• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Christmas cash:

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,561
Reaction score
265
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
stanley123 said:
That is what I was thinking. And we celebrate both the popular and religious aspects of Christmas. However, some missionaries came to my door and they read the following passage from the Bible: "(Jer 10:2-4) Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.  For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."
According to what these missionaries say, Christmas trees, etc., are forbidden by the Bible.
The bible is speaking about Idols and not Christmas trees.
I actually have my tree up already. This has never bin a problem for me. Besides. It's no longer called a Christmas tree in New York. It's called a Holiday tree. :eek: They don't leave anyone out of filling the economy with money. :laugh:
My problem is with Santa Claus ;D. He is an imaginary figure. And yes. My kids do sit on his lap to take pictures at the mall. My point is that it is easier to teach children Christianity when society conforms with Christs teaching. If Santa Claus was St. basil instead. The child would instantly know who we venerate and why. It makes the job much easier for a Christian parent. Wheather we like it or not society is the largest influence on people. Have you ever heard the expression you are what you eat. Or, You are a product of your society. Well if society was Byzantine roman there would most certainly be many more Christians. Where is GIC when you need him. :-X
 

EofK

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
3,976
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
43
Location
Springfield, MO
Ian Lazarus said:
On Christliturgy Eve, I like to melt pepermints in whipped cream and put them into pie pans and pummel passers by with them and say "BAH HUMBUG TO YOUR HOLIDAY TREES AND YOUR FAT SANTAMEN!" 

Later that evening, I go to confession.
ROFL!   ;D  I thought I was going to get a tasty recipe out of that.  
 

EofK

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
3,976
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
43
Location
Springfield, MO
ytterbiumanalyst said:
It's a wonderful feeling to look forward to Christmas without the imposed responsibility of buying so much stuff. It actually makes Christmas enjoyable.
Indeed it is.  And I can't wait that long to give gifts. 
 

Amdetsion

High Elder
Joined
Nov 22, 2004
Messages
931
Reaction score
0
Points
0
stanley123 said:
That is what I was thinking. And we celebrate both the popular and religious aspects of Christmas. However, some missionaries came to my door and they read the following passage from the Bible: "(Jer 10:2-4) Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.  For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."
According to what these missionaries say, Christmas trees, etc., are forbidden by the Bible.
What do you think God is communicating in this passage?

It is clear to me from the reading that all the common acts we find with christmas trees are noted plainly down to nailing the wooden base on the bottom so that it could stand up and be decorated with silver and gold etc.

Does not take much smarts to see that.

I do not think it is about the "Christmas tree" persay. But more about the activities common to hearthens and gentiles in general that are not for us (chosen) to immitate or to be associated with in ANY way. WE are not to be influenced by the world but the world is to be influenced by us.

These customs are not distructive as it is stated but DO NOT edify God and His Glory. As such we should not be rendered as part of these acts even if such rendering is by association and not so much practice.

Seems the Lord is saying if you are not a horse than you should not seem to be one either...Look like a horse, smell like a horse than you are a horse...even if by nature do to association.

It seems that the teaching is that if we are christians we are to stand in Gods glory alone and avoid worldly vanities and practices that keep us grounded in our former selves when were dead...people of the world.....none believers.

This is what is preached in the Ethiopian and Coptic community on this reading.

As such most Ethiopian Christians refrain from putting up trees at all or any of the other what I call 'winterfestive' decorations and symbols in our homes or Church buildings.

We ( I ) do not frown on those who practice there orthodox faith with these activities and symbols. Its just not for us.

I do find that this is changing in America by some Ethiopians. But even these people say they are doing it for the kids and will stop it soon as the kids are bigger.

It seems that each of us have to decide what is best for us.

German people are very connected to these traditions which is to be expected.

America is the land of the protestant and as such has evolved as a pot puree of cultures and not so much by the virtues of the church. These cultural elements were weaved into the protestant mind in general and thus American idealism and way of life which is the main stay and core of the protestant American way of life. To this mindset these activities and images are christian...period.

Americas global influenced ahs helped to push these ideals to other nations as wholely christian activities.  
 

Sophie

Sr. Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
218
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
44
Location
Spain
Amdetsion said:
What do you think God is communicating in this passage?

It is clear to me from the reading that all the common acts we find with christmas trees are noted plainly down to nailing the wooden base on the bottom so that it could stand up and be decorated with silver and gold etc.
For one, most of the people I know will not even have a real tree at home. Cannot afford to throw money every year or are ecologists where trees are concerned(Right, what does throwing a Christmas tree after Christmas mean? ). Plastic trees come with a tripod, they fold and can be stored away.

Secondly, while I see some of the points en contre Christmas trees, reading the posts, one of my fondest memories as a child came to mind: that of falling asleep next to our (plastic) Christmas tree with its lights on, staring at the little "fatni" (sorry, I do not know the english word for that) complete with Joseph, Mary, little Jesus, the Magi and the shepherds as well as the animals, at its bottom where the tree lights stood like stars above them. As a kid, this was one of my more religious experiences. It made me think about the birth of Jesus. I cannot wait to get back home for the holidays. We still have the same fatni. :laugh:

As for presents, there will be less these year. We have so much stuff, it is not as it used to be. The gift will be getting together for the holidays.

 

Schultz

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
6,699
Reaction score
8
Points
38
Age
47
Location
BaltiCORE, MD
Website
www.theidlegossip.com
Amdetsion said:
Americas global influenced ahs helped to push these ideals to other nations as wholely christian activities.  
I would actually think that it's more the influence of the remnants of the British Empire and the stamp left by Anglican missionaries (who love nothing more than Christmas season) more than the America's global influence, although I certainly would not discount such an influence.

I do believe you've hit the nail on the head.  I would definitely find it odd for an Ethiopian living in the United States to have a Christmas tree, but I certainly would not tell him that he was not celebrating Christmas properly because he didn't have one.  Conversely, I would find it very offensive for him to tell me that my use of an evergreen tree does not glorify or edify God when the entire reason for me bringing a tree into my house is to do just that.  On the Christmas before his death, His Holines Pope John Paul II said that the evergreen Christmas tree is an ancient and wonderful custom that "exalts the value of life" because the coniferous tree does not change during winter and the gifts below it symbolize Christ, "God's greatest gift to all men."

Father Deacon, I do not think you mean to sound like a triumphalist or derogatory towards very near and dear Christian customs at this time of year, but you certainly are coming off as such.  What the secular world does with Christian traditions does not concern me: God is not mocked and He certainly does not need me to defend Him.  But what does concern me is when one Christian denigrates another Christian's closely held traditions (note: small "t") because the World has co-opted it for their own purposes and watered it down, so to speak.  

In necessasariis, unitas;
In dubiis, libertas;
in omnibus, caritas.
 

stanley123

Protokentarchos
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
3,817
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Faith
Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction
USA
Amdetsion said:
What do you think God is communicating in this passage?  
Would it be OK if we have a Christmas tree and put a nativity scene under it?
 

aserb

OC.Net Guru
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
66
Location
Valley Forge, PA
One does not have to eschew the so-called popular aspects of the Christmas season in order to keep the fast and prepare for the coming of Holy Infant Jesus.  As with most everything, it's how (and why!) you do it, not what you do.

I liked what Schultz said so much I am going to re-post it here.
 

Amdetsion

High Elder
Joined
Nov 22, 2004
Messages
931
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Schultz said:
I would actually think that it's more the influence of the remnants of the British Empire and the stamp left by Anglican missionaries (who love nothing more than Christmas season) more than the America's global influence, although I certainly would not discount such an influence.

I do believe you've hit the nail on the head.  I would definitely find it odd for an Ethiopian living in the United States to have a Christmas tree, but I certainly would not tell him that he was not celebrating Christmas properly because he didn't have one.  Conversely, I would find it very offensive for him to tell me that my use of an evergreen tree does not glorify or edify God when the entire reason for me bringing a tree into my house is to do just that.  On the Christmas before his death, His Holines Pope John Paul II said that the evergreen Christmas tree is an ancient and wonderful custom that "exalts the value of life" because the coniferous tree does not change during winter and the gifts below it symbolize Christ, "God's greatest gift to all men."

Father Deacon, I do not think you mean to sound like a triumphalist or derogatory towards very near and dear Christian customs at this time of year, but you certainly are coming off as such.  What the secular world does with Christian traditions does not concern me: God is not mocked and He certainly does not need me to defend Him.  But what does concern me is when one Christian denigrates another Christian's closely held traditions (note: small "t") because the World has co-opted it for their own purposes and watered it down, so to speak.  

In necessasariis, unitas;
In dubiis, libertas;
in omnibus, caritas.
It is beyond me why you and others want to punish me for my opinions. I am not the enemy.

I am not guilty of being derrogatory toward these traditions.

But if you want to see derrogatory look around and see all the worse abusers of your heart held traditons. These people have taken your 'religious' traditions and turned them into common money making schemes complete with half naked women dancing in "Santa" bikinis with the Christmas tree in the back ground a virtual burlesque show. This of course is the so called "Christmas spectacular" held each year at Radio City Music Hall in NYC. They care not for the nice the good things these things really mean to you and those like you. They want them to mean something else. And it has worked.

These people has made these traditions embarrassing and insulting.

We need people like you to stand up and defend the true nature of these traditions. Then maybe people like me can have a better opinion of these traditions and maybe use them to some degree. These traditions are very beautiful to the eye but I have a hard time standing in traditions with people who are not believers. I have nothing in common with these people. For example I just got a picture card from a muslim co worker of his kids sitting in front of what is called a Christmas tree. A MUSLIM....with a Christmas tree.....That's my point. If all the partakers of the tradition were like you than its good.

These folks are your enemy. They want to own these traditions and have worked hard to redefine these traditions. In NYC the Christmas Tree is now the Holiday Tree. So much for Christmas. Now what was specifically Christian is now 'whatever'.

Sadly there is nobody to defend these traditions. Not even you.

As you said God does need your defense.

I am taught that we (the true believers) are the defenders of the faith.

The Martyrs tasted bitter death for the faith.

I mean you no harm.

I hope you continue to build on your tradition with more and more Christ centeredness.
 

Mo the Ethio

Elder
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
453
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
57
Location
USA
Deacon:Give it a freakin break already! 
I am buying gifts and I have a freaking Christmas Tree. If you don`t like it, tough.If you believe it is a sin, well that is between God and myself. I think you should keep your opinion about American Christmas traditions to yourself as it is clearly NOT leading to anyone`s salvation and causing a bit of hostility . I don`t care if you are a deacon or not. And yes , I have spoken to my Priest in a like manner i.e. man to man . Please stop using your office as a soapbox to force your uninformed opinions down the throats of the laity and spend more time praying for those that you claim to be to worried about.                  MO
 

Eleos

Elder
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Messages
262
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Dear Dcn Amde,
Love.
I give Christmas presents to my friends and family because I love them.  This is one way that I choose to express it.  The gifts are the fruit of my labor.  I still find the occasion of the birth of Christ to be the most fitting time for giving materially to those I love.  For me, the reason for gift giving is connected to how I understand the Incarnation.  The Incarnation is the complete giving of the immaterial God to the material world by humbling Himself and assuming our nature.  Giving a gift means that the wealth that I obtained, however small, is not worth holding onto to serve my own desire, will or glory.  Giving a portion of the fruit of my efforts to my loved ones for their joy is one way that I can imitate what it is that I perceive in Christ's incarnation and birth.  I was taught by my Roman Catholic mum that the birth of Christ is the ultimate tangible gift from which all good things in this world flow and are blessed, and that the tradition of exchanging gifts is an extension of it.  I will not stop this in my household.  I believe that the calls for moderation in the commercial side of Christmas in this thread are warranted.  Truly I cannot keep up with my non-believing neighbors anyways when it comes to decor, extravagance etc.  Im ok with that.  Im ok with putting up modest lights since Christ is the illumination of the world.  It is fitting to do this on the occasion of His birth to me.  It is a good time for me to talk to my kids about the symbolism and reclaim my heritage.
I make no apologies for our Christmas traditions.  If you were on the west coast, your family would be invited to enjoy it with us.  I have much respect for you and the points that you have made so far (as for everyone here).  I'll remember them and strive to be moderate this season, which shouldnt be a problem because I was broke already at the beginning of November.
Thanks
 
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
2,743
Reaction score
4
Points
0
There is something very wrong with this thread.

We have one poster who judgmentally condemns Fr. Amdetsion's genuine attempt to promote Christian charity as boastful and prideful simply because he chooses to use his own family's activites as an example, yet that very same poster responds to another poster's insight into the personal activities of their own family with: "Great idea!"

We have another poster who tries to shut up Fr. Amdetsion's perspective because it has allegedly inspired hostility when in fact his post is clearly the only aggressive and hostile post in the entire thread.

I cannot help but think that the one true Enemy has a problem with Fr. Amdetsion's attempt to encourage a Christ-centered approach to Christmas and that as such he has subtly tried to dilute that message in a sea of false accusations, judgments, misunderstandings and aggressiveness.

Mo the Ethio,

Some specific points for you to consider:

1) You haven't read all of Fr. Amdetsion's posts have you? That's quite alright, not all of us always have the time to read through an entire thread before responding to it. It's simply not practical most of the time. Anyway, you should know that in light of his latest posts, Fr. Amdetsion has clearly implied that he would not have a problem with the fact you have a Christmas tree or that you exchange Christmas gifts per se. He has considered other posters' perspectives as to how such activities can be exercised with a Christian spirit and has not attempted to debate the idea that they are in fact originally religious traditions; he has humbly conceded to these points and has encouraged others to promote that Christian spirit within a society which has, by and large, ignored the religious aspect and meaning of such activities.

2) I don't see Fr. Amdetsion trying to force his perspective down anyone's throat. Approach his posts with more careful discernment, patience, and a spirit of charity that is inclined to understanding one in the best light possible, as opposed to the worst light possible, and that much will be evident to you.

3) I don't see Fr. Amdetsion "using his office" for anything. He was practically forced to refer to his clerical position so as to preserve the integrity of his message which came under fire as a result of accusations regarding his personal intentions.

I am not going to say more on this issue, because I do not wish to contribute to satan's agenda to continue diluting the essence of Fr. Amdetsion's point by allowing the thread to further regress into a debate about Fr. Amdetsion's character and intentions.
 

Schultz

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
6,699
Reaction score
8
Points
38
Age
47
Location
BaltiCORE, MD
Website
www.theidlegossip.com
Amdetsion said:
It is beyond me why you and others want to punish me for my opinions. I am not the enemy.
Father Deacon,

Please forgive me if I made it sound like I want to punish you for your opinions.  Am I not merely giving my own?  Did I not even give you the benefit of the doubt in my own post and state that I do not think you mean to be derogatory towards certain Christmas traditions but that you may unintentionally be coming off as such? 

But if you want to see derrogatory look around and see all the worse abusers of your heart held traditons...
Of course it makes me sad to see a symbol such as the Christmas tree turned into a money-making scheme by opportunists who care not one iota for the "reason for the season" as the saying goes.  But their sin does not make a valid and licit practice null and void.  Does the money-making secular use of the Easter egg during Pascha make the old and venerable practice of handing out dyed eggs during the Paschal Service null and void?  I don't know if you do that in the Ethiopian Church or even in the OO communion, but it is definitely a well loved practice in the European Orthodox churches. 

These people has made these traditions embarrassing and insulting.
Perhaps.  But they can also be used as evangelism tools.  Countless unchurched have no idea why they put up a tree in their house.  A Christian can easily turn it into a good thing and preach the Gospel to someone who really thinks Christmas is about fat men in red suits and tree decorating.  God has a wonderful knack of turning evil into good, no?

We need people like you to stand up and defend the true nature of these traditions. Then maybe people like me can have a better opinion of these traditions and maybe use them to some degree. These traditions are very beautiful to the eye but I have a hard time standing in traditions with people who are not believers. I have nothing in common with these people. For example I just got a picture card from a muslim co worker of his kids sitting in front of what is called a Christmas tree. A MUSLIM....with a Christmas tree.....That's my point. If all the partakers of the tradition were like you than its good.
I do indeed thank you for your high opinion of my defense.  Sadly, the Christian origin of many elements of our Western culture have either been forgotten or revised in the past 200 years since the so-called Enlightenment.  Both Pope Benedict XVI and Patriarch Alexy of Russia have spoken recently on the need for Christan Europe to reclaim its Christian heritage.  By extension, the United States must do so.  That is not to say that we need a theocracy, but that people should recognize what they are doing and why they are doing it.  As I wrote above, it is up to believing and practicing Christians to "be not afraid" (as per the late PJP2's motto) and to use these Christian symbols that are so culturally ingrained to re-evangelize people who have forgotten the meaning of these symbols.  This is one place where the buck does stop with me and I do, in my own humble way, try to tell friends what things mean and, again with all humility, without coming across as a zealot.  Thankfully, my interest in general symbology is well known amongst my friends and I'd like to think that I can use that knowledge as a means of evanglization.  Sometimes I even do it without thinking about it. 

These folks are your enemy. They want to own these traditions and have worked hard to redefine these traditions. In NYC the Christmas Tree is now the Holiday Tree. So much for Christmas. Now what was specifically Christian is now 'whatever'.
I prefer to look upon most of them as lost sheep, not as wolves.  To be sure, there are wolves among the pack, but most people are simply lost sheep in the wilderness.  While I'm certainly no shepherd, perhaps I can be a bit of sheep dog and nudge them towards the Divine Shepherd.

As you said God does need your defense.

I am taught that we (the true believers) are the defenders of the faith.
Of course we are to be defenders of the faith.  However, God does not need us to do so.  It is our duty to do so, but God does not need our pithy help in proclaiming His glory.  We are far too ill equipped to even begin to appreciate His love for us in the first place.

I mean you no harm.

I hope you continue to build on your tradition with more and more Christ centeredness.
And I mean you none, Father Deacon, and please forgive me if I have harmed you.  I was simply trying to point out that some of your well placed invective towards those who would use Christ like Simon Magus has possibly and inadvertently spilled over to those of us who are trying to proclaim Christ through our own particular ways using well-established Christian symbols.  Ethiopians have thankfully not lost sight of the origins of many of their customs while Europeans have unfortunately all but forgotten (or ignored) much of their Christian past.  It is the fault of those of us who still believe that our customs are now dead ritual to much of the world. 

But that still doesn't mean we can't circle the wagons, so to speak, and begin a campaign of Subersive Evangelization using the very symbols that have been taken from us.
 

Amdetsion

High Elder
Joined
Nov 22, 2004
Messages
931
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Mo the Ethio said:
Deacon:Give it a freakin break already! 
I am buying gifts and I have a freaking Christmas Tree. If you don`t like it, tough.If you believe it is a sin, well that is between God and myself. I think you should keep your opinion about American Christmas traditions to yourself as it is clearly NOT leading to anyone`s salvation and causing a bit of hostility . I don`t care if you are a deacon or not. And yes , I have spoken to my Priest in a like manner i.e. man to man . Please stop using your office as a soapbox to force your uninformed opinions down the throats of the laity and spend more time praying for those that you claim to be to worried about.                  MO
I am sorry for this awkward and distorded post quoted above.

Lord have mercy...

TO ALL::

I want to thank all of those who posted thus far and avoided the kind of unfortunate discourse displayed above even when we did not agree or felt offended.

I have learned allot thus far; even about my views on this matter.

All the posts before this one allowed this discussion to be productive and peaceful during this Advent time of personal reflection and restraint as we prepare for the birth of our Savior Jesus Christ.

I pray that those who have something positive to offer do so and not let the biligerant and bitter comments of one person undo what we are working out together on this thread.

Give God the Glory!!!

Hallelewyah!!!

 

Amdetsion

High Elder
Joined
Nov 22, 2004
Messages
931
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Somebody had mentioned something about why 'candles' are placed in the windows. It was stated that this was a symbol of hospitality to welcome the Christ in contrast to the dark windows of the Inns that did not recieve Him.

I was very moved by that.

I have never heard this before.

I would like to know more about this if someone may offer.

I asked my wife if she would like to put up a single candle on Christmas eve. One in each window as I have seen in homes in my nieghborhood. If we do this this it will be the first time I used any kind of holiday lights on my house. Of course we would use the light candles and not traditional wax type candles.

If I do it I want to buy them form an orthodox church source or some kind of church source. I still feel that we should avoid giving our money to non beleiving merchants looking to make a profit on our religious traditions. I am the type that will not buy any kind of Christian type object form anyone but an orthodox source. I will not go to a jeweler for a cross or wedding ring unless it is owned by an orthodox christian. That is my way. I know all of us may not be so extreme.

Can anyone suggest a source?

I was thinking also (as an option) of a lite cross for each window in lieu of the candle lite. Where can I find this?

Thanks
 

Veniamin

Archon
Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Messages
3,372
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Texas
Okay, everyone, I know the purple demons are out and about with it being the fast and all, but let's try not to let tempers get in the way of discussion.  Charity's not just for the Salvation Army guys, okay? ~Veniamin
 

admiralnick

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
1,886
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
38
Location
Greater Milwaukee Area
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Serbian Orthodox Church - Midwest
Amdetsion said:
If I do it I want to buy them form an orthodox church source or some kind of church source. I still feel that we should avoid giving our money to non beleiving merchants looking to make a profit on our religious traditions. I am the type that will not buy any kind of Christian type object form anyone but an orthodox source. I will not go to a jeweler for a cross or wedding ring unless it is owned by an orthodox christian. That is my way. I know all of us may not be so extreme.
[my 2 cents]

Fr. Dn.:

While I appreciate your "purist" view on issues, I'm starting to become a little offended at the way you constantly bash the economic system that is prevelant in the United States. Merchants are in business to make money, not to be Orthodox. Even the Orthodox Merchants are "making a profit on religious traditions" as you put it. If all of the goods you purchase were sold to you at cost, how would the Orthodox Merchants have any money to support the church, feed their families, give alms to the poor, etc.? Check the prices of items at any Orthodox Merchants' place of business and they will tell you that they are marking up the items they sell for a profit. While a free market economy may not be the Orthodox way to view the world, it is the world that we live in. This world revolves around buying and selling and making a profit. Are you telling me that you are paid only for the costs you incur to travel to and from work and not interested in making a profit? I assume that since you aren't making a profit that you've never gotten a pay increase greater than the rate of inflation. I assume also, that you use public transportation to travel everywhere, that you don't buy any luxury items, and that you don't have a TV or Internet connection at home. If you wish to share your opinion that its wrong to do this, this, and this, thats fine, you are free to do whatever you want.

If you continue to attack the U.S. and their Economy, then I don't feel that you're any better than MO in your writings.

[/my 2 cents]

-Nick
 

aserb

OC.Net Guru
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
66
Location
Valley Forge, PA
I usually do not inquire as to the faith of the merchant's that I frequent. As for electric window candles they can be purchased at Wal-Mart. They are not considered a religious item in the United States. I have never seen electric candles sold by an Orthodox Religious supply store.

AS for Admirial Nick's comments I could not agree more.  America is a land of tremendous economic opportunity and grants its citizens freedoms found no where else in the world permitting all of us, if we work hard or smart, to prosper, worship as we like without fear and not go to bed hungry at night.

You are free to voice any opinion you like, I or others do not have to like it or agree. But a little gratitude would be in order I think for this nation, despite any shortcomings.
 

Amdetsion

High Elder
Joined
Nov 22, 2004
Messages
931
Reaction score
0
Points
0
admiralnick said:
[my 2 cents]

Fr. Dn.:

While I appreciate your "purist" view on issues, I'm starting to become a little offended at the way you constantly bash the economic system that is prevelant in the United States. Merchants are in business to make money, not to be Orthodox. Even the Orthodox Merchants are "making a profit on religious traditions" as you put it. If all of the goods you purchase were sold to you at cost, how would the Orthodox Merchants have any money to support the church, feed their families, give alms to the poor, etc.? Check the prices of items at any Orthodox Merchants' place of business and they will tell you that they are marking up the items they sell for a profit. While a free market economy may not be the Orthodox way to view the world, it is the world that we live in. This world revolves around buying and selling and making a profit. Are you telling me that you are paid only for the costs you incur to travel to and from work and not interested in making a profit? I assume that since you aren't making a profit that you've never gotten a pay increase greater than the rate of inflation. I assume also, that you use public transportation to travel everywhere, that you don't buy any luxury items, and that you don't have a TV or Internet connection at home. If you wish to share your opinion that its wrong to do this, this, and this, thats fine, you are free to do whatever you want.

If you continue to attack the U.S. and their Economy, then I don't feel that you're any better than MO in your writings.

[/my 2 cents]

-Nick
I am only talking about merchandise that has a direct correlation with my faith as an orthodox christian only.

This would have nothing to do with cars, transportation, and the various myriad goods and services needed which helps to spin the economy.

Let me be clear; I am speaking only about 'christian' or 'christian' related merchandise such as bibles, crosses, icons, wedding rings, baptismal gowns, vestments, pews and the like and if possible "christmas decorations". I am not concerned with bus tickets, cars, glass jars, jeans, computors, groceries, houses, furniture, etc etc. These things are the things that we purchase in a competitive and open market. NO problem. I buy such things where I can get the best price.

Church and christian related merchandies in my mind belongs within a closed market (or as closed as possible which is within the church community). I do not like buying faith related things from people who would are not interested in my faith.  

This is a personal choice of mine.

Please note:

I only buy American cars because I feel strongly that this type of durable good has a very serious impact on so many areas of the American and world market. So since I am a beneficiary from the American market I feel that my money should go to the American market. Buying an American car supports multitudes of the American market. This is a personal choice of mine. People are entitled to buy what they want in America. It is a choice.

I try to only buy clothing from American companies as well for the same reason. I take time to check out who owns the companies. I feel that America should get something back from me since I get something out. It is really simple thinking.

I mean the same for the church. When I am in need of something like a new cross or bible I go to monastaries or church book stores; not K mart or the local jewler who is possibly an enemy of the faith. I do not know...

"Buy Christian" and support our faith and church is my thinking. If my christian brother is making a profit that is his blessing. That is my point exactly.

For everything else "Buy American" and support the land where we live if America makes a profit; just as fine. But to have christian related products being sold in the common market...I disagree. Let our fellow christians make a profit on these things without having to compete with non-beleivers.

I can not stop people from selling christian related products in the common market. It is the right of people to sell what people want.

To date all my religious materials are from monastaries and churches or form businesses owned by fellow orthodox. And I am sure that a profit was made. If not than there is a real problem....
 

serb1389

Merarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
9,123
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Vallejo, CA (current); Gurnee, IL (greater Chicag
Website
www.greekorthodoxvallejo.org
So let's say that an Icon is sold by the schizmatics down the road (literally in my world). 

Do I not buy it?  Is it any less holy?  Is it no longer the image of christ, or the saint?  Does it no longer participate in the prototype?

Are we Iconoclasts?

All good questions.  Of course we should SUPPORT orthodox purveyors of religious goods.  However, that just might not be feasible for some.  So where does that put us? 

I think theologically there is little or no backing to what you are saying.  Just pious beliefs.  Which are not bad in and of themselves, but do not condition the church (theologically speaking). 

I'm not saying go wild in supporting the heretics, or whatever they are.  But this doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer, and that it cannot be 'christianized' by the church. 


 
Top