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Christmas was Christ really born on the 25th of December????

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LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
 

Romaios

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The Conception of St. John the Baptist + September 23

John the Forerunner, the fruit of prayer, hath budded from a barren womb today. Rejoice, O wilderness, and dance for joy, O mankind! Behold, the preacher of repentance beginneth to take flesh in his mother’s womb. Come, as we rejoice over his glorious conception, O ye feast-lovers, let us form a choir, crying: O thou greatest of them that are born of women, cease not to intercede for us who with faith honor thy divine conception, that we may find forgiveness of sins and Great Mercy.

--Doxasticon from Great Vespers, Tone 6

Rejoice, O barren one, who had not given birth; for behold thou hast conceived clearly the one who is the dawn of the Sun Who was about to illuminate the whole universe, blighted with sightlessness. Shout in joy, O Zacharias, crying in favour, Verily, the one to be born is a Prophet of the High.

--Troparion, Tone 4

The Synaxarion:

This came to pass fifteen months before the birth of Christ, after the vision of the Angel that Zacharias, the father of the Forerunner, saw in the Temple while he executed the priest's office in the order of his course during the feast of the Tabernacles [close to Yom Kippur, which Chrysostom mentions in his homily], as tradition bears witness. In this vision, the Archangel Gabriel appeared to Zacharias and said to him, "Thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John" (Luke 1:13). Knowing that Elizabeth was barren, and that both he and she were elderly, Zacharias did not believe what the Angel told him, although he had before him the example of Abraham and Sarah, of Hannah, mother of the Prophet Samuel, and of other barren women in Israel who gave birth by the power of God. Hence, he was condemned by the Archangel to remain speechless until the fulfilment of these words in their season, which also came to pass (Luke 1:7-24).

Source
 

LBK

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.

 
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LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
But he was NOT the High Priest.  THE HIGH PRIEST did not serve in courses...Temple priests did, sorry. Priests would serve only when it was their week on rotation and on feast days (and even then their function was decided by lot).  It CLEARLY states that he was of the course (rotation) of Abiyah and his lot was incense...this had nothing to do with the permanent High Priest.

Here is a historical listing of all the High Priests for the time period in question:



Simon ben Boethus 23-5 BC (his daughter Mariamne was third wife of Herod the Great)
Matthias ben Theophilus 5-4 BC
Joazar ben Boethus 4 BC (Sadducee)
Eleazar ben Boethus 4-3 BC (Sadducee)
Joshua ben Sie 3 -1 BC
Joazar ben Boethus 1 - 6 CE (Sadducee)
Ananus ben Seth 6-15 CE
Ishmael ben Fabus 15-16 CE
Eleazar ben Ananus 16-17 CE
Simon ben Camithus 17-18 CE
Joseph Caiaphas 18-36 CE
Jonathan ben Ananus 36-37 CE
Theophilus ben Ananus 37-41 CE
 

Shanghaiski

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biro said:
zoarthegleaner said:
Time in the West became relative through the discipling of the nations under Latin Roman Catholicism giving world The Gregorian Calendar Reformation.  Sectarianism arose, first in the Monasteries, then Universities and then like fire in the minds of men.


John
That's right, it's all the evil Roman Catholics again. Tell me, is anybody else ever responsible for anything?
Of course, silly! The Jews and the Mohammedans. Oh, and the Freemasons. Sometimes they all get together.
 

Shanghaiski

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LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
No sense arguing with heretics.
 Calm down your rhetorics andd stop calling peole names.

7 days

MK
 
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Shanghaiski said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
No sense arguing with heretics.
The truth is NEVER heresy...the truth is only heresy to heretics.
 

Shanghaiski

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shanghaiski said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
No sense arguing with heretics.
The truth is NEVER heresy...the truth is only heresy to heretics.
Says the one who makes his own truth, rather than believing the real truth which is only in the Orthodox Church.
 
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Shanghaiski said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shanghaiski said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
No sense arguing with heretics.
The truth is NEVER heresy...the truth is only heresy to heretics.
Says the one who makes his own truth, rather than believing the real truth which is only in the Orthodox Church.
I didn't make ANY of this up...all truth is "real" truth.  Church fathers are sometimes wrong. 
 

biro

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shanghaiski said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shanghaiski said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
No sense arguing with heretics.
The truth is NEVER heresy...the truth is only heresy to heretics.
Says the one who makes his own truth, rather than believing the real truth which is only in the Orthodox Church.
I didn't make ANY of this up...all truth is "real" truth.  Church fathers are sometimes wrong. 
Good luck with that.
 
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biro said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shanghaiski said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shanghaiski said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
No sense arguing with heretics.
The truth is NEVER heresy...the truth is only heresy to heretics.
Says the one who makes his own truth, rather than believing the real truth which is only in the Orthodox Church.
I didn't make ANY of this up...all truth is "real" truth.  Church fathers are sometimes wrong. 
Good luck with that.
Why...church fathers are not infallible...
 
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Shanghaiski said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Shanghaiski said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LBK said:
Yeshua HaDerekh, the Orthodox teaching on who Zachariah was (both High Priest and father of St John the Baptist) is crystal-clear.
It does not say anywhere in scripture that he was THE HIGH PRIEST. He served in the course of Abiyah...with other priests in the Temple...THAT is crystal clear in Scripture.  That "teaching" is tradition, not Tradition...not salvatical.
Nonsense. Orthodox hymns and icons express what the whole Church believes and espouses. It draws from Scripture, Apostolic tradition, and other sources such as the writings of the Fathers. And the hymns of the Church, both in my earlier post, and in Romaios' post, clearly proclaim Zachariah to be both High Priest, and the father of St John the Baptist.
No sense arguing with heretics.
The truth is NEVER heresy...the truth is only heresy to heretics.
Says the one who makes his own truth, rather than believing the real truth which is only in the Orthodox Church.
So you would rather believe that The Scriptures are fallible but the church fathers are not?
 

Deacon Lance

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Deacon Lance said:
Everybody knows that the Dec 25 celebration of Christ's birth was handed down to us from the Apostles.  The Theotokos relayed this information to St. Luke while she posed for the fist Icon.  ::)
I hope you were joking. #1 jews at that time did NOT celebrate dates of birth but remembered dates of death. #2 the Apostles did no such thing and #3 yeshua's real date of birth can easily be calculated if you understand certain things regarding John the Baptist's birth and his father's service in the temple.
Yes it was a joke hence the roll eyes.
 

FatherHLL

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Father H said:
pinkbutterfly79 said:
 Hi all i have recently come to the understanding that December 25th is not the day that Christ was born, or this is what i was led to believe. One of my friends that was once catholic, then baptized Orthodox, and now recently joined and evangelical church, went on a rant last year on how she learned that Christmas is a pagan holiday and if we continue to celebrate it that we are in turn giving our worship to something other than Christ. I do understand that we do not know the exact date of Christ's birth we can only speculate as to when it happened, i also know that it could have been at another time, and this date was set as a day to celebrate Christ's birth cause we do not know when he was born. .  I want to know what the Church's point of view is on this and what do you think about it. . . If it is so pagan is it wrong to celebrate his birth on this given day?  Thanks all!!!!

St. John Chrysostom relates that in his day, it was a recent switch to Dec. 25, as Antioch had previously celebrated Nativity with Theophany on the same day.  Yet, because the imperial archives in Rome (from pagan imperial historian hands prior, yet with consensus of the Christians) showed that Christ's birth was Dec. 25, that the rest of the Church followed.    
Yes, once again Rome was involved and others blindly followed...
What is your problem?  It was not "custom" but a matter of historical record, both of church record and even of pagan record.  While the pagan record is not extant, St. John's reference is a historical reference. 
 
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