Christian unity: Poll

In your opinion what is a good enough reason for Christians to unite into one church?

  • Everyone else needs to agree 100% with my church's theology.

    Votes: 39 50.0%
  • Jesus is the only thing that matters, theology is stupid.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • RC's EO's and OO's should lift the anathemas and let each other co-exist in communion.

    Votes: 14 17.9%
  • A compromised or an agreed upon statement of faith is all that's necessary for all Christians regard

    Votes: 4 5.1%
  • Unity?! I hope those heretics burn in Hell!

    Votes: 3 3.8%
  • Other. EXPLAIN!!!!

    Votes: 18 23.1%

  • Total voters
    78

Marc Hanna

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I hope this poll doesn't get moderated.  Feel free to remain anonymous if you voted for option #5.  I'm really just interested in knowing what the general spirit of the people on this forum is.  Is christian unity important to people?  Please give an explanation if you voted "other".

God bless,

Marc
 

Kav

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One of the first errors I made after crismation was pride.

I was ORTHODOX!

Clever little me, I had collected $200 100fold times passing go, had a Get out of Jail free  card and bought Park Place  out from under Joel Olsteen, Reverand Shuller and that pink wigged lady on CBN.

I was no less in error than the smug people who believe in a rapture limited to so many people.

This is a critical time for humanity. but then, It has ALWAYS been a critical time, be it the Plague, National Socialism or Climate Change.

Secular humanism, a word I don't quite understand but equate with selfish hubrisism, elements of Islam intent on a messianic fullfilment of the Madi's arrival, the current economic slump  are all rich material for spreading the gospel.

And the irony is, in a few generations none of these will scare us, in their turn just another page in history, replaced by anything from global water shortages to a meteor we need to bump with a nuclear cue stick.

But meanwhile, I know what the gospel has done for me, what it could do as the simple majority of belief it now holds in total but not united majority of numbers.

I'd really like to attend Litergy with that lady as guest. I just hope she leaves that pink wig at home.

 

PeterTheAleut

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Marc Hanna said:
I hope this poll doesn't get moderated.
I did modify one vulgar word to replace it with something more acceptable, but outside of that the poll is okay by moderatorial standards.
 

serb1389

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I was gona put "other" and say something along the lines of:  when all of the bishops get together and agree on ecclesiology, theology, etc. with each other, in a constructive and easy to understand manner, which is REPRESENTATIVE of the people they "represent" (or are supposed to represent).  I would say that's the ideal situation. 
 

Quinault

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I think that uniting ALL of Christianity is not likely. But I think that possibly someday the OO, EO and at least Eastern Catholic churches have a really good shot at uniting in the far off future.
 

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One may also ask, "to what extent is it appropriate to refer to those outside the Church as Christian?"
 

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Oh great, I can see it now, a bunch of orthodox homeboys doing drivebyes in some Dutch Reform nieghborhood flashing our version of crossing only to return to find the meeting hall tagged in a  Book of kells vibrant coloured latin.

Haven't we have enough wars over 'who is Christian?'
 

Orthodox11

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Kav said:
Oh great, I can see it now, a bunch of orthodox homeboys doing drivebyes in some Dutch Reform nieghborhood flashing our version of crossing only to return to find the meeting hall tagged in a  Book of kells vibrant coloured latin.

Haven't we have enough wars over 'who is Christian?'
You don't think a definition of "Christian" is needed before speaking of Christian unity?
 

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Watching the obligatory epics of Easter television programming that should be easy- brown army surplus blankets from wardrobe are the Christians or Jews.
Everybody else is wearing  polyester in bright colours.
 

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I voted other. I think everyone needs to agree on the constant teaching of the church catholic. It doesnt have to be "my church only", if theres a vital council which decreed something, and if the Orthodox church agrees with the descision then it can be added as one of our own and vica versa. Of course while this theory sounds good , truth be told we disagree on way too much.
 Please refrain from posting until your dual user names (buzu & buzuxi) are sorted out.
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 Duplicate accounts are banned.

If you are having difficulties logging in as buzuxi, contact Fr Anastasios.
 

ozgeorge

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I don't understand option 4:

"A compromised or an agreed upon statement of faith is all that's necessary for all Christians regardless of faith."

I thought that is what the Symbol of Faith was.

Except, of course, it is not agreed on.
 

Marc Hanna

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PeterTheAleut said:
Marc Hanna said:
I hope this poll doesn't get moderated.
I did modify one vulgar word to replace it with something more acceptable, but outside of that the poll is okay by moderatorial standards.
Just so everyone knows, it wasn't a "four letter word", it was a proper English word that means "a child born out of wedlock" but used in a derogatory manner - for hyperbolic impact of course :)

I think option #4 would have made more sense if I have had put "regardless of denomination", but that could have also raised issues because many do not consider the traditional churches as part of "denominational christianity."  How about "regardless of one's affiliation to a legal entity representative of an organized religious group claiming to be christian that may or may not span beyond international borders and may or may not require representation by a legal corporation in all or part of it's international constituents"?
 

Heorhij

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I voted "other," simply because, in my opinion (for all its worth) all of the listed statements are more or less missing the point and may be used by those who disagree with them as examples of something wrong. For one example, saying "everyone HAS to agree with my Church's teaching" has a connotation of forcing people to have certain views, which is never a good thing.

Perhaps my answer to the question, what's good for Church unity is simply, stay faithful and show everyone around you that you are a child of God.
 

Dan-Romania

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My opinion is that unity should not be done touching the integrity of truth . It should be like a great council between Church Elders and debating for a long long time , every dogma and every belief being depicted in four . My idea is that Orthodoxy is the closest to the Truth , I don`t know taught every Orthodox dogma , but i also don`t disconsider the Catholics even if they fallen into some heresies . If any unity affects the truth in little ,than that unity should not be made . Thought I must say I consider unity in some way , but only in the true . Also my humble opinion is that we , the orthodox are in one of the best religious of all , and have one of the best doctrine , and teaches the true , mainly as it was left by the Church Fathers to the early Church trought the testimony of the seven councils .
 

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Heorhij said:
I voted "other," simply because, in my opinion (for all its worth) all of the listed statements are more or less missing the point and may be used by those who disagree with them as examples of something wrong. For one example, saying "everyone HAS to agree with my Church's teaching" has a connotation of forcing people to have certain views, which is never a good thing.

Perhaps my answer to the question, what's good for Church unity is simply, stay faithful and show everyone around you that you are a child of God.
Leading by example.  This is good.
 
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Other. There will be no Christian unity outside of Orthodoxy without compromising Orthodoxy. OTH, I believe there are many true Christians not physically in the Orthodox church and the Lord knows better than I.
 

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I marked "other." We should strive for unity because that is the will of Jesus as expressed in High Priestly Prayer (John 17).
 

rakovsky

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Everyone else needs to agree 100% with my church's theology. 
I voted for other, but I should have voted for this one. I believe that my church's teaching is right- the Nicene Creed is an accurate statement of Christianity.
From a Christian perspective, everyone else needs to become one with Christ, and part of that would be to agree 100% with the basic teachings of Christianity. The Orthodox Church has preserved those teachings.

Everyone needs to agree 100% with the theology of the church to unite fully with Christ in mind, so therefore the churches should accept the basic teachings of the early church, unite, and teach Christians these teachings.
 

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I can't believe that there are 10 people or 32 percent of the votes, that want the heretics to burn. Where's the love of God?
http://www.oodegr.com/english/swthria/odos1.htm

Some have attempted to interpret the notions of "hell", of "enlightenment", of "salvation" and of "perdition" on the basis of their own scant experiences, given that they have never had even the faintest sighting of the reality of the future aeon.  This is why they say certain things somewhat altered to those who are further behind them on the road. And they in turn distort those things even more, and relay them even more altered to the others who are behind them.  This is how heresies are created.  However, this is also how the religiously INTOLERANT are created. These are usually the ones who believe themselves to be very close to the end of the road, and who even see mirages of the Kingdom (which are actually images that are a far cry from those of reality).  These people threaten the others with "eternal hell" and they confront God as though He were a "common sadist" and "unjust" - a God that one can only fear and hate.  It is people like these who become the cause for "the road to the Truth to be blasphemed", according to the words of the Bible. And while in reality they are under the impression that they are nearing the end of the road, they are actually still at the beginning – quite simply because they are displaying hatred, when this course is inextricably interwoven with LOVE (since the end of this road leads to God, Who is "Love").[i/]

Don't worry the blind can be saved too. just read the rest of this amazing article that I've posted.
 

rakovsky

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I can't believe that there are 10 people or 32 percent of the votes, that want the heretics to burn. Where's the love of God?
Maybe they are joking.
It is hard to think of someone who WANTS the heretics to burn in hell. After all, I think the evil Catholic Inquisition claimed that it was saving the people it tortured.
 

Fr. George

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Christianus said:
I can't believe that there are 10 people or 32 percent of the votes, that want the heretics to burn. Where's the love of God?
10 people have not voted to burn... 3 have.  10 voted for "Other."
 

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rakovsky said:
I can't believe that there are 10 people or 32 percent of the votes, that want the heretics to burn. Where's the love of God?
Maybe they are joking.
It is hard to think of someone who WANTS the heretics to burn in hell. After all, I think the evil Catholic Inquisition claimed that it was saving the people it tortured.
The physical punishments that accompanied guilty verdicts by the inquisitional courts were actually carried out by the state and not the Catholic Church.
 

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I voted other. I think it would need to be a combination of:

Everyone else needs to agree 100% with my church's theology.
RC's EO's and OO's should lift the anathemas and let each other co-exist in communion.
A compromised or an agreed upon statement of faith is all that's necessary for all Christians regardless of faith.
My personal opinon would be that unity within Orthodoxy (at least EO) would need to be straightened out before coming to any kind of agreed unity with other churches outside of that communion. Christian unity is still something that should be worked toward and prayed for.
 

rakovsky

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Papist said:
rakovsky said:
I can't believe that there are 10 people or 32 percent of the votes, that want the heretics to burn. Where's the love of God?
Maybe they are joking.
It is hard to think of someone who WANTS the heretics to burn in hell. After all, I think the evil Catholic Inquisition claimed that it was saving the people it tortured.
The physical punishments that accompanied guilty verdicts by the inquisitional courts were actually carried out by the state and not the Catholic Church.
Sure Due. I would be saying the same thing from a Catholic viewpoint. But OOPS you are missing a big point. The VERDICTS and executions were carried out by the state, but the interrogating tortures were supervised by the Catholic Church. They even put a clack cloth over the crucifix during the tortures to hide from Jesus what they were doing. I saw it on TV so I know it is true.

The point is that even while the Catholic Inquisition tortured people and its leaders approved of and were instrumental in the executions, indeed used political machinations in some cases to encourage them, the rationale was that they were saving the "heretics" from hell. The mentality though is very evil, shown by the fact that they were covering up crucifixes while doing this.

I am unaware of whether the "Office of the Holy Inquisition" was used against Orthodox. I do know that Orthodox were persecuted in Catholic countries like Austria and Poland, that the Inquisition had a very BAD reputation in Russia as seen in Dostoyevsky's works, and indeed Catholic orders had a reputation as being secretive, manipulative, and repressive, as seen by the term "Jesuitical" being used not infrequently in the Russian language to mean those things.
 

stanley123

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rakovsky said:
Papist said:
rakovsky said:
I can't believe that there are 10 people or 32 percent of the votes, that want the heretics to burn. Where's the love of God?
Maybe they are joking.
It is hard to think of someone who WANTS the heretics to burn in hell. After all, I think the evil Catholic Inquisition claimed that it was saving the people it tortured.
The physical punishments that accompanied guilty verdicts by the inquisitional courts were actually carried out by the state and not the Catholic Church.
Sure Due. I would be saying the same thing from a Catholic viewpoint. But OOPS you are missing a big point. The VERDICTS and executions were carried out by the state, but the interrogating tortures were supervised by the Catholic Church. They even put a clack cloth over the crucifix during the tortures to hide from Jesus what they were doing. I saw it on TV so I know it is true.

The point is that even while the Catholic Inquisition tortured people and its leaders approved of and were instrumental in the executions, indeed used political machinations in some cases to encourage them, the rationale was that they were saving the "heretics" from hell. The mentality though is very evil, shown by the fact that they were covering up crucifixes while doing this.

I am unaware of whether the "Office of the Holy Inquisition" was used against Orthodox. I do know that Orthodox were persecuted in Catholic countries like Austria and Poland, that the Inquisition had a very BAD reputation in Russia as seen in Dostoyevsky's works, and indeed Catholic orders had a reputation as being secretive, manipulative, and repressive, as seen by the term "Jesuitical" being used not infrequently in the Russian language to mean those things.
There are some books written by Henry Charles Lea on the inquisition and I think that he mentions there were cases in Milan or Venice, I am not sure which,  (but not the Spanish Inquisition), where a few people were brought forward for espousing the "Greek heresy."
But that is another topic.
For the question concerning Christian unity, yeah, it would be nice if at least there were some sort of loose union, but quite honestly, I don't see where either the RC or EO really want reunion. Oh, yes, there is hopeful and flowery talk about it,  but do they really want it? I don;t think so. For one thing, the RC know that the EO will never accept papal infallibility or universal papal jurisdiction, but where is the rewording and softening of this teaching to make it acceptable from the Orthodox viewpoint? For the EO, they go around saying that the RC baptism is invalid because sprinking or pouring does not qualify as a triple immersion whcih is required by the Church canons. So from the start all the RC Sacraments are invalid, and the Pope himself is a heretical layman without any priestly powers.
For another clue as to how much reunion is really wanted, there is a Church in Jerusalem, the Holy Sepulchre Church where control of the building is shared by EO, Armenian, RC, and others to a lesser extent such as the Coptic, Ethiopian and Syrian Orthodox. But is there charity in this most holy of Churches? I don;t see it. What I see is each side fiercely claiming to its rights and willing to declare all out war on the other over the slightest itty bitty minor issue, such as for example when in 2002 a Coptic monk was getting hot sitting in the sun, so he moved his chair just the slightest bit to a shaded area. Immediately, a brutal barbaric warlike fistfight broke out leaving eleven people almost dead and requiring hospitalisation.
If the RC and EO really wanted reunion, they would have been able to hammer things out long ago. But no, neither side wants to budge from the status quo. That's just the way things are.
 

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the EO and OO need to unify sooner than later and I believe it is very doable. This needs to be done on whatever grounds required and I feel a compromise between the two will not hurt any theological stands. After that, let the Romans and Protestants come to us, if they like. No budging in that area.
 

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I was surprised to hear about what you said about the "Greek heresy"!!!

For the EO, they go around saying that the RC baptism is invalid because sprinking or pouring does not qualify as a triple immersion whcih is required by the Church canons.
I think this is debated. Anyway, Roman Catholics are accepted into Orthodoxy (minus Greek) by Chrismation without rebaptism.


You are right that if both churches wanted a reunion enough, they COULD do it.

It would be a big mistake though in saying it is both the churches' faults equally for failing to work things out. Let's say you and I sit down to work things out and negotiate.

The cards you hold in your hand is the chair of the Pope/Patriach of Rome and a claim of unequaled papal supremacy and infallibility.

The cards I hold are the chairs of all the ancient Patriarchs and claims that we are all equal in authority as Jesus' disciples.

Practically speaking, there is not a compromise on this that will make both sides happy based on POWER. POWER is the biggest practical cause of the division I believe. So this is what we will negotiate in this round.

Let's say I accept your claim. Then I am absolutely under you and I have to conform my doctrines to Rome. Then all I did was become Eastern Catholic, mere autonomy under a single earthly dictator. I am under your power now as my superior and you are not under mine so long as you rule me.

If you give up Unequaled Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, it will be an enormous loss in your eyes. It is like a King accepting a small parliament! And giving up infallibility? It is like a "god" becoming admitting he can be wrong. Wow! Is the Pope going to give that up? Look at the presumptions the Vatican makes. It has it's own state! Its one chair controlled nearly all the western world from 1450 until the Reformation. It ran the Crusades against Islam, pillaging Byzantium on the way. The current Pope belong to the Office of the Inquisition (renamed). How many holy orders and governments swore to it and what secrets does it have in its archives? The name of the Pope is so awe-ful for millions and millions of catholics all over the world. Is he going to lower himself to be a mere "equal" of our Patriarchs, weak besides Russia and Greece?

From a Machievellian standpoint of power, Rome is not going to give up its claims to authority and become a mere "equal", constrained in its innovations and decisions by "weakling" Patriarchs. And considering the abuses of power and theological innovations in the Catholic Church I do not believe the Orthodox Church should submit itself to Rome as its Supreme Ruler.

OK, you and I can compromise. I can say the Pope is equal, and you can say he has primacy (firstness). We can agree that the Pope is "first among equals." We can agree that he gets first place physically in chairing meetings, but all our Patriarchates are autocephalous and he doesn't speak for us if we disagree on something.

This is reasonable to me. It gives Rome some honor without giving up our independence and rights. This compromise is the Orthodox position and is the best I see for Rome's position without submitting everyone to the one-man dictatorship of someone who has not replaced Jesus.


The blame I see for not accepting such a compromise, for not agreeing to autocephaly, indeed for previously forcing Latin ways on Byzantine Catholics, is ultimately Rome's. And why should Rome politically have bowed to Greece, crushed under Turkey, or faraway cold "barbarian" Russia? Now that Greece is independent in the last century maybe Rome is thinking about it more.


I do hope that the churches will unite, but I believe there is a strong reasons of political power why Rome has not chosen to do so long ago as you say.

On the Orthodox Church's terms there would be equality, but on Rome's terms Rome would have Supremacy.

Rome is powerful and has supremacy in the west, why would it want to lower its administrative power to that of the weaker, smaller chairs of the other apostles?
 

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rakovsky said:
I was surprised to hear about what you said about the "Greek heresy"!!!
Mr. Lea has a number of books on the Inquisition and unfortunately, I don;t have them in front of me right now. A lot of them are on the Google books, and I have been debating about buying an e-reader, perhaps the Sony, where I could read these easily, but as yet I have not bought one. As I recall, there were a few people, I guess they were RC or former RC, brought before the Inquisition (not the Spanish but one in what is now Italy) for the "Greek heresy". There was no mention made of their being tortured, only questioned about it.
 

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rakovsky said:
I was surprised to hear about what you said about the "Greek heresy"!!!

For the EO, they go around saying that the RC baptism is invalid because sprinking or pouring does not qualify as a triple immersion whcih is required by the Church canons.
I think this is debated. Anyway, Roman Catholics are accepted into Orthodoxy (minus Greek) by Chrismation without rebaptism.


You are right that if both churches wanted a reunion enough, they COULD do it.

It would be a big mistake though in saying it is both the churches' faults equally for failing to work things out. Let's say you and I sit down to work things out and negotiate.

The cards you hold in your hand is the chair of the Pope/Patriach of Rome and a claim of unequaled papal supremacy and infallibility.

The cards I hold are the chairs of all the ancient Patriarchs and claims that we are all equal in authority as Jesus' disciples.

Practically speaking, there is not a compromise on this that will make both sides happy based on POWER. POWER is the biggest practical cause of the division I believe. So this is what we will negotiate in this round.

Let's say I accept your claim. Then I am absolutely under you and I have to conform my doctrines to Rome. Then all I did was become Eastern Catholic, mere autonomy under a single earthly dictator. I am under your power now as my superior and you are not under mine so long as you rule me.

If you give up Unequaled Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, it will be an enormous loss in your eyes. It is like a King accepting a small parliament! And giving up infallibility? It is like a "god" becoming admitting he can be wrong. Wow! Is the Pope going to give that up? Look at the presumptions the Vatican makes. It has it's own state! Its one chair controlled nearly all the western world from 1450 until the Reformation. It ran the Crusades against Islam, pillaging Byzantium on the way. The current Pope belong to the Office of the Inquisition (renamed). How many holy orders and governments swore to it and what secrets does it have in its archives? The name of the Pope is so awe-ful for millions and millions of catholics all over the world. Is he going to lower himself to be a mere "equal" of our Patriarchs, weak besides Russia and Greece?

From a Machievellian standpoint of power, Rome is not going to give up its claims to authority and become a mere "equal", constrained in its innovations and decisions by "weakling" Patriarchs. And considering the abuses of power and theological innovations in the Catholic Church I do not believe the Orthodox Church should submit itself to Rome as its Supreme Ruler.

OK, you and I can compromise. I can say the Pope is equal, and you can say he has primacy (firstness). We can agree that the Pope is "first among equals." We can agree that he gets first place physically in chairing meetings, but all our Patriarchates are autocephalous and he doesn't speak for us if we disagree on something.

This is reasonable to me. It gives Rome some honor without giving up our independence and rights. This compromise is the Orthodox position and is the best I see for Rome's position without submitting everyone to the one-man dictatorship of someone who has not replaced Jesus.


The blame I see for not accepting such a compromise, for not agreeing to autocephaly, indeed for previously forcing Latin ways on Byzantine Catholics, is ultimately Rome's. And why should Rome politically have bowed to Greece, crushed under Turkey, or faraway cold "barbarian" Russia? Now that Greece is independent in the last century maybe Rome is thinking about it more.


I do hope that the churches will unite, but I believe there is a strong reasons of political power why Rome has not chosen to do so long ago as you say.

On the Orthodox Church's terms there would be equality, but on Rome's terms Rome would have Supremacy.

Rome is powerful and has supremacy in the west, why would it want to lower its administrative power to that of the weaker, smaller chairs of the other apostles?
OK. that is your POV. It is true that RC are stubborn and could modify and soften this teaching on Papal primacy, but I read that for the EO it is not enough for the Pope to convert to EO. What has to take place is that after the Pope converts, then each individual bishop and priest would have to convert individually. Still, that would not be enough, because after this had occurred, each individual Catholic would have to convert to EO, one by one. Only then would there be reunion.  As I see it, neither side wants to budge one itty bitty tiny bit from their positions. They are blabbering about reunion, but if they really wanted it, they could hammer things out. there are a lot of examples as to how the two sides work together at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The Church needed a new dome and how many years did it take before they agreed to a plan for the dome? Was it 20 or 30? Each side presented the other with a beautiful detailed plan for reconstruction only to have it turned down by the other side?
Then there was the case of a door at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which was slightly open at the RC part of the Church during a promenade by an EO group. One side demanded the door be closed tight, the other said they wanted it opened just a crack for the air and a brutal and vicious bloody fist fight broke out between the EO and RC over this ridiculous issue at the most Holy Church in the world. How many people ended up in the hospital over this? I don't see this as a shining example of Christian charity as preached by Our Divine Lord?
Each side blames the other and each side wants to hold its ground. As long as this attitude prevails, I am sorry, but there will be no reunion between RC and EO.
 

stanley123

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rakovsky said:
I was surprised to hear about what you said about the "Greek heresy"!!!

For the EO, they go around saying that the RC baptism is invalid because sprinking or pouring does not qualify as a triple immersion whcih is required by the Church canons.
I think this is debated. Anyway, Roman Catholics are accepted into Orthodoxy (minus Greek) by Chrismation without rebaptism.


You are right that if both churches wanted a reunion enough, they COULD do it.

It would be a big mistake though in saying it is both the churches' faults equally for failing to work things out. Let's say you and I sit down to work things out and negotiate.

The cards you hold in your hand is the chair of the Pope/Patriach of Rome and a claim of unequaled papal supremacy and infallibility.

The cards I hold are the chairs of all the ancient Patriarchs and claims that we are all equal in authority as Jesus' disciples.

Practically speaking, there is not a compromise on this that will make both sides happy based on POWER. POWER is the biggest practical cause of the division I believe. So this is what we will negotiate in this round.

Let's say I accept your claim. Then I am absolutely under you and I have to conform my doctrines to Rome. Then all I did was become Eastern Catholic, mere autonomy under a single earthly dictator. I am under your power now as my superior and you are not under mine so long as you rule me.

If you give up Unequaled Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, it will be an enormous loss in your eyes. It is like a King accepting a small parliament! And giving up infallibility? It is like a "god" becoming admitting he can be wrong. Wow! Is the Pope going to give that up? Look at the presumptions the Vatican makes. It has it's own state! Its one chair controlled nearly all the western world from 1450 until the Reformation. It ran the Crusades against Islam, pillaging Byzantium on the way. The current Pope belong to the Office of the Inquisition (renamed). How many holy orders and governments swore to it and what secrets does it have in its archives? The name of the Pope is so awe-ful for millions and millions of catholics all over the world. Is he going to lower himself to be a mere "equal" of our Patriarchs, weak besides Russia and Greece?

From a Machievellian standpoint of power, Rome is not going to give up its claims to authority and become a mere "equal", constrained in its innovations and decisions by "weakling" Patriarchs. And considering the abuses of power and theological innovations in the Catholic Church I do not believe the Orthodox Church should submit itself to Rome as its Supreme Ruler.

OK, you and I can compromise. I can say the Pope is equal, and you can say he has primacy (firstness). We can agree that the Pope is "first among equals." We can agree that he gets first place physically in chairing meetings, but all our Patriarchates are autocephalous and he doesn't speak for us if we disagree on something.

This is reasonable to me. It gives Rome some honor without giving up our independence and rights. This compromise is the Orthodox position and is the best I see for Rome's position without submitting everyone to the one-man dictatorship of someone who has not replaced Jesus.


The blame I see for not accepting such a compromise, for not agreeing to autocephaly, indeed for previously forcing Latin ways on Byzantine Catholics, is ultimately Rome's. And why should Rome politically have bowed to Greece, crushed under Turkey, or faraway cold "barbarian" Russia? Now that Greece is independent in the last century maybe Rome is thinking about it more.


I do hope that the churches will unite, but I believe there is a strong reasons of political power why Rome has not chosen to do so long ago as you say.

On the Orthodox Church's terms there would be equality, but on Rome's terms Rome would have Supremacy.

Rome is powerful and has supremacy in the west, why would it want to lower its administrative power to that of the weaker, smaller chairs of the other apostles?
Actually, I think that Rome is going to have to modify or redefine its previous teaching on papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction for any progress to be made. It is just not acceptable to the EO as it stands now.
 

rakovsky

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Actually, I think that Rome is going to have to modify or redefine its previous teaching on papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction for any progress to be made. It is just not acceptable to the EO as it stands now.
Thank you for recognizing this. Byzantine Catholics converted to Orthodoxy "en-masse", not individually. If Catholic doctrines and practices became acceptable enough to Orthodoxy, then the Catholic church would have gone back to the pre-schism ways. Some huge service could be held to do this. This is not a big stumbling block, nor are fine points of doctrine, where people can sit down and search for the original meaning without administrative consequences.

The main stumbling block I believe is POWER.

On the Orthodox Church's terms there would be equality, but on Rome's terms Rome would have Supremacy. Rome is the largest Christian church, is exceedingly powerful, and its supremacy is obeyed in the west and by thousands of Eastern Catholics. Why would Rome settle for less?

Luther and millions of reformationist catholics wanted the Pope to abandon supremacy to the point where they split off. The Pope does not care about their "personal opinions" and modern Lutherans' pro-union "blabbering" as you say. You would need a very large majority of Roman Catholics to demand the Pope accept equality with the eastern weaklings and far-off Russians. Or you would need Orthodoxy in the east to gain as much earthly POWER before the Pope would treat the chairs of the other apostles as equal.

POWER is the main reason for the split, I believe.
 

deusveritasest

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Something close to #1. Everyone has to agree with the OO on doctrines that are fundamental to salvation, and they have to only recognize documents, councils, formulas, and concepts that are faithful to those doctrines, and reject those that are not.
 

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I voted for "RC's EO's and OO's should lift the anathemas and let each other co-exist in communion," but after having voted for that I realize that that should only be the first step. We should then work on Protestants coming back into the fold, but I do not think that will be able to happen in any large capacity until the Apostolic Churches are reunited. I hesitate to say any more than that and I especially hesitate to speculate on how such a reunion would occur as everyone has their own opinion on what would have to happen for that to take place. I don't think it's necessarily going to happen the way most think it will have to happen and I don't think it will happen at all as long as human pride gets in the way. It's going to have to be a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.
 

ialmisry

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Sloga said:
the EO and OO need to unify sooner than later and I believe it is very doable. This needs to be done on whatever grounds required and I feel a compromise between the two will not hurt any theological stands. After that, let the Romans and Protestants come to us, if they like. No budging in that area.
I second all counts.
 

ialmisry

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rakovsky said:
Papist said:
rakovsky said:
I can't believe that there are 10 people or 32 percent of the votes, that want the heretics to burn. Where's the love of God?
Maybe they are joking.
It is hard to think of someone who WANTS the heretics to burn in hell. After all, I think the evil Catholic Inquisition claimed that it was saving the people it tortured.
The physical punishments that accompanied guilty verdicts by the inquisitional courts were actually carried out by the state and not the Catholic Church.
Sure Due. I would be saying the same thing from a Catholic viewpoint. But OOPS you are missing a big point. The VERDICTS and executions were carried out by the state, but the interrogating tortures were supervised by the Catholic Church. They even put a clack cloth over the crucifix during the tortures to hide from Jesus what they were doing. I saw it on TV so I know it is true.

The point is that even while the Catholic Inquisition tortured people and its leaders approved of and were instrumental in the executions, indeed used political machinations in some cases to encourage them, the rationale was that they were saving the "heretics" from hell. The mentality though is very evil, shown by the fact that they were covering up crucifixes while doing this.

I am unaware of whether the "Office of the Holy Inquisition" was used against Orthodox. I do know that Orthodox were persecuted in Catholic countries like Austria and Poland, that the Inquisition had a very BAD reputation in Russia as seen in Dostoyevsky's works, and indeed Catholic orders had a reputation as being secretive, manipulative, and repressive, as seen by the term "Jesuitical" being used not infrequently in the Russian language to mean those things.
There's a reason for that:
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm

reminds me of the fables of the spider/scorpion/snake biting/stinging the bird/turtle helping it across the river.
 

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Wyatt said:
I voted for "RC's EO's and OO's should lift the anathemas and let each other co-exist in communion," but after having voted for that I realize that that should only be the first step. We should then work on Protestants coming back into the fold, but I do not think that will be able to happen in any large capacity until the Apostolic Churches are reunited.
It is more likely that Protestants, Orientals, and Orthodox will all join together than Catholics will join with Protestantism, Orthodoxy, and the Orientals. the reason is that the Pope considers himself Supreme, unequal, sometimes infallible, and as such demands OBEDIENCE in all matters of faith. Consequently, no one can reunite with Rome without abandoning all of their autocephaly and own separate faith beliefs.

This is reflected in Orthodox and Protestants belonging to the ecumenical WCC (whatever its faults) without the Catholic Church.

There is a huge imbalance of political power and a doctrinal obstacle about UNRIVALED SUPREMACY and OBEDIENCE that exists between the Catholic Church and all other churches.

With the reduction of the power of Bysantium/Greece and Egypt/Alexandria as ancient power-rivals, I do see a much more likely chance that power will not obscure our views and we can much more objectively review doctrinal differences while staying loyal to our own traditions and good faith ecumenism between eachother.


It may turn out that the Chalcedonian churches are closest to eachother in terms of basic foundations of understanding of God's nature, but because of the strong political power situations, (which allegedly added to problems around Chalcedon), we may be able to overcome these divisions  between the 7-Council Orthodox and Oriental churches.
 

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rakovsky said:
Wyatt said:
I voted for "RC's EO's and OO's should lift the anathemas and let each other co-exist in communion," but after having voted for that I realize that that should only be the first step. We should then work on Protestants coming back into the fold, but I do not think that will be able to happen in any large capacity until the Apostolic Churches are reunited.
It is more likely that Protestants, Orientals, and Orthodox will all join together than Catholics will join with Protestantism, Orthodoxy, and the Orientals. the reason is that the Pope considers himself Supreme, unequal, sometimes infallible, and as such demands OBEDIENCE in all matters of faith. Consequently, no one can reunite with Rome without abandoning all of their autocephaly and own separate faith beliefs.

This is reflected in Orthodox and Protestants belonging to the ecumenical WCC (whatever its faults) without the Catholic Church.

There is a huge imbalance of political power and a doctrinal obstacle about UNRIVALED SUPREMACY and OBEDIENCE that exists between the Catholic Church and all other churches.

With the reduction of the power of Bysantium/Greece and Egypt/Alexandria as ancient power-rivals, I do see a much more likely chance that power will not obscure our views and we can much more objectively review doctrinal differences while staying loyal to our own traditions and good faith ecumenism between eachother.


It may turn out that the Chalcedonian churches are closest to eachother in terms of basic foundations of understanding of God's nature, but because of the strong political power situations, (which allegedly added to problems around Chalcedon), we may be able to overcome these divisions  between the 7-Council Orthodox and Oriental churches.
It's funny that you say that. I was a Protestant all my life until I entered the Catholic Church in 2007. I, my dad, and my cousin all joined at the same time. All of us were formerly Protestant Christians. The next year a friend of mine as well as two of my dad's friends (all former Protestants) joined the Catholic Church. Right now a good friend of mine (a Protestant) is attending Catholic inquiry classes. He usually drives me to Mass and attends Mass with me because I have a disability and need transportation. Through doing this for me he has become interested in the Catholic faith.

If you have ever watched EWTN and seen the Journey Home, everyday you hear stories of mostly former Protestants who entered the Catholic Church. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for myself, the Pope never "demanded" anything from me whenever I was a Protestant. I came to Rome willingly. I would imagine the same is true for the others as well. ;)

Now that I think about it...perhaps we don't need reunion of the Apostolic Churches before reaching out to Protestants. Seems like the Protestants are coming home just fine. :)
 

ialmisry

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Wyatt said:
rakovsky said:
Wyatt said:
I voted for "RC's EO's and OO's should lift the anathemas and let each other co-exist in communion," but after having voted for that I realize that that should only be the first step. We should then work on Protestants coming back into the fold, but I do not think that will be able to happen in any large capacity until the Apostolic Churches are reunited.
It is more likely that Protestants, Orientals, and Orthodox will all join together than Catholics will join with Protestantism, Orthodoxy, and the Orientals. the reason is that the Pope considers himself Supreme, unequal, sometimes infallible, and as such demands OBEDIENCE in all matters of faith. Consequently, no one can reunite with Rome without abandoning all of their autocephaly and own separate faith beliefs.

This is reflected in Orthodox and Protestants belonging to the ecumenical WCC (whatever its faults) without the Catholic Church.

There is a huge imbalance of political power and a doctrinal obstacle about UNRIVALED SUPREMACY and OBEDIENCE that exists between the Catholic Church and all other churches.

With the reduction of the power of Bysantium/Greece and Egypt/Alexandria as ancient power-rivals, I do see a much more likely chance that power will not obscure our views and we can much more objectively review doctrinal differences while staying loyal to our own traditions and good faith ecumenism between eachother.


It may turn out that the Chalcedonian churches are closest to eachother in terms of basic foundations of understanding of God's nature, but because of the strong political power situations, (which allegedly added to problems around Chalcedon), we may be able to overcome these divisions  between the 7-Council Orthodox and Oriental churches.
It's funny that you say that. I was a Protestant all my life until I entered the Catholic Church in 2007. I, my dad, and my cousin all joined at the same time. All of us were formerly Protestant Christians. The next year a friend of mine as well as two of my dad's friends (all former Protestants) joined the Catholic Church. Right now a good friend of mine (a Protestant) is attending Catholic inquiry classes. He usually drives me to Mass and attends Mass with me because I have a disability and need transportation. Through doing this for me he has become interested in the Catholic faith.

If you have ever watched EWTN and seen the Journey Home, everyday you hear stories of mostly former Protestants who entered the Catholic Church. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for myself, the Pope never "demanded" anything from me whenever I was a Protestant. I came to Rome willingly. I would imagine the same is true for the others as well. ;)

Now that I think about it...perhaps we don't need reunion of the Apostolic Churches before reaching out to Protestants. Seems like the Protestants are coming home just fine. :)
Yes:
 

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It seems to me that reunion of churches would be easier between the EO (and old believers), OO, RC (and traditionalist catholics), ACE, and possibly but not probably the Anglican Communion than any of the other protestant churches. I say this because the churches mentioned are all single bodies with a structured (although somewhat differently) authority with the bishop as the shepherd of the local church maintained by mutual intercommunion, acceptance, and shared faith with the other bishops of that particular church. It just seems to me to be alomst impossible for any other protestant church to come into communion with any of the churches named above simply because of the differences in ecclesiology and structure of authority. They could not simply share communion but would have to convert either indiviudally as persons or at best individual parishes/churches under the authority of another church. Basically, it would be easier for the Pope of Rome, the Patriarchs of the EO, The Patriarchs of the OO, the Cathilicos(? forgive me if I use the wrong term) of the ACE, and even possibly the Archbishop of Canterbury to all come to an agreement (with their particular churches) than it would for even one of the churches mentioned here to come to an agreement with any protestant denomination as a whole. Lutherans have enough liturgical tradition to possibly establish a distinct liturgical rite under the authority of another jurisdiction but lack the ecclesiological organization to just declare intercommunion with any of the churches mentioned here.

Just an observation.
 

rakovsky

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Wyatt said:
rakovsky said:
Wyatt said:
I voted for "RC's EO's and OO's should lift the anathemas and let each other co-exist in communion," but after having voted for that I realize that that should only be the first step. We should then work on Protestants coming back into the fold, but I do not think that will be able to happen in any large capacity until the Apostolic Churches are reunited.
It is more likely that Protestants, Orientals, and Orthodox will all join together than Catholics will join with Protestantism, Orthodoxy, and the Orientals. the reason is that the Pope considers himself Supreme, unequal, sometimes infallible, and as such demands OBEDIENCE in all matters of faith. Consequently, no one can reunite with Rome without abandoning all of their autocephaly and own separate faith beliefs.

This is reflected in Orthodox and Protestants belonging to the ecumenical WCC (whatever its faults) without the Catholic Church.

There is a huge imbalance of political power and a doctrinal obstacle about UNRIVALED SUPREMACY and OBEDIENCE that exists between the Catholic Church and all other churches.

With the reduction of the power of Bysantium/Greece and Egypt/Alexandria as ancient power-rivals, I do see a much more likely chance that power will not obscure our views and we can much more objectively review doctrinal differences while staying loyal to our own traditions and good faith ecumenism between eachother.


It may turn out that the Chalcedonian churches are closest to eachother in terms of basic foundations of understanding of God's nature, but because of the strong political power situations, (which allegedly added to problems around Chalcedon), we may be able to overcome these divisions  between the 7-Council Orthodox and Oriental churches.
It's funny that you say that. I was a Protestant all my life until I entered the Catholic Church in 2007. I, my dad, and my cousin all joined at the same time. All of us were formerly Protestant Christians. The next year a friend of mine as well as two of my dad's friends (all former Protestants) joined the Catholic Church. Right now a good friend of mine (a Protestant) is attending Catholic inquiry classes. He usually drives me to Mass and attends Mass with me because I have a disability and need transportation. Through doing this for me he has become interested in the Catholic faith.

If you have ever watched EWTN and seen the Journey Home, everyday you hear stories of mostly former Protestants who entered the Catholic Church. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for myself, the Pope never "demanded" anything from me whenever I was a Protestant. I came to Rome willingly. I would imagine the same is true for the others as well. ;)

Now that I think about it...perhaps we don't need reunion of the Apostolic Churches before reaching out to Protestants. Seems like the Protestants are coming home just fine. :)
My 2 cents: Protestants should come home to Catholic Church, with apostolic succession and subjection to church traditions. Catholics should, if possible, urge their leaders to abandon inventions of the early Middle Ages- the filioque, papal infallibility, required obedience to pope in all matters of faith, purgatory.

Luther might have thrown the baby out with the bath water, but there was alot of bath water with accumulated baby fluids.


I like Catholics. Only bad thing is if the "Leadership" abuses them, and says they "MUST" bow down as if it is vicar of Christ on earth or something.

Regards, Sympathies, and Blessings on your spiritual journey.
 
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