as human shields and suicide bombers, etc etc, should not even be allowed to live, in my not so humble opinion. But rather than shooting every one of them, which is what they deserve, I would simply impose on them the obligation of leaving Greater Israel within 30 days for any Arab country of their choice. There are 22 to choose from.
If this guy thinks like that, I'm scared of what ultranationalist israelis are currently thinking...
Israel is not an apartheid state, but the muslims must all leave. Interesting.
Well, here are some aspects of genocide:

From the Rome Statute (http://legal.un.org/icc/statute/99_corr/cstatute.htm):

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The bolds are for things that Israel does or has done.
Ever heard of Cultural Genocide?
You deny that palestinians are even a thing, you deny their self-determination. That's pretty much a form of genocide IMO.

Oh, well. The garbage tossed aside, I'm strickingly neutral on this matter. I gave up studying it long ago. I think someday I'll come back.
My personal opinion is that jews deserve a state of their own, and those who live there must comply to the dominant culture. That does not mean casting the muslims all out and does not mean I agree with the excesses we hear from the israeli state.
 

rakovsky

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DIEGO,
Diego said:
Christians and Druze are welcome to live there, of course, provided they obey the laws.
Earlier you said that it got to you that some Orthodox thought Anglicans were closer to Orthodoxy than Lutherans were. And I sympathized with what you said. It sounded like you actually cared what Eastern Christians think.

I don't know how to square that with the comment you just made.

Imagine if Congress announced that Native Americans or LCMS members are free to live here .... provided they obey the laws.

I have EXTREMELY personal reasons for my views.
How about the Orthodox Christians living there who are descended from the Christians we read about in the New Testament? Maybe they have personal reasons for their views too?

I would simply impose on them the obligation of leaving Greater Israel within 30 days for any Arab country of their choice. There are 22 to choose from.

Again, an exception could be made for the Christians and the Druze.
And yes, I do have strong personal reasons for my views, which I have no intention of discussing here.
Feel free to discuss here the "strong personal reasons" that "the Christians" have for their views on the opportunity of being given 30 days to leave Greater Israel.
 

rakovsky

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Svartzorn said:
Svartzorn and Diego,

I am not a moderator, but I'd like to give you a friendly heads up that almost everything you and Diego just wrote I think is the kind of thing the Forum would like to go to the Politics section. My friendly suggestion is that from here on you and Diego narrowly restrict your discussion to Christian and religious thought/teachings .
 
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Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well. Some people(mostly Evangelical Protestants) don't get it that the Palestinian Christians (mostly Orthodox) are stuck in between a rock, on one side the illegal immigrant Jewish settlers from USA, Europe & Russia, and The otherside Muslim Supremacists that has made the Christians Dhimmis going back to the times of the Ottoman Empire. If Protestants feel Jewish lives are more important than native Christians, don't act surprised when we expel your stupid missionaries.
 

William T

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Svartzorn said:
Is there any theological reason to think that the jews are any more deserving of God's love than we are?
Is there any reason to think that a prostitute was deserving of Christ's love over a Pharisee?  I don't think it's really our job to care who is owed or deserves what when it comes to the love of God, that's pure hubris.  And I think we ought know better we don't deserve anything.
 

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Svartzorn said:
Is there any theological reason to think that the jews are any more deserving of God's love than we are?
According to the Babylonian Talmud (which I've read Diego) yes.  Everyone else is a goyim, and will eventually be slaves (some say voluntary slaves) to the Jews. 

The real issue is that the true Israel is still in exile...meaning Orthodox Christians.

It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.” So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus,
 

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William T said:
mike said:
seekeroftruth777 said:
it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.
We killed Christ. You and me.
Truth
Yup.  Lord have mercy.

The question is not whether Jews are guilty of rejecting God...it's that we are all guilty of this.
 

William T

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Onesimus said:
William T said:
mike said:
seekeroftruth777 said:
it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.
We killed Christ. You and me.
Truth
Yup.  Lord have mercy.

The question is not whether Jews are guilty of rejecting God...it's that we are all guilty of this.
For the purposes of this thread, I would also say forming theories of justifications, rights, and so forth based off of this kind of thing is going to get pretty rotten pretty quick.  This is not within the scope of man to judge too much on, if he is trying to be obedient to God.  Property rights based off of who killed Christ?  Who's less guilty?  Who's more to blame?  Who can I externally scapegoat easiest?

It's not to say we can't form political or theological opinions about the nation state of Israel or Judaism, but that's a completely wrong approach to things.
 
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