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Communion Spoons & Covid

Irened

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Did anyone yet mention the story of St. John Maximovitch consuming Holy Gifts that were spat upon the floor by a person with rabies? And how he was perfectly fine afterwards?

I'm guilty of (in the past) fearing Covid and even the flu from Holy Communion so I'm no one to judge, may God forgive me.
 

JTLoganville

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Did anyone yet mention the story of St. John Maximovitch consuming Holy Gifts that were spat upon the floor by a person with rabies? And how he was perfectly fine afterwards?
A far finer example to cite than that of St. Mary the Egyptian.
 

LizaSymonenko

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And what of all the people who weren't healed? Was St Lazarus, who died, not just faithful but also Jesus's friend? Mental and emotional zeal will not spare us from suffering.
Not only was he healed, he was resurrected and brought back to life. His initial death was to show the Glory of God...

...and I never said we would not suffer... even if we believe without a doubt.

We are not here to party, relax, and simply enjoy life. ...and we live in the fallen world, and as a consequence of the fall of mankind... we suffer, we get old, we get sick, we die....
 

Irened

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I'm reminded of when the Lord said you will take up serpents and not be harmed, you will drink poison and not die etc..if these deadly things themselves won't kill a believer, how could the chalice and the spoon?

Maybe I shouldn't ask this but, what would happen if a person communed in a situation like that of the Saints we just referenced but did NOT have a firm 100% faith like they did that they would not be harmed?
 

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Another instance from the life of Papa Nicholas. He served liturgy every day. One morning he got up to serve, he would begin praying, as soon he got out of bed. He left for church and by mistake took a bottle of medicine, instead of the wine bottle. He liturgised with it, consumed it, and again nothing happened.
 

Stinky

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What are you referring to? When she died after communing?
I think the example of Saint Mary of Egypt going into the desert for a long stretch has never been to teach us to run away and hide from hardship or possible sickness or disease. She provides an example of repentance and separation from passions. Her example has nothing to do with the Covid situation and government interference with church living nor with church leaders creating scenarios to accommodate Caesar.


When approaching the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, are we *distracted* with worldly cares in germaphobia and spooniphobia?
When these Saints listed above in this thread retrieve the Body and the Blood from the floor at the feet of the rabid and the leper, did they scoop it up off the ground with one or two spoons? Or with hands?
Did Jesus use a spoon to share His Body and His Blood? Spoons are innovation.
The issue is the reason the multiple spoons are introduced. It rings the bell “ Covid” at every Divine Liturgy. It rings the bell “ fear.” It rings the bell “politics in church.” It rings the bell “ division.”
just my ramblings…I take no position.
 

Ainnir

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For the record, I receive Eucharist with the priest offering just one spoon. I have never ever received Eucharist with multiple spoons.
I mean, two, three spoons would not fit inside my mouth and there’s the risk of spill. I stick to one spoon at a time. And I don’t check if it’s the same exact spoon at the next Communion.
 

JTLoganville

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What are you referring to? When she died after communing?
There were too many....some of clerical rank...who elevated the example of St. Mary of Egypt living without Communing as a justification for the closing of churches and depriving the faithful of the Sacraments during the Pandemic Pascha of 2020.
 

LizaSymonenko

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There were too many....some of clerical rank...who elevated the example of St. Mary of Egypt living without Communing as a justification for the closing of churches and depriving the faithful of the Sacraments during the Pandemic Pascha of 2020.
....but, she did not commune due to doubt of the sanctity of the Eucharist... but, because she was busy working out her own salvation through repentance and prayer...

If only those people who claim we do not need the Eucharist... behaved as she... and used the time they were not spending in Church, praying, partaking of the Sacraments, etc... to meditate upon their own actions and salvation...
 

Deacon Lance

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LOL. Wonderful Jesuitical logic there!
That’s the best you can do? Throw Jesuitical around? If mold can grow on the Holy Gifts, which the Liturgicon/Typicon acknowledges, viruses can be present on the spoon.
 

Deacon Lance

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The holy spoon will not get infected.
Then why does St Nikodemos command the spoon be disinfected with vinegar when those with the plague are communed? With a separate spoon I might add.
 
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That’s the best you can do? Throw Jesuitical around? If mold can grow on the Holy Gifts, which the Liturgicon/Typicon acknowledges, viruses can be present on the spoon.
Mold is always possible when there is bread, considering it's made with yeast. Viruses don't react well with alcohol. The likelihood of viruses on the communion spoon is very low. That is just a base way of looking at the Eucharist.
 

Deacon Lance

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Mold is always possible when there is bread, considering it's made with yeast. Viruses don't react well with alcohol. The likelihood of viruses on the communion spoon is very low. That is just a base way of looking at the Eucharist.
Communion wine alcohol range is 10-18% far below the percentage needed to kill viruses. CDC recommended 60% for ethyl alcohol hand sanitizers.
 

JTLoganville

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Communion wine alcohol range is 10-18% far below the percentage needed to kill viruses. CDC recommended 60% for ethyl alcohol hand sanitizers.
Irrespective, we who consume the Holy Gifts at the close of the Liturgy are the ones who theoretically should be most at risk.

Yet I believe that even if some pathogens through demonic operation become attached therein: First, the power and Presence of Him Who rose from the dead is stronger than even the most submicroscopic of Satan's minion; Second, that if there is even the slightest chance of "exposure" that will exercise and build up my body's immune system just as squats and bench presses build up my muscular-skeletal systems.

I will not "put the Lord...to the test"; neither will I succumb to the "spirit of timidity".
 

RaphaCam

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Communion wine alcohol range is 10-18% far below the percentage needed to kill viruses. CDC recommended 60% for ethyl alcohol hand sanitizers.
I think 60% may be a safe measure, since it's usually theorised that winemaking started for antibiotic reasons.
 

Deacon Lance

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Irrespective, we who consume the Holy Gifts at the close of the Liturgy are the ones who theoretically should be most at risk.

Yet I believe that even if some pathogens through demonic operation become attached therein: First, the power and Presence of Him Who rose from the dead is stronger than even the most submicroscopic of Satan's minion; Second, that if there is even the slightest chance of "exposure" that will exercise and build up my body's immune system just as squats and bench presses build up my muscular-skeletal systems.

I will not "put the Lord...to the test"; neither will I succumb to the "spirit of timidity".
Indeed, we are. I too consume the Holy Gifts without fear. But I also don’t look down on those with concerns or criticize hierarchs who enact measures to address those concerns.
 

JTLoganville

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Indeed, we are. I too consume the Holy Gifts without fear. But I also don’t look down on those with concerns or criticize hierarchs who enact measures to address those concerns.
Aye, for everyone--myself included--I pray; "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"
 

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This was way bigger than the number of spoons. It was more about whether it is better to worship Christ or fear.

2020 was a scary time for most people. If you weren't hiding under the bed scared of a virus, you were probably out of work or watching your business destroyed by capricious mandates. People needed hope, and where were the hierarchs who have traditionally pointed the way to that hope? They were nowhere to be seen because they were busy ordering extra spoons and Everclear, followed by iconoclastic mask mandates. The whole thing left me more than a little unsure whether Orthodoxy was just another cult.

The faithful in Canada were shouting "Anaxios!" at their bishop not because of spoons, but because treating the Gifts as a source of illness is a blasphemy against the Eucharist and the Holy Spirit.
 

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Did anyone yet mention the story of St. John Maximovitch consuming Holy Gifts that were spat upon the floor by a person with rabies? And how he was perfectly fine afterwards?

I'm guilty of (in the past) fearing Covid and even the flu from Holy Communion so I'm no one to judge, may God forgive me.
We could use a couple more bishops like St. John Maximovitch
 

Deacon Lance

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This was way bigger than the number of spoons. It was more about whether it is better to worship Christ or fear.

2020 was a scary time for most people. If you weren't hiding under the bed scared of a virus, you were probably out of work or watching your business destroyed by capricious mandates. People needed hope, and where were the hierarchs who have traditionally pointed the way to that hope? They were nowhere to be seen because they were busy ordering extra spoons and Everclear, followed by iconoclastic mask mandates. The whole thing left me more than a little unsure whether Orthodoxy was just another cult.

The faithful in Canada were shouting "Anaxios!" at their bishop not because of spoons, but because treating the Gifts as a source of illness is a blasphemy against the Eucharist and the Holy Spirit.
Once again not the Holy Gifts, the spoon. Saints recognized the need for separate spoons and disinfecting during plague.
 
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How many times have people become ill because of the spoon?
 

LizaSymonenko

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I don’t know. St Nikodemus ordered separate spoons and disinfecting them. Did he know someone got sick or was he just being cautious?
Nobody would have ever gotten sick from partaking of the Eucharist... not from the spoon, chalice, hands, etc.

If the saint did utilize separate spoons, it was most likely to calm the fears of his flock... so they would continue to partake of the Holy Sacrament. Sometimes, you have to realize that people are fallible and need to work with that fact... for their own salvation....
 

Shanghaiski

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That’s the best you can do? Throw Jesuitical around? If mold can grow on the Holy Gifts, which the Liturgicon/Typicon acknowledges, viruses can be present on the spoon.
And guess what happens to the cleric who lets mold grow on the Holy Gifts? He has to answer for it.
 

J Michael

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Here and now (well...sometimes...)
I've seen at least a couple of peer-reviewed medical studies that acknowledge no outbreaks have been traced to the Eucharist. You can look this up on Pubmed.
Do you have the links? Pubmed's huge and without knowing what search parameters you used....

I'm not the least bit worried about contagion from the Eucharist, just overly curious.
 

Deacon Lance

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And guess what happens to the cleric who lets mold grow on the Holy Gifts? He has to answer for it.
Yes, he does. So what? You are sidestepping. If the Holy Gifts behave as you say this should be impossible. If the Holy Gifts destroy viruses on contact, mold shouldn’t survive contact either.
 

Richmond

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Using the search terms "holy communion" I got 17 results. #1 was a review paper that basically says no evidence of disease transmission but can't rule it out.
Pre-2020 studies generally indicated that while bacteria were present in the chalice and on utensils, there had been no outbreaks traced to the Eucharist as practiced by ANY Christian church or denomination (schismatics and heterodox appear to be safe too).
I recall looking this up in 2009 and noting that there had been no transmissions linked to the chalice. For comparison, in 2020 and beyond public health officials have still not been able to impeach the Eucharist

"eucharist" brings up 38 results but a lot of these appear to be essays in bioethics journals - as these are not scientific papers, I would not be able to gauge their quality.

"holy mass" produced no results

"chalice" and "priest" produced so many irrelevant results as to be useless

"liturgy" brought up a paper by S Budaev recommending the usual masks and distancing, as well as communion in the hand (sounds messy for us Orthodox)

Hope that helps
 
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I don’t know. St Nikodemus ordered separate spoons and disinfecting them. Did he know someone got sick or was he just being cautious?
I don't think anyone alive can know that, unless he wrote about it specifically.

I've seen at least a couple of peer-reviewed medical studies that acknowledge no outbreaks have been traced to the Eucharist. You can look this up on Pubmed.
From the part of the science, the common communion cup may serve as a potential vehicle for transmission. However, the risk is considerably lower compared to other conditions of social gathering. Furthermore, the transmission of any infectious disease has never been documented. Definite answers cannot be obtained in this issue. Appropriate assessment of the Holy Eucharist needs to be extended beyond a partial scientific analysis. Science seems to stand in opposition with the concept of Holy Communion. The greatest "medicine of the soul and the body" cannot be explained with human reasoning and pure logical criteria.
 

Deacon Lance

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Nobody would have ever gotten sick from partaking of the Eucharist... not from the spoon, chalice, hands, etc.

If the saint did utilize separate spoons, it was most likely to calm the fears of his flock... so they would continue to partake of the Holy Sacrament. Sometimes, you have to realize that people are fallible and need to work with that fact... for their own salvation....
But according to many here that is blasphemy.
 

Ainnir

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Personally, I prefer forks.
 
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