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Civil War 150 Years: Antietam

Marc1152

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Today marks the 150th anniversary of the battle of Antietam the bloodiest single day's fighting in our history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex7EC3xBQBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4RJ_q6qPak
 

podkarpatska

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Marc1152 said:
Today marks the 150th anniversary of the battle of Antietam the bloodiest single day's fighting in our history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex7EC3xBQBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4RJ_q6qPak
Or as my dear,late Tennessee aunt would correct you - the Battle of Sharpsburg! But regardless of what you call it, this was indeed the bloodiest day in the history of the United States of America with about 23,000 casualties on both sides. Eternal Memory to the fallen.
 

Apples

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Thanks for the reminder.

What's it take to get History or Discovery channel to show a documentary on the Battle's 150th anniversary?  :mad:
 

vamrat

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Memory eternal to the brave men who died at Sharpsburg to defend their homes and families! 

Deo Vindice.
 

Aristocles

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William said:
Thanks for the reminder.

What's it take to get History or Discovery channel to show a documentary on the Battle's 150th anniversary?  :mad:
Throw some aliens or gnostic gospels into the story line. They'll show it for sure.
 

Marc1152

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A few tunes:

Gary Owen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgmZoqswQiA&feature=relmfu

The Girl I left behind me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIw8m9ogJKE&feature=related

Bonnie Blue Flag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukKZIlTEDo&feature=related

Horse Soldiers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P96n8FmAc6k

Ashokan Farewell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9yuq5fEu-Y&feature=related
 

Marc1152

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"Cadet drummer Buford. You are relieved of duty"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW7PPpyo6yw&feature=related
 

podkarpatska

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So the last generation with any direct contact with the brave men who fought on both sides of the great war between the states has mostly passed on. I remember listening in awe to my dad recount the last Memorial Day in New Jersey during the 1930's when the old veterans of the Grand Army of the Republic mustered in parade for the last time and my southern Aunt would recount her memories of the last veterans of the Confederate Armies marching through Chattanooga on the 75th anniversary of Lookout Mountain. That's the way time and history pass...Old newsreel footage of the final encampment at Gettysburg in July of 1938 always captivated me as well.

Soon the last roll call for those who stormed Normandy will take place and dusty memory will be all which remains.....

No mention was made on the evening news today to my knowledge of the battle at Antietam Creek at Sharpsburg, Maryland. I suspect that may be the case as well for generations yet unborn on December 7, 2091 and September 11, 2161. A footnote in time as more pressing matters consume the living.

God and the Church shall endure, I pray.
 

HabteSelassie

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A lot of Confederate sympathizers and apologists have hijacked the narrative more recently and like to romanticize the history.  That war was ugly, and rightfully so, because of the context and the costs of what was on the line.  God bless the memory not only of those who fought for the cause, but those who supported abolition and civil rights in their daily lives for a century before that war.  For those folks who supported the Underground Railroad, for those folks who supported boycotts from slave-labor produced goods, from those who protested against the fugitive slave laws, God bless them all!  America is a paradox, a 50-50 blend of both the absolute worst in humanity (slavery, genocide, racism, warmonger, hate, greed, thievery) and yet also the best in human history!  As an American, this is always an internal conflict, how to carry both the burden of our negative history, and yet be motivated by the miraculous positives :)

They say war brings out both the worst and yet the best in humanity, I'd say the American experience as a whole is the same.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

podkarpatska

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My aunt never romanticized the cause. Her family became Republican after reconstruction ended when as she would say, those who supported the 'romantic' notion of the 'cause' were southern Democrats. And she would say there was nothing 'romantic' about the underlying motivations of many of the Dixiecrats. Oh well... this is not politics by the way - just historical observations.  The concept of state and nation was quite different in 19th century America. It is appropriate to remember the valor of those who fought for a variety of basic causes on both sides while not forgetting the underlying evil of slavery which the southern economy viewed as essential to its survival.
 

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May the Lord have mercy on all the war dead and make their memory eternal.

While it was a long time ago, we aren't far removed from that generation. My great great grandfather fought in the war. We still have his muskete in the family and my uncle keeps it setting above his fire place. I was always told the cause of the Confederacy wasn't bad (states rights). They just fought over the wrong thing (slavery). America is what it is today and we should honor all those who gave their lives in such an important struggle in our history.
 

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States Rights and Slavery were both secondary considerations.  Northern economics vs Southern economics was the root cause.  Both of them relied of slavery - chattel or wage, African or Irish, take your pick.  The Union put an end to one form of slavery and the unions to the other, and the implications of both are still around today.  At least State's Rights is a noble cause.  Imposing one form of slavery in place of another is just hypocrisy. 
 

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vamrat said:
States Rights and Slavery were both secondary considerations.  Northern economics vs Southern economics was the root cause.  Both of them relied of slavery - chattel or wage, African or Irish, take your pick.  The Union put an end to one form of slavery and the unions to the other, and the implications of both are still around today.  At least State's Rights is a noble cause.  Imposing one form of slavery in place of another is just hypocrisy. 
^ THIS

And then that Tyrant, worst US President ever, Abraham Lincoln took a dump on the south and made them poor. He also took away the South's right to succeed, which WAS THEIR RIGHT.

The Confederacy wasn't perfect, but it was certainly better than the Union...and Abraham Lincoln.
 

podkarpatska

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vamrat said:
States Rights and Slavery were both secondary considerations.  Northern economics vs Southern economics was the root cause.  Both of them relied of slavery - chattel or wage, African or Irish, take your pick.  The Union put an end to one form of slavery and the unions to the other, and the implications of both are still around today.  At least State's Rights is a noble cause.  Imposing one form of slavery in place of another is just hypocrisy.  
In the abstract what you say is true, but that view, in my mind, is merely justificational revisionism. It is difficult to honor the valor of brave soldiers if you can not find some measure of honor in their cause - were the sons and daughters of the Confederacy not able to make such a construct they surely would have despaired all the more at the loss of the ante-bellum South.

Lincoln and his new republicans ( including such prominent members of his War Cabinet as Seward, Chase and Stanton) saw the ascendency of the modern industrial federation - much as Bismark did among the German federated states during the same historical era, while the democrats were afraid of that view of the future and the societal changes it foresaw. But, after the huge losses of life and limp among all sides at Antietam and Gettysburg in particular, Lincoln recognized that the war had to be about the abolition of slavery in order to justify the cost in life and economics. Unfortunately for our country, he was murdered, the radical republicans seized power, corruption ensued and a century of American apartheid ensued.

None of this should stop any of us from contemplating the forces which led to the war (the political dysfunction of the period from the Missouri Compromise through the election of 1860 was not dissimilar to our current polarized federal dysfunction and that reality alone should give all of us pause to think about the consequences of absolutism in our thinking.....)

Anyway, rest in peace all of the valiant warriors whose sacrifice helped forge modern America.

and celticfan - get over it.... you lost....
 

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podkarpatska said:
vamrat said:
States Rights and Slavery were both secondary considerations.  Northern economics vs Southern economics was the root cause.  Both of them relied of slavery - chattel or wage, African or Irish, take your pick.  The Union put an end to one form of slavery and the unions to the other, and the implications of both are still around today.  At least State's Rights is a noble cause.  Imposing one form of slavery in place of another is just hypocrisy. 
In the abstract what you say is true, but that view, in my mind, is merely justificational revisionism. It is difficult to honor the valor of brave soldiers if you can not find some measure of honor in their cause - were the sons and daughters of the Confederacy not able to make such a construct they surely would have despaired all the more at the loss of the ante-bellum South.

Lincoln and his new republicans ( including such prominent members of his War Cabinet as Seward, Chase and Stanton) saw the ascendency of the modern industrial federation - much as Bismark did among the German federated states during the same historical era, while the democrats were afraid of that view of the future and the societal changes it foresaw. But, after the huge losses of life and limp among all sides at Antietam and Gettysburg in particular, Lincoln recognized that the war had to be about the abolition of slavery in order to justify the cost in life and economics. Unfortunately for our country, he was murdered, the radical republicans seized power, corruption ensued and a century of American apartheid ensued.

None of this should stop any of us from contemplating the forces which led to the war (the political dysfunction of the period from the Missouri Compromise through the election of 1860 was not dissimilar to our current polarized federal dysfunction and that reality alone should give all of us pause to think about the consequences of absolutism in our thinking.....)

Anyway, rest in peace all of the valiant warriors whose sacrifice helped forge modern America.

and celticfan - get over it.... you lost....
What did I lose? I had no family here? Duh. :laugh:

I just wish liberty had prevailed is all. The Civil War is when America started to tank IMHO. The fact you supported the Union, shows you don't care about States Rights or the guidelines the nation were founded on.
 

vamrat

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katherineofdixie said:
We lost?

Check some demographics of the last, oh, twenty or thirty years.

We will, however, allow you to keep your horses and mules for the spring planting.
I would shout "Preach it, sister!" but alas, I am not Southern.  Just a Copperhead.
 

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Orthodoxy and the First Shot of the American Civil War

http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/06/29/orthodoxy-and-the-first-shot-of-the-american-civil-war/
 

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After our recent vacation down to South Carolina, we visited Fort Sumter and Chattanooga, TN. Being from Missouri I realized that the Civil War out east as compared to what it was like here in Missouri & Kansas was pretty different and probably explains why many around here don't so much identify with the Confederacy or Union as much as they just hate the other state.

It kind of astonished me to actually see people who were all about the Confederacy,  I knew they were prominent in the South, but I just didn't expect it. Since our war in Missouri & Kansas was directly tied to slavery, I couldn't understand how people could stand for an organization that supported it. But I guess the war out east was very different than here.
 

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celticfan1888 said:
vamrat said:
States Rights and Slavery were both secondary considerations.  Northern economics vs Southern economics was the root cause.  Both of them relied of slavery - chattel or wage, African or Irish, take your pick.  The Union put an end to one form of slavery and the unions to the other, and the implications of both are still around today.  At least State's Rights is a noble cause.  Imposing one form of slavery in place of another is just hypocrisy.  
^ THIS

And then that Tyrant, worst US President ever, Abraham Lincoln took a dump on the south and made them poor. He also took away the South's right to succeed, which WAS THEIR RIGHT.

The Confederacy wasn't perfect, but it was certainly better than the Union...and Abraham Lincoln.
Lincoln certainly wasn't a great thing for the south, but his reconstruction ended in 1865 (albiet under Johnson).

It was the Radical Republicans who gave the South the bitterness many still taste today by replacing the state governments with military rule two years after the war ended. There's a reason some old people around here still use "Carpetbagger" as a curse word.

FWIW, I am no Confederate sympathizer, just a southerner living with the collective psychic baggage that seems to be getting lighter with each passing year. In another generation we may finally be past all this.
 

88Devin12

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Agabus said:
celticfan1888 said:
vamrat said:
States Rights and Slavery were both secondary considerations.  Northern economics vs Southern economics was the root cause.  Both of them relied of slavery - chattel or wage, African or Irish, take your pick.  The Union put an end to one form of slavery and the unions to the other, and the implications of both are still around today.  At least State's Rights is a noble cause.  Imposing one form of slavery in place of another is just hypocrisy.  
^ THIS

And then that Tyrant, worst US President ever, Abraham Lincoln took a dump on the south and made them poor. He also took away the South's right to succeed, which WAS THEIR RIGHT.

The Confederacy wasn't perfect, but it was certainly better than the Union...and Abraham Lincoln.
Lincoln certainly wasn't a great thing for the south, but his reconstruction ended in 1865 (albiet under Johnson).

It was the Radical Republicans who gave the South the bitterness many still taste today by replacing the state governments with military rule two years after the war ended. There's a reason some old people around here still use "Carpetbagger" as a curse word.

FWIW, I am no Confederate sympathizer, just a southerner living with the collective psychic baggage that seems to be getting lighter with each passing year. In another generation we may finally be past all this.
I certainly hope so. I think it'll take Missouri & Kansas longer because the war in some sense is still going on, but has taken another form. It's all just stupid and petty. I had to be a part of a team that developed a long-term plan for a small Missouri town, and most of those people didn't want to work with the government because it meant cooperating with the same entity that had their town destroyed 150 years ago. It's stupid.

It was just 6-7 years ago when I still held a lot of hatred and resentment against Kansans for not just the Civil War, but things that have happened since then. I wholeheartedly sided with John Brown, as well as Jesse & Frank James. To me it was more about hatred against Kansans and rebellion than about Union vs. Confederacy. Thankfully I grew up and realized it was stupid.

Heck, many of the sports teams in our states are named after the militias that came out of this era. The Kansas Jayhawks are named after the Jayhawkers who were a guerrilla group which frequently raided towns in Missouri and fought Missouri guerrillas. The Missouri Tigers are also named after a guerrilla group from the Civil War which was based out of Jefferson City/Columbia. As I've already said, it's plain stupid to still be arguing over something that happened 150 years ago.
 

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I participated in the 125th anniversary reenactment of Antietam.

We were marching down the road  a few miles to get to Burnside's Bridge. The reenactment would be over a bridge a few miles away from the Original over the same creek. It looked exactly the same.

The sides were lopsided as is often the case, too many Confederates, so to fix this a few regiments of Rebels  switch sides to make the numbers more realistic. Rebel re enactors often have both uniforms in case they get drafted.

As we marched down the road there was a unit of these "Glavanized" Rebels marching behind me. They were joking and laughing and being unruly.

One of them said loudly: "I feel like the Mexicans marching on the Alamo"...Which was actually pretty funny. However, I turned  on my heels and got in the guys face and said:

"What flag is that at the head of the column Corporal?.

"The National Colors Sir"

"That's right and if you don't shut the.. explicative deleted..up by God I will send all of you back to camp and I dont care how short handed that makes us"

"Yes sir"


 

katherineofdixie

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It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner

Oh, and the majority of Southerners did not own slaves. Do you think that brave men died at Sharpsburg and in the Wilderness to prop up slave-owning oligarchs?

The Greeks still commemorate the sacking of Constantinople in 1453.
 

Marc1152

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katherineofdixie said:
It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner

Oh, and the majority of Southerners did not own slaves. Do you think that brave men died at Sharpsburg and in the Wilderness to prop up slave-owning oligarchs?

The Greeks still commemorate the sacking of Constantinople in 1453.
Davis was the only high ranking Southern leader to be thrown into Prison. He was chained to an Iron Ball which was a bit of a scandal. The rest of them got off.
Juda Benjamin the Secy of War fled to Briton where he had a second life as a barrister. A few fled the country. Forrest took his Cav into Mexico for awhile. There were few punishments doled out with the notable exception of Col. Henry Wirtz the Commandant of Andersonville Prison whom we hung by the neck until dead. 
 

Marc1152

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katherineofdixie said:
It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner

Oh, and the majority of Southerners did not own slaves. Do you think that brave men died at Sharpsburg and in the Wilderness to prop up slave-owning oligarchs?

The Greeks still commemorate the sacking of Constantinople in 1453.
There was a standing order in the Confederate Army that any White Officer who was captured leading Colored Troops would be considered as leading a servile insurrection and would be executed.

Sounds pretty committed to slavery to me.

 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

katherineofdixie said:
It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner
Yeah, come talk to the same folks whose grandparents were slaves in chains and see how concerned they are about poor ol Jeff Davis ;)

You are right, the past is not dead at all, it is alive and well, and the wounds of slavery and racism are still with us today also,  unfortunately some folks are still on the wrong side of the past and history :(

Its not just a black thing either, because you're right, most folks did not own slaves, and indeed a lot of white folks were adamantly and actively opposed to slavery, and their descendants today still carry their memory, their spirit, and especially their legacy.

Something Confederate sympathizers seem to forget 150 odd years after the fact, they started that war, they continued that war, and they rightfully lost that war because their cause was evil.  Do Germans still have pride or commemorations for Nazis? Doubtful.  Perhaps Americans should reflect on that, and I say that as an American who is only a generation removed from the South.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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Marc1152 said:
katherineofdixie said:
It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner

Oh, and the majority of Southerners did not own slaves. Do you think that brave men died at Sharpsburg and in the Wilderness to prop up slave-owning oligarchs?

The Greeks still commemorate the sacking of Constantinople in 1453.
There was a standing order in the Confederate Army that any White Officer who was captured leading Colored Troops would be considered as leading a servile insurrection and would be executed.

Sounds pretty committed to slavery to me.
Much as I love arguing with you elsewhere, and as often as we challenge posters for sources and proof, I agree with you here.
 

vamrat

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HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

katherineofdixie said:
It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner
Yeah, come talk to the same folks whose grandparents were slaves in chains and see how concerned they are about poor ol Jeff Davis ;)

You are right, the past is not dead at all, it is alive and well, and the wounds of slavery and racism are still with us today also,  unfortunately some folks are still on the wrong side of the past and history :(

Its not just a black thing either, because you're right, most folks did not own slaves, and indeed a lot of white folks were adamantly and actively opposed to slavery, and their descendants today still carry their memory, their spirit, and especially their legacy.

Something Confederate sympathizers seem to forget 150 odd years after the fact, they started that war, they continued that war, and they rightfully lost that war because their cause was evil.  Do Germans still have pride or commemorations for Nazis? Doubtful.  Perhaps Americans should reflect on that, and I say that as an American who is only a generation removed from the South.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Do you believe the North was right to invade the South?
 

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celticfan1888 said:
podkarpatska said:
vamrat said:
States Rights and Slavery were both secondary considerations.  Northern economics vs Southern economics was the root cause.  Both of them relied of slavery - chattel or wage, African or Irish, take your pick.  The Union put an end to one form of slavery and the unions to the other, and the implications of both are still around today.  At least State's Rights is a noble cause.  Imposing one form of slavery in place of another is just hypocrisy. 
In the abstract what you say is true, but that view, in my mind, is merely justificational revisionism. It is difficult to honor the valor of brave soldiers if you can not find some measure of honor in their cause - were the sons and daughters of the Confederacy not able to make such a construct they surely would have despaired all the more at the loss of the ante-bellum South.

Lincoln and his new republicans ( including such prominent members of his War Cabinet as Seward, Chase and Stanton) saw the ascendency of the modern industrial federation - much as Bismark did among the German federated states during the same historical era, while the democrats were afraid of that view of the future and the societal changes it foresaw. But, after the huge losses of life and limp among all sides at Antietam and Gettysburg in particular, Lincoln recognized that the war had to be about the abolition of slavery in order to justify the cost in life and economics. Unfortunately for our country, he was murdered, the radical republicans seized power, corruption ensued and a century of American apartheid ensued.

None of this should stop any of us from contemplating the forces which led to the war (the political dysfunction of the period from the Missouri Compromise through the election of 1860 was not dissimilar to our current polarized federal dysfunction and that reality alone should give all of us pause to think about the consequences of absolutism in our thinking.....)

Anyway, rest in peace all of the valiant warriors whose sacrifice helped forge modern America.

and celticfan - get over it.... you lost....
What did I lose? I had no family here? Duh. :laugh:

I just wish liberty had prevailed is all. The Civil War is when America started to tank IMHO. The fact you supported the Union, shows you don't care about States Rights or the guidelines the nation were founded on.
I would suggest a total  immersion in American history before you start opining your passions so far removed from the facts. I would start with the works which influenced the Founding Fathers, study the history of the American rebellion against the Crown, the economic differences among the diverse states which were clear at the time, 225 days ago yesterday, of the adoption of the Constitution, the Federalist/anti-Federalist debates, the second American revolution as interpreted by the Jacksonians and so on....

The founding constitutional principals  also included the disenfranchisement of most citizens and the counting of slaves (who were regarded as chattel under the laws of the slave holding states and who were treated as such) as being 3/5's of a person for purposes of congressional representation. Those 'founding' principals are conveniently omitted from the scholarly analysis those who want to misunderstand history and argue 'original intent' as the only principal to guide constitutional analysis.

To many of us over the age of fifty, the terms 'states rights' is a loaded term. It evokes memories of Gov. Faubus of Arkansas, George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door (Wallace in his old age came to realize the foolishness of his racialist politics) and Lester Maddox of Georgia. It evokes memories of little girls being murdered in Church by domestic terrorists enboldened by the inflammatory rhetoric of their political and religious 'leaders.' (Kinda sounds like the mideast, huh?)

To many of us over fifty, the Federal Government stood for the eradication of the vestiges of legal apartheid in the United States. IT stood for the courage of Ike in nationalizing the Guard to protect the children of Little Rock. It stood for the eradication of laws which were designed to separate people at such mundane places as fountains, hotels and swimming pools. It stood for opening the ballot box to millions who were barred by virtue of restrictive devices like 'poll taxes', 'literacy tests' and so on - packaged as 'fair' but hardly the same in their intent and the results they produced. To many of us over seventy five years of age, the Federal Government in the south also stood for the WPA, the electrification of rural communities, the Tennessee Valley authority and the taming of the rivers and increasing the ability of developable land with cheap electricity, modern interstate highways, modern airports and so on. It is hard for any of us old enough to remember our childhood before 1964 that the development of today's modern South and the migration of millions of folks and jobs from the north and midwest would ever had occurred without the interventionalist role and investments made by the Federal government during the 1960's and 1970's.

Nothing in history is simple, nothing is really clear cut. But the winners in history do get to write it
 

podkarpatska

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vamrat said:
HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

katherineofdixie said:
It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner
Yeah, come talk to the same folks whose grandparents were slaves in chains and see how concerned they are about poor ol Jeff Davis ;)

You are right, the past is not dead at all, it is alive and well, and the wounds of slavery and racism are still with us today also,  unfortunately some folks are still on the wrong side of the past and history :(

Its not just a black thing either, because you're right, most folks did not own slaves, and indeed a lot of white folks were adamantly and actively opposed to slavery, and their descendants today still carry their memory, their spirit, and especially their legacy.

Something Confederate sympathizers seem to forget 150 odd years after the fact, they started that war, they continued that war, and they rightfully lost that war because their cause was evil.  Do Germans still have pride or commemorations for Nazis? Doubtful.  Perhaps Americans should reflect on that, and I say that as an American who is only a generation removed from the South.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Do you believe the North was right to invade the South?
If you believe the Union was and is indivisible (like it says in the Pledge of Allegience I would remind states rights folks) , then yes the North was right. If you believe that the Union is a voluntary association of sovereign entities than no - the North should not have invaded the South. However, that's one of the 'whys' for which the war was fought and one side prevailed.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

vamrat said:
Do you believe the North was right to invade the South?
Lets see, they attacked an American military instillation, then they refused to muster a call from the Commander and Chief, then they continued to formally secede from the formal government, and all over a perceived fear of encroachment upon their slave economy and their bitterness over an increasing rising tide of Abolitionism in American political mainstream which by definition threatened their entire economy which was based solely on racism and slavery? I'd say yes, the Union was completely justified in invading the South, and if the Confederates hadn't been so damned good at war, then it wouldn't have taken half as long, neither would it have come to the Scorched Earth policies.  The South was so thoroughly destroyed because the Union was fed up with so much bloodshed and loss of life.  The mentality was simple, if the Confederates want war so bad, we'll give it to em.  They did, they got it, and they lost.  So its done.  To pretend it went any other way is a hopelessly romantic fairy tale.  Was Abraham Lincoln a Saint? God know, he was a viscious war-criminal, but that is what happens when one evil has to fight another. Slavery was evil, and no amount of gibberish based analysis can change the reality that the war was over slavery, period.  In this regard, it was inevitable.  By the way the North was as culpable as the South in slavery, and they weren't exactly heroes.  However, the War was indeed a horrifying tragedy on all sides, but again was inevitable.

I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me. Now, at the end of three years struggle the nation's condition is not what either party, or any man devised, or expected. God alone can claim it. Whither it is tending seems plain. If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God.
Abraham Linconl 1864 letter to Albert Hodges

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

podkarpatska

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AS to scorched earth policies, the concept of total war was evolving by the middle of the 19th century and the lines between traditional combatants and a society as a whole as 'warrior' began to break apart. Lee, who held a naive 18th century sense of military honor and virtue, was anguished by this. Technology and industrialization made this tragic development inevitable and we reap the further development of this tactic (or strategy in the hands of some) in our modern age. You can't put spilled milk back in a bottle and as Sherman observed, 'War is Hell. '
 

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HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

vamrat said:
Do you believe the North was right to invade the South?
Lets see, they attacked an American military instillation, then they refused to muster a call from the Commander and Chief, then they continued to formally secede from the formal government, and all over a perceived fear of encroachment upon their slave economy and their bitterness over an increasing rising tide of Abolitionism in American political mainstream which by definition threatened their entire economy which was based solely on racism and slavery? I'd say yes, the Union was completely justified in invading the South, and if the Confederates hadn't been so damned good at war, then it wouldn't have taken half as long, neither would it have come to the Scorched Earth policies.  The South was so thoroughly destroyed because the Union was fed up with so much bloodshed and loss of life.  The mentality was simple, if the Confederates want war so bad, we'll give it to em.  They did, they got it, and they lost.  So its done.  To pretend it went any other way is a hopelessly romantic fairy tale.  Was Abraham Lincoln a Saint? God know, he was a viscious war-criminal, but that is what happens when one evil has to fight another. Slavery was evil, and no amount of gibberish based analysis can change the reality that the war was over slavery, period.  In this regard, it was inevitable.  By the way the North was as culpable as the South in slavery, and they weren't exactly heroes.  However, the War was indeed a horrifying tragedy on all sides, but again was inevitable.

I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me. Now, at the end of three years struggle the nation's condition is not what either party, or any man devised, or expected. God alone can claim it. Whither it is tending seems plain. If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God.
Abraham Linconl 1864 letter to Albert Hodges

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Lincoln should have prayed instead of sending in soldier with bayonets.  Our war should not be one of minie balls and Parrott guns but of the Holy Spirit.  Didn’t the slaves and the abolitionists know that they would be free in heaven?  Lord have mercy that his children are so worked up over jingoism.  I know people who have had their country invaded and it is not a pleasant thing.  It is nothing but painful and needless BS, something that I wouldn’t wish upon my enemies, let alone my brothers and sisters in the South.  Lincoln should not have wished for war but rather through peace through the Holy Spirit.  If he had just let them go their own way they would have cooled off and came back as Christian brothers, but instead he sent armed men to do the work he should have done as a Christian and as a leader.  The sad things is, things got so bad that the South had to break away from the North, not so much that they did so.
 

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podkarpatska said:
vamrat said:
HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

katherineofdixie said:
It's not that long ago - my grandfather's grandfather was a drummer boy, and told my grandfather (who in turn told me) about seeing Jefferson Davis being dragged through the streets in chains.

Come and talk to native Atlantans who have family stories of when Atlanta was burned to the ground.

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner
Yeah, come talk to the same folks whose grandparents were slaves in chains and see how concerned they are about poor ol Jeff Davis ;)

You are right, the past is not dead at all, it is alive and well, and the wounds of slavery and racism are still with us today also,  unfortunately some folks are still on the wrong side of the past and history :(

Its not just a black thing either, because you're right, most folks did not own slaves, and indeed a lot of white folks were adamantly and actively opposed to slavery, and their descendants today still carry their memory, their spirit, and especially their legacy.

Something Confederate sympathizers seem to forget 150 odd years after the fact, they started that war, they continued that war, and they rightfully lost that war because their cause was evil.  Do Germans still have pride or commemorations for Nazis? Doubtful.  Perhaps Americans should reflect on that, and I say that as an American who is only a generation removed from the South.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Do you believe the North was right to invade the South?
If you believe the Union was and is indivisible (like it says in the Pledge of Allegience I would remind states rights folks) , then yes the North was right. If you believe that the Union is a voluntary association of sovereign entities than no - the North should not have invaded the South. However, that's one of the 'whys' for which the war was fought and one side prevailed.
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892.

I think one of my friends put it best once when he said 'of course the South was right.  That's why there was a war and not a court case.'

Oh well, Vae Victus and all that.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

vamrat said:
Lincoln should have prayed instead of sending in soldier with bayonets.  Our war should not be one of minie balls and Parrott guns but of the Holy Spirit.  Didn’t the slaves and the abolitionists know that they would be free in heaven?  Lord have mercy that his children are so worked up over jingoism.  I know people who have had their country invaded and it is not a pleasant thing.  It is nothing but painful and needless BS, something that I wouldn’t wish upon my enemies, let alone my brothers and sisters in the South.  Lincoln should not have wished for war but rather through peace through the Holy Spirit.  If he had just let them go their own way they would have cooled off and came back as Christian brothers, but instead he sent armed men to do the work he should have done as a Christian and as a leader.  The sad things is, things got so bad that the South had to break away from the North, not so much that they did so.
I appreciate the way you are subtly mocking my post on the Syrian thread to try to prove a point.  Yet again I will reiterate what I told you there, GROW UP PLEASE!


I too wish it had only come down to prayer, but consistently the Confederacy felt differently about the matter.  Its not about jingoism, slavery is as evil as any other, and inevitably too many Northerners were clearly willing to fight over it.  Our country spent almost a hundred years at the political and economic bargaining table about slavery, at the end of all that, slavery was as thoroughly entrenched in the Southern mind as ever.  That is why the war was inevitable then, because the North would finally push to stop slavery and the South clearly pushed pack.

Maybe the Confederates shouldn't have picked the fight in the first place? Clearly the course of events revealed they bit off more than they could chew ;)

The Confederacy was as naive as John Brown, whereas Brown thought that Abolitionists would rise up in a huge war that never materialized, the Confederates thought that most Northerners were both racist enough and complicit enough economically in the slave system not to support the War and instead to rise up and support the Confederate cause.  What they underestimated is that economic principles of market-capitalism being more efficient than slavery are what pushed Northern businesses away from the slave-system and therefore in support of the War.  Further, Europe was hypocritically working against slavery, so the deck was stacked against the Confederates since the 1850s even!  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

vamrat said:
Lincoln should have prayed instead of sending in soldier with bayonets.  Our war should not be one of minie balls and Parrott guns but of the Holy Spirit.  Didn’t the slaves and the abolitionists know that they would be free in heaven?  Lord have mercy that his children are so worked up over jingoism.  I know people who have had their country invaded and it is not a pleasant thing.  It is nothing but painful and needless BS, something that I wouldn’t wish upon my enemies, let alone my brothers and sisters in the South.  Lincoln should not have wished for war but rather through peace through the Holy Spirit.  If he had just let them go their own way they would have cooled off and came back as Christian brothers, but instead he sent armed men to do the work he should have done as a Christian and as a leader.  The sad things is, things got so bad that the South had to break away from the North, not so much that they did so.
I appreciate the way you are subtly mocking my post on the Syrian thread to try to prove a point.  Yet again I will reiterate what I told you there, GROW UP PLEASE!


I too wish it had only come down to prayer, but consistently the Confederacy felt differently about the matter.  Its not about jingoism, slavery is as evil as any other, and inevitably too many Northerners were clearly willing to fight over it.  Our country spent almost a hundred years at the political and economic bargaining table about slavery, at the end of all that, slavery was as thoroughly entrenched in the Southern mind as ever.  That is why the war was inevitable then, because the North would finally push to stop slavery and the South clearly pushed pack.

Maybe the Confederates shouldn't have picked the fight in the first place? Clearly the course of events revealed they bit off more than they could chew ;)

The Confederacy was as naive as John Brown, whereas Brown thought that Abolitionists would rise up in a huge war that never materialized, the Confederates thought that most Northerners were both racist enough and complicit enough economically in the slave system not to support the War and instead to rise up and support the Confederate cause.  What they underestimated is that economic principles of market-capitalism being more efficient than slavery are what pushed Northern businesses away from the slave-system and therefore in support of the War.  Further, Europe was hypocritically working against slavery, so the deck was stacked against the Confederates since the 1850s even!  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I have every intention of growing up on Friday, but today is not that day.  Besides, how old are you to be telling me to grow up?  I must know so I can either heed your command or mock it further.


Southerners to Beirut.  Confederates to the Grave.  :p

Remember, just because the majority disagrees with you, doesn't make them right.
 
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