Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

[jmbejdl]

See, St. Thomas a Becket is a saint in both the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches now. Other Christians are good at forgiving each other. Never mind, can't happen here. What was I thinking?

What a peculiar comparison. Thomas Becket was a Roman Catholic Archbishop murdered at the instigation of a Roman Catholic king for political reasons long before the Anglican Church ever existed so he was inherited as a saint from the RCC - I fail to see how this has anything to do with forgiveness between Rome and the C of E. Are you perhaps thinking of Thomas More or Thomas Cranmer (or both)? The former was executed by a Protestant monarch and is now a saint in the RCC. The latter was executed by a Roman Catholic monarch and is regarded as a Protestant martyr (and I've seen him described as a saint by some Anglicans). Unfortunately for the comparison being made, neither to my knowledge is venerated in any way by the opposite party.

 

[PJ]

Thanks for all your responses.

This is a follow-up from the same source:

If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.

I forgot to add, Does anyone disagree with that conditional statement? (I'm addressing this to anyone, even if you don't think the stories about Josaphat were made up.)

I'm actually not clear on what the 'analogy' is supposed to be.

Keep in mind, the quote I gave in the OP (namely, "If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat?") isn't the only thing he PR said. Perhaps I should have quoted the entire post (at least) that came from:

I personally do not believe that his veneration among Eastern (particularly Ukrainian) Catholics should be any more of a stumbling block to unity than the veneration of those Orthodox saints who are venerated primarily (not exclusively) because of their opposition to Rome and/or (re)union with the Roman Patriarchate. If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat? In a similar vein, even Western Catholics venerate certain saints who were supporters of anti-Popes during the time of the Great Western Schism.

The point is that saints ought not to be venerated because of their support or opposition to this or that person or institution. Saints ought to be venerated because of the holiness of their lives. Holiness does not mean that they are incapable of error and wrong judgment.

So, for my own two cents I'd say, insofar as he led a holy life St. Josaphat ought to continue to be venerated. But his actions of proselytism should be understood within their historical context, and then condemned as a misguided effort at achieving Church unity dependent on the historical model of Church unity in his day.

St. Josaphat, pray for us!

If you want to see the whole thread that's from: St Josaphat and East-West Ecumenism.

But if the point is that RC's should (and do) have the right to venerate whomever they want from their own faith tradition, I'd agree with that--however, I'm not sure you would want me to agree, since I'm one of those who thinks the idea of corporate reunion between Orthodoxy and modern Rome is a pipe-dream, with the fact that Orthodox revere St. Mark for his resistance to the subversion of the Orthodox faith to Latin innovation while Rome reveres Josaphat for his attempts at subjugating and subverting the Orthodox faith as just one more reason why it's a pipe-dream.

I can't say I see it that way, but it's makes sense that you would.

 

[ialmisry]

Thanks for all your responses.

This is a follow-up from the same source:

If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.

I forgot to add, Does anyone disagree with that conditional statement? (I'm addressing this to anyone, even if you don't think the stories about Josaphat were made up.)

I'm actually not clear on what the 'analogy' is supposed to be.

Keep in mind, the quote I gave in the OP (namely, "If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat?") isn't the only thing he PR said. Perhaps I should have quoted the entire post (at least) that came from:

I personally do not believe that his veneration among Eastern (particularly Ukrainian) Catholics should be any more of a stumbling block to unity than the veneration of those Orthodox saints who are venerated primarily (not exclusively) because of their opposition to Rome and/or (re)union with the Roman Patriarchate. If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat? In a similar vein, even Western Catholics venerate certain saints who were supporters of anti-Popes during the time of the Great Western Schism.

The point is that saints ought not to be venerated because of their support or opposition to this or that person or institution. Saints ought to be venerated because of the holiness of their lives. Holiness does not mean that they are incapable of error and wrong judgment.

So, for my own two cents I'd say, insofar as he led a holy life St. Josaphat ought to continue to be venerated. But his actions of proselytism should be understood within their historical context, and then condemned as a misguided effort at achieving Church unity dependent on the historical model of Church unity in his day.

St. Josaphat, pray for us!

If you want to see the whole thread that's from: St Josaphat and East-West Ecumenism.

But if the point is that RC's should (and do) have the right to venerate whomever they want from their own faith tradition, I'd agree with that--however, I'm not sure you would want me to agree, since I'm one of those who thinks the idea of corporate reunion between Orthodoxy and modern Rome is a pipe-dream, with the fact that Orthodox revere St. Mark for his resistance to the subversion of the Orthodox faith to Latin innovation while Rome reveres Josaphat for his attempts at subjugating and subverting the Orthodox faith as just one more reason why it's a pipe-dream.

I can't say I see it that way, but it's makes sense that you would.

This inconvenient truth from your linked thread is interesting:

In fact, the Orthodox St Athanasius of Brest, martyred by Latins for his opposition to the Union of Brest, was much more popular with Eastern Catholics who went to his shrine at Brest for his feastday on September 18th. This upset the Polish Jesuits who then concocted a feastday for St Josaphat on Sept. 16th to try and deflect devotion to Athanasius.

I have a prayerbook from the 19th century that lists the feast of St Josaphat on Sept. 16th - a date that had no connection with his life. It was later changed back to November 12/25.

 

[J Michael]

For what it's worth, St. Constantine had his brother killed, and St. Paul killed Christians before his conversion. Both of these people repented and were forgiven. I guess that can't be done again... never mind that the Orthodox turned around and killed Kuncevyc, because when they do it, it's okay.  : See, St. Thomas a Becket is a saint in both the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches now. Other Christians are good at forgiving each other. Never mind, can't happen here. What was I thinking?

[size=10pt]It's all right.  God forgives.[/size]

M.

Amen, amen, amen!

It's a good thing, too, because we humans seem to have great difficulty with it oftentimes.

 

[mike]

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position. 

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides. 

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

This I doubt. Sounds like propaganda.

There's not even one shred of evidence for anything like that.

Orthodox szlachta wrote it in a complaint for him to Sejm.

http://www.bractwocim.cerkiew.pl/biuletyn/biuletyn4_2011%2854%29.pdf
http://www.przegladprawoslawny.pl/articles.php?id_n=80&id=8

 

[J Michael]

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position. 

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides. 

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

This I doubt. Sounds like propaganda.

There's not even one shred of evidence for anything like that.

Orthodox szlachta wrote it in a complaint for him to Sejm.

http://www.bractwocim.cerkiew.pl/biuletyn/biuletyn4_2011%2854%29.pdf
http://www.przegladprawoslawny.pl/articles.php?id_n=80&id=8

??? ??? ???

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

 

[mike]

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

I'm aware of that. Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar.

Try google translate.

 

[J Michael]

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

I'm aware of that. Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar.

Try google translate.

Are you trying to make some kind of point with that comment?

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation. 

 

[mike]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.  

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.  

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.  

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

 

[J Michael]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation. 

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position. 

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides. 

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense.  You did what?  Provide a translation?  Or dig up corpses?

And what was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?

 

[mike]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.  

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.  

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.  

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense.  You did what?  Provide a translation?  Or dig up corpses?

In that texts it is written that Kuncewicz was desecrating Orthodox cemeteries. Some of you wrote there are no proofs for that, so I provided them.

 

[J Michael]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.  

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.  

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.  

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense.  You did what?  Provide a translation?  Or dig up corpses?

In that texts it is written that Kuncewicz was desecrating Orthodox cemeteries. Some of you wrote there are no proofs for that, so I provided them.

A.  I wasn't one of those asking for "proofs", although I could have been  ;D.

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

 

[PJ]

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

I'm aware of that. Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar.

Not to get roped in here, but I think the thread we had about M. Kolbe showed that lack of fluency with Polish had little to do with J Michael's avatar.

 

[mike]

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

You didn't trust me when I translated it. How can I make it understandable? I provided the original links for not being accused of misrepresentation.

What else can I do? Teach you Polish? Hire an accredited translator?

There are a few more Polish-speaking posters here. You can ask them if you don't believe me.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

Nothing particularly. That was only a premise for me to suppose you don't speak Polish. I cannot imagine a Jew when he knows what he thought about your nation to praise him.

 

[elijahmaria]

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

You don't trust me when I translated it. How can I make it understandable. I provided the original links for not being accused of misrepresentation.

What else can I do? Teach you Polish? Hire an accredited translator?

There are a few more Polish-speaking posters here. You can ask them if you don't believe me.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

Nothing particularly. That was only a premise for me to suppose you don't speak Polish. I cannot imagine a Jew when he knows what he thought about your nation to praise him.

The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm

 

[podkarpatska]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

Sorry if my feelings offend many of you from either 'side' - i.e. our Orthodox 'side' or the Roman Catholic 'side'.

Frankly - there is only one side - that of God. The dead will have to account for their lives at the final judgment day - not just the saints of the title of this thread but all of their biographers as well - including those who spread calumny and falsehoods and exaggerations for their own secular quasi-religious agendas.

 

[mike]

The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm

Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.

http://www.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,1815

 

[J Michael]

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

You don't trust me when I translated it. How can I make it understandable. I provided the original links for not being accused of misrepresentation.

What else can I do? Teach you Polish? Hire an accredited translator?

There are a few more Polish-speaking posters here. You can ask them if you don't believe me.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

Nothing particularly. That was only a premise for me to suppose you don't speak Polish. I cannot imagine a Jew when he knows what he thought about your nation to praise him.

See my p.m. to you, to follow shortly.

 

[J Michael]

The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm

Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.

http://www.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,1815

Let's not go down *that* road....

 

[PJ]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

 

[podkarpatska]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

 

[J Michael]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

As you so often do, you cut through the crap that many of us, myself unfortunately included, tend to spew forth here.  Well said.  We make the work of the above-mentioned prince and his minions all too easy.  Thanks for the reality check!

 

[elijahmaria]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox. 

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

 

[Schultz]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.  

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Or perhaps not all Orthodox are hiding under the beds to slaughter the poor Catholics in the dead of night.

Perhaps some of us are just fricking sick of all this pointless bickering which only serves the demons of triumphalism and deceit.  Perhaps some of us are tired of seeing the same parties engage in mutual verbal masturbation over their pet subjects.  No, we don't have to read it (that's on us), but we also don't want people who may be interested in Eastern Christianity seeing just how much we "love" one another.

All this in this shadowless light of Pascha.

 

[J Michael]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox. 

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Perhaps I've misinterpreted both of you, but I don't think podkarpatska's intent was to duck any uncomfortable realities.  Rather, it strikes me that he is attempting to keep the tone at least civil, even if we think each other incorrect about this, that, or the other.  The tone on this board, at least on this sub-forum, has a tendency to pretty rapidly degenerate into, as you say, calumny, unwarranted and childish sarcasm, and outright nastiness, all of which is totally unnecessary, even if we disagree with each other.

 

[PJ]

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.  

I don't know if that's true or not, but I think there can, at times, be a certain tendency on any forum to disallow opposing views.

I don't know if you saw it or not, but St. Josaphat was also discussed a few weeks ago (before Alex started a thread about him) on another part of CAF, namely the group Our Eucharistic Journey. First there were some very positive statements about him (e.g. "Lord, fill your Church with the Spirit that gave Saint Josaphat courage to lay down his life for his people.") Then there was a post by me, in which I quoted from byzcath

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

This disappeared not too long after, and this was posted:

It may also be helpful to re-post here some of our earlier messages on the Group's Wall when we started the Group.  They shed further light on the purpose of our Group.  Here they are:

November 2, 2010 - "In our Journey, the Eucharist will be our springboard.  It is not our primary goal to engage in a purely intellectual, systematic exercise to accumulate knowledge.  Rather, our hope is that we become better acquainted with Our Lord, appreciate better what He has done for us, and end up with a better understanding of His unique purpose for each of us."

Novembe 24, 2010 - ".... through prayerful conversations, our Group hopes to obtain better knowledge of, and love for, our Lord Jesus, truly present in the Blessed Sacrament ...".
---

Thus, messages leaning towards speculative arguments, discussions or debates (which may be helpful) are best posted in other groups created specifically for this purpose.  Thank you and may the Lord bless us all!

which I take to mean that pro-Josaphat posts are allowed there but anti-Josaphat posts aren't.

 

[elijahmaria]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.  

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Or perhaps not all Orthodox are hiding under the beds to slaughter the poor Catholics in the dead of night.

My dear, I don't think that is at all the issue in this particular discussion.

I think it is quite the other way around.

Question is why do the myths persist?

Mary

 

[elijahmaria]

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...If I knew these things then I would not allow that comment to stand unanswered on any Forum of my own keeping.

I would not however make it disappear.  I have never complimented CAF for their native genius.

M.

 

[ialmisry]

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him

anyone NOT in the custody of the Polish king?

 

[elijahmaria]

Second thoughts

 

[NicholasMyra]

For what it's worth, St. Constantine had his brother killed

Wasn't he killed under Roman Law while Constantine was Emperor, versus Constantine having him killed?

 

[J Michael]

For what it's worth, St. Constantine had his brother killed

Wasn't he killed under Roman Law while Constantine was Emperor, versus Constantine having him killed?

Does that somehow make him less killed  ;D?  Or Constantine less responsible?  Didn't he also have his wife and eldest son killed?  Seems I read something somewhere about that, but I'm not sure.

 

[PJ]

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...If I knew these things then I would not allow that comment to stand unanswered on any Forum of my own keeping.

I would not however make it disappear.  I have never complimented CAF for their native genius.

M.

They did allow the statement "His fidelity to the Roman See and his desire for union between the Ukranian Church and Rome led to his murder at Vitebsk (in 1623).

 

[podkarpatska]

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

The 17th century was a fun time in the western world. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.

 

[podkarpatska]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox. 

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Perhaps I've misinterpreted both of you, but I don't think podkarpatska's intent was to duck any uncomfortable realities.  Rather, it strikes me that he is attempting to keep the tone at least civil, even if we think each other incorrect about this, that, or the other.  The tone on this board, at least on this sub-forum, has a tendency to pretty rapidly degenerate into, as you say, calumny, unwarranted and childish sarcasm, and outright nastiness, all of which is totally unnecessary, even if we disagree with each other.

Thank you. I tend to take much of hagiography with, shall we say, a 'grain of salt' - especially so in the case of 'controversial' saints - be they of the Church undivided and of the post schism saints of BOTH the east and the west. This is particularly so in the case of saints of the modern era in the western church as the whole approach to sanctification used by the west strikes my eastern mind as - well, bizarre.

The recent piece on 60 Minutes this winter about the canon lawyer in Rome who specializes in taking on these cases - with a retainer of course - really caught me off guard. Sorry my Catholic friends, but just because I try to be even minded and try to find common ground and calmer waters doesn't mean I buy your polemics or apologetics. (I have no use for polemics in any subject matter 99.9% of my time anyway, but that's a different story altogether.)

And as to St. Josaphat being murdered on account of his fervent desire for union, I suppose he was. After all there were others who had a fervent desire that union not occur on the terms he offered. Not all of those were religiously minded Orthodox believers- shocking revelation here - but there were secular princes etc.... who manipulated the situation on the ground for their own nefarious purposes.

 

[J Michael]

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

[size=10pt]The 17th century was a fun time in the western world[/size]. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.

Not nearly as much "fun" as the 20th century.  Not even close!

 

[mike]

Not all of those were religiously minded Orthodox believers- shocking revelation here - but there were secular princes etc.... who manipulated the situation on the ground for their own nefarious purposes.

Name 3.

They did allow the statement "His fidelity to the Roman See and his desire for union between the Ukranian Church and Rome led to his murder at Vitebsk (in 1623).

No. He was killed because he perseccuted the Orthodox.

 

[PJ]

The 17th century was a fun time in the western world. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.

I think you're trying to hard. It shouldn't take much to get people on this forum to hate the West.

 

[ialmisry]

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

I never heard of him the 16 years I was in the OCA that I recall.  I first remember him from a Latin posting praise of him on the Eastern Christian Forum of CAF.  IIRC it was another Latin who posted the letter of the PL Chancellor complaining to Josaphat on his conduct (digging up graves, beheadings, etc...) as the first rebuttal.

 

[PJ]

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

I never heard of him the 16 years I was in the OCA that I recall.  I first remember him from a Latin posting praise of him on the Eastern Christian Forum of CAF. 

To be fair, presumably it's a lot harder for ECs not to have him on their "radar" since Pope John Paul II established the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma, in 1983.