Church Invisible

Seafra

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Volnutt said:
Seafra said:
Matthew 16:18...
quite simply the church is this church that Christ said will not be beaten, i see Christendom in three churches... Protestant church most DEFINITELY does not fall into this category, the Catholic church has not prevailed... they have changed shifted and swayed in their traditions and doctrines. In my research this only leaves Orthodoxy to remain as a church who is steadfast against changing traditions and upholding that which was past down!
That argument isn't going to wash unless you define "beaten." Protestants, other than Anglicans and Scandinavian Lutherans, define the Church prevailing as there being gatherings of true believers left on earth (for example, Calvin simply defined the Church as anywhere the Word of God is preached and communion and baptism served).
right but Protestants have as i mentioned an unsaid assumption that the church dies in the early stages and Catholicism became corrupt (there is almost no knowledge of Orthodoxy in most circles) So they see themselves almost as a Josiah restoring the temple. This is not inline with the words of Christ.
 

Asteriktos

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Seafra said:
right but Protestants have as i mentioned an unsaid assumption that the church dies in the early stages and Catholicism became corrupt (there is almost no knowledge of Orthodoxy in most circles) So they see themselves almost as a Josiah restoring the temple. This is not inline with the words of Christ.
+1 for using the example of King Josiah :)
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
Seafra said:
quite simply...
If it were that simple then this thread wouldn't be "WAYYY" too long for you to bother reading it.
You're the one driving this thread by complaining about how "complicated" the subject is.
Another one of your inaccurate observations?
 

PeterTheAleut

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FountainPen said:
PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
Seafra said:
quite simply...
If it were that simple then this thread wouldn't be "WAYYY" too long for you to bother reading it.
You're the one driving this thread by complaining about how "complicated" the subject is.
Another one of your inaccurate observations?
No, it's actually quite accurate, as most anyone could surmise simply by reading this thread and seeing how many of the posts are yours. ;)
 

FountainPen

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Ortho_cat said:
I have never heard a satisfactory explanation to this verse from those who believe in an invisible church:

"If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

How could Paul be referring to an invisible church here? He is obviously referring to a physical real, visible insititution. "you will know how to conduct yourself in...the church of the living God..."

Is he talking about just the one, local church in Ephesus? Does he think that one church is the pillar and foundation of the truth? Of course not. He's talking about all the churches, the visible churches, all individually being the pillar and foundation of truth.

Further, is he talking about just the physical church building itself? Of course not. He is referring to the church as a gathering of an appointed bishop/overseer who has preserved the true doctrine handed down to him from the apostles and his faithful gathered around him in thanksgiving and worship. There is nothing invisible about this.
I doubt that my additions will cause any change to your experience; it's what i've been taught and believe to be true but i doubt it's anything you haven't heard before.

You're right, he couldn't be referring to the "physical church building" because the church is the body of people, God is our Father and we are his children so it's no surprise that we should be referred to as the house of God. All those sealed with the Spirit are the church of the living God and carry the responsibility of "going" and "telling" the gospel, thereby becoming vessels used of God to birth faith in others when they hear the word of God (faith comes by hearing the word of God - rhēma) it produces faith. Flesh and blood did not reveal what was needed to Peter and flesh and blood cannot cause someone's eyes to be opened only the Spirit of God can do that.

 

FountainPen

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PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
Seafra said:
quite simply...
If it were that simple then this thread wouldn't be "WAYYY" too long for you to bother reading it.
You're the one driving this thread by complaining about how "complicated" the subject is.
Another one of your inaccurate observations?
No, it's actually quite accurate, as most anyone could surmise simply by reading this thread and seeing how many of the posts are yours. ;)
A lot of the posts are mine, as i try my best not to skip over anyones response. Moreso recently as i've seen how other members have been pulled up for not answering points made in a thread.  ;)

Who knew that diligence could be frowned upon.
 

Seafra

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Asteriktos said:
Seafra said:
right but Protestants have as i mentioned an unsaid assumption that the church dies in the early stages and Catholicism became corrupt (there is almost no knowledge of Orthodoxy in most circles) So they see themselves almost as a Josiah restoring the temple. This is not inline with the words of Christ.
+1 for using the example of King Josiah :)
haha i did find it quite fitting
 

FountainPen

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FormerReformer said:
The non convoluted answer- The Orthodox Church. 2000 years of visibility, 2000 years of sound doctrine, 2000 years heresy free.
I willget to your convoluted response -- thanks for that  :laugh:

Can i just confirm that you would say there are true Christians that are not inside The Church?

 

PeterTheAleut

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FountainPen said:
PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
Seafra said:
quite simply...
If it were that simple then this thread wouldn't be "WAYYY" too long for you to bother reading it.
You're the one driving this thread by complaining about how "complicated" the subject is.
Another one of your inaccurate observations?
No, it's actually quite accurate, as most anyone could surmise simply by reading this thread and seeing how many of the posts are yours. ;)
A lot of the posts are mine, as i try my best not to skip over anyones response. Moreso recently as i've seen how other members have been pulled up for not answering points made in a thread.  ;)

Who knew that diligence could be frowned upon.
Who's frowning? ??? I don't see anyone frowning.
 

Seafra

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FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
The non convoluted answer- The Orthodox Church. 2000 years of visibility, 2000 years of sound doctrine, 2000 years heresy free.
I willget to your convoluted response -- thanks for that  :laugh:

Can i just confirm that you would say there are true Christians that are not inside The Church?
ma'am you are confusing ecclisiology(?) in that statement. Orthodoxy is not as cut and dry as protestanism. to be within the church is to be a chrstian how good or bad of one is dependent upon the individual... a better question for you to get an answer would be will every member of orthodox church go to heave... answer no, well we dont know ;)
 

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FountainPen said:
Ortho_cat said:
I have never heard a satisfactory explanation to this verse from those who believe in an invisible church:

"If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

How could Paul be referring to an invisible church here? He is obviously referring to a physical real, visible insititution. "you will know how to conduct yourself in...the church of the living God..."

Is he talking about just the one, local church in Ephesus? Does he think that one church is the pillar and foundation of the truth? Of course not. He's talking about all the churches, the visible churches, all individually being the pillar and foundation of truth.

Further, is he talking about just the physical church building itself? Of course not. He is referring to the church as a gathering of an appointed bishop/overseer who has preserved the true doctrine handed down to him from the apostles and his faithful gathered around him in thanksgiving and worship. There is nothing invisible about this.
I doubt that my additions will cause any change to your experience; it's what i've been taught and believe to be true but i doubt it's anything you haven't heard before.

You're right, he couldn't be referring to the "physical church building" because the church is the body of people, God is our Father and we are his children so it's no surprise that we should be referred to as the house of God. All those sealed with the Spirit are the church of the living God and carry the responsibility of "going" and "telling" the gospel, thereby becoming vessels used of God to birth faith in others when they hear the word of God (faith comes by hearing the word of God - rhēma) it produces faith. Flesh and blood did not reveal what was needed to Peter and flesh and blood cannot cause someone's eyes to be opened only the Spirit of God can do that.
Well I did say he is not referring to "just the physical church building", but he is referring to a real gathering in a real physical place, is he not?

Otherwise this part wouldn't make a whole lot of sense..."you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household". If we are those being referred to as "God's household" here, would Paul telling us how to conduct ourselves within ourselves? ?? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Prior to this he is talking directly of the responsibility of the overseer and deacons and their duties and functions within the church. He's talking about a real church, a gathering of people in a real place, with bishops and deacons.

I think it is a mistake to completely remove the physical aspect from this text, and i believe to do so renders this portion nearly incomprehensible.
 

FormerReformer

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FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
The non convoluted answer- The Orthodox Church. 2000 years of visibility, 2000 years of sound doctrine, 2000 years heresy free.
I willget to your convoluted response -- thanks for that  :laugh:

Can i just confirm that you would say there are true Christians that are not inside The Church?
I would say that all true Christians are inside the Church- just not necessarily in this present moment. This is not to be confused with an invisible church, however, just a Church that is not visible now in the same way that Florida is not visible from New York. Both are part of America, to one viewing from high enough up both can be seen together, and as one progresses down the I-95 corridor eventually one will see Florida in the distance. In the end, all Christians are Orthodox Christians, just some of the snowbirds happen to have been born in England or Norway.
 

Seafra

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FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
The non convoluted answer- The Orthodox Church. 2000 years of visibility, 2000 years of sound doctrine, 2000 years heresy free.
I willget to your convoluted response -- thanks for that  :laugh:

Can i just confirm that you would say there are true Christians that are not inside The Church?
Ah just realized i mis read your post, Im sorry. all the same there is a misunderstanding in the terms for protestant and Orthodox. an orthodox will admit that they are not the only ones who will be in heaven. However they claim that they are the explicit ones who practice the traditions of Christ. so It depends on what understanding you use, Is a christian one who follows all of the traditions? i think most orthodox would say yes, then no you must be orthodox to be a "true" christian, however is a christian one who will inherit the kingdom of God? if this is your understanding then no one on this side of eternity will ever know.
 

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I think it is very difficult to dismiss from scripture that the Church of God is indeed a very visible thing, a local gathering of fellow believers with their bishops, deacons, etc. coming together to break bread and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the church that is the pillar and foundation of truth; not any of these members individually, but them coming together as one body in Christ.
 

Seafra

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Ortho_cat said:
I think it is very difficult to dismiss from scripture that the Church of God is indeed a very visible thing, a local gathering of fellow believers with their bishops, deacons, etc. coming together to break bread and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the church that is the pillar and foundation of truth; not any of these members individually, but them coming together as one body in Christ.
See the thing about the invisible church theory isnt that there arent physical churchES but there isnt once single body that is the church universal. in scripture they will place those verses as being regulated to local churches not a overall body.
 

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Seafra said:
Ortho_cat said:
I think it is very difficult to dismiss from scripture that the Church of God is indeed a very visible thing, a local gathering of fellow believers with their bishops, deacons, etc. coming together to break bread and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the church that is the pillar and foundation of truth; not any of these members individually, but them coming together as one body in Christ.
See the thing about the invisible church theory isnt that there arent physical churchES but there isnt once single body that is the church universal. in scripture they will place those verses as being regulated to local churches not a overall body.
I think that Orthodox do not place as much importance of the notion of "church universal" as Roman Catholics do. We are a complete and whole "church" in our local congregation with our bishop.
 

Seafra

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i understand this what i mean was universal faith. as the idea of invisible church is to cover the groups that have differing faiths...

i.e. Baptists and pentecostals, under the invisible church idea, though clashing on almost every theological concept, they are able to claim to be part of this church invisible
 

Volnutt

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Seafra said:
Volnutt said:
Seafra said:
Matthew 16:18...
quite simply the church is this church that Christ said will not be beaten, i see Christendom in three churches... Protestant church most DEFINITELY does not fall into this category, the Catholic church has not prevailed... they have changed shifted and swayed in their traditions and doctrines. In my research this only leaves Orthodoxy to remain as a church who is steadfast against changing traditions and upholding that which was past down!
That argument isn't going to wash unless you define "beaten." Protestants, other than Anglicans and Scandinavian Lutherans, define the Church prevailing as there being gatherings of true believers left on earth (for example, Calvin simply defined the Church as anywhere the Word of God is preached and communion and baptism served).
right but Protestants have as i mentioned an unsaid assumption that the church dies in the early stages and Catholicism became corrupt (there is almost no knowledge of Orthodoxy in most circles) So they see themselves almost as a Josiah restoring the temple. This is not inline with the words of Christ.
Not really. Most Protestants I've known imagine that history is full of pockets of sometimes persecuted proto-Protestant groups on the margins of society (for example, they'll claim that St. Patrick was essentially a Protestant and that the Church in the British Isles was doing pretty well until Rome clamped down).

Btw, Luther and Calvin taught that St. Gregory the Dialogist was the last good Pope, so that's sixth century right there. It was the Anabaptists who began the idea that the true Church could some how vanish from the planet.
 

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the reformists yes they were closer to the traditions of the church, not the protestants for the majority, you have to keep in mind the protestant church holds very little sacred apart from scripture, they scorn many beliefs help but the founders of their church such as the ever virginity of Mary and the literal body of Christ in Eucharist. i believe there is a line to be drawn between protestant and reformer.

also we would always find pockets as you say to validate our positions. Again as protestants we have a need to validate ourselves to prove our legitimacy.
 

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Volnutt said:
Seafra said:
Volnutt said:
Seafra said:
Matthew 16:18...
quite simply the church is this church that Christ said will not be beaten, i see Christendom in three churches... Protestant church most DEFINITELY does not fall into this category, the Catholic church has not prevailed... they have changed shifted and swayed in their traditions and doctrines. In my research this only leaves Orthodoxy to remain as a church who is steadfast against changing traditions and upholding that which was past down!
That argument isn't going to wash unless you define "beaten." Protestants, other than Anglicans and Scandinavian Lutherans, define the Church prevailing as there being gatherings of true believers left on earth (for example, Calvin simply defined the Church as anywhere the Word of God is preached and communion and baptism served).
right but Protestants have as i mentioned an unsaid assumption that the church dies in the early stages and Catholicism became corrupt (there is almost no knowledge of Orthodoxy in most circles) So they see themselves almost as a Josiah restoring the temple. This is not inline with the words of Christ.
Not really. Most Protestants I've known imagine that history is full of pockets of sometimes persecuted proto-Protestant groups on the margins of society (for example, they'll claim that St. Patrick was essentially a Protestant and that the Church in the British Isles was doing pretty well until Rome clamped down).

Btw, Luther and Calvin taught that St. Gregory the Dialogist was the last good Pope, so that's sixth century right there. It was the Anabaptists who began the idea that the true Church could some how vanish from the planet.
As someone who grew up hearing a number of Baptist Landmarkist teachings, it was always funny for me to study the history of those put forward as "proto-Baptists" throughout history. Montanists, Novatianists, Donatists, Cathari- not exactly the company I'd like to keep. The whole web depends on either a complete non-studying of history outside of Landmarkist texts or a stubborn insistence to read "facts" into the most casual blurb while insisting that since the history of these groups was recorded by Catholics its obviously distorted and untrustworthy.
 
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