Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

[jmbejdl]

See, St. Thomas a Becket is a saint in both the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches now. Other Christians are good at forgiving each other. Never mind, can't happen here. What was I thinking?

What a peculiar comparison. Thomas Becket was a Roman Catholic Archbishop murdered at the instigation of a Roman Catholic king for political reasons long before the Anglican Church ever existed so he was inherited as a saint from the RCC - I fail to see how this has anything to do with forgiveness between Rome and the C of E. Are you perhaps thinking of Thomas More or Thomas Cranmer (or both)? The former was executed by a Protestant monarch and is now a saint in the RCC. The latter was executed by a Roman Catholic monarch and is regarded as a Protestant martyr (and I've seen him described as a saint by some Anglicans). Unfortunately for the comparison being made, neither to my knowledge is venerated in any way by the opposite party.

 

[PJ]

Thanks for all your responses.

This is a follow-up from the same source:

If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.

I forgot to add, Does anyone disagree with that conditional statement? (I'm addressing this to anyone, even if you don't think the stories about Josaphat were made up.)

I'm actually not clear on what the 'analogy' is supposed to be.

Keep in mind, the quote I gave in the OP (namely, "If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat?") isn't the only thing he PR said. Perhaps I should have quoted the entire post (at least) that came from:

I personally do not believe that his veneration among Eastern (particularly Ukrainian) Catholics should be any more of a stumbling block to unity than the veneration of those Orthodox saints who are venerated primarily (not exclusively) because of their opposition to Rome and/or (re)union with the Roman Patriarchate. If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat? In a similar vein, even Western Catholics venerate certain saints who were supporters of anti-Popes during the time of the Great Western Schism.

The point is that saints ought not to be venerated because of their support or opposition to this or that person or institution. Saints ought to be venerated because of the holiness of their lives. Holiness does not mean that they are incapable of error and wrong judgment.

So, for my own two cents I'd say, insofar as he led a holy life St. Josaphat ought to continue to be venerated. But his actions of proselytism should be understood within their historical context, and then condemned as a misguided effort at achieving Church unity dependent on the historical model of Church unity in his day.

St. Josaphat, pray for us!

If you want to see the whole thread that's from: St Josaphat and East-West Ecumenism.

But if the point is that RC's should (and do) have the right to venerate whomever they want from their own faith tradition, I'd agree with that--however, I'm not sure you would want me to agree, since I'm one of those who thinks the idea of corporate reunion between Orthodoxy and modern Rome is a pipe-dream, with the fact that Orthodox revere St. Mark for his resistance to the subversion of the Orthodox faith to Latin innovation while Rome reveres Josaphat for his attempts at subjugating and subverting the Orthodox faith as just one more reason why it's a pipe-dream.

I can't say I see it that way, but it's makes sense that you would.

 

[ialmisry]

Thanks for all your responses.

This is a follow-up from the same source:

If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.

I forgot to add, Does anyone disagree with that conditional statement? (I'm addressing this to anyone, even if you don't think the stories about Josaphat were made up.)

I'm actually not clear on what the 'analogy' is supposed to be.

Keep in mind, the quote I gave in the OP (namely, "If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat?") isn't the only thing he PR said. Perhaps I should have quoted the entire post (at least) that came from:

I personally do not believe that his veneration among Eastern (particularly Ukrainian) Catholics should be any more of a stumbling block to unity than the veneration of those Orthodox saints who are venerated primarily (not exclusively) because of their opposition to Rome and/or (re)union with the Roman Patriarchate. If the Orthodox can venerate the likes of St. Mark of Ephasus, why should Eastern Catholics not be permitted to venerate the likes of St. Josaphat? In a similar vein, even Western Catholics venerate certain saints who were supporters of anti-Popes during the time of the Great Western Schism.

The point is that saints ought not to be venerated because of their support or opposition to this or that person or institution. Saints ought to be venerated because of the holiness of their lives. Holiness does not mean that they are incapable of error and wrong judgment.

So, for my own two cents I'd say, insofar as he led a holy life St. Josaphat ought to continue to be venerated. But his actions of proselytism should be understood within their historical context, and then condemned as a misguided effort at achieving Church unity dependent on the historical model of Church unity in his day.

St. Josaphat, pray for us!

If you want to see the whole thread that's from: St Josaphat and East-West Ecumenism.

But if the point is that RC's should (and do) have the right to venerate whomever they want from their own faith tradition, I'd agree with that--however, I'm not sure you would want me to agree, since I'm one of those who thinks the idea of corporate reunion between Orthodoxy and modern Rome is a pipe-dream, with the fact that Orthodox revere St. Mark for his resistance to the subversion of the Orthodox faith to Latin innovation while Rome reveres Josaphat for his attempts at subjugating and subverting the Orthodox faith as just one more reason why it's a pipe-dream.

I can't say I see it that way, but it's makes sense that you would.

This inconvenient truth from your linked thread is interesting:

In fact, the Orthodox St Athanasius of Brest, martyred by Latins for his opposition to the Union of Brest, was much more popular with Eastern Catholics who went to his shrine at Brest for his feastday on September 18th. This upset the Polish Jesuits who then concocted a feastday for St Josaphat on Sept. 16th to try and deflect devotion to Athanasius.

I have a prayerbook from the 19th century that lists the feast of St Josaphat on Sept. 16th - a date that had no connection with his life. It was later changed back to November 12/25.

 

[J Michael]

For what it's worth, St. Constantine had his brother killed, and St. Paul killed Christians before his conversion. Both of these people repented and were forgiven. I guess that can't be done again... never mind that the Orthodox turned around and killed Kuncevyc, because when they do it, it's okay.  : See, St. Thomas a Becket is a saint in both the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches now. Other Christians are good at forgiving each other. Never mind, can't happen here. What was I thinking?

[size=10pt]It's all right.  God forgives.[/size]

M.

Amen, amen, amen!

It's a good thing, too, because we humans seem to have great difficulty with it oftentimes.

 

[mike]

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position. 

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides. 

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

This I doubt. Sounds like propaganda.

There's not even one shred of evidence for anything like that.

Orthodox szlachta wrote it in a complaint for him to Sejm.

http://www.bractwocim.cerkiew.pl/biuletyn/biuletyn4_2011%2854%29.pdf
http://www.przegladprawoslawny.pl/articles.php?id_n=80&id=8

 

[J Michael]

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position. 

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides. 

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

This I doubt. Sounds like propaganda.

There's not even one shred of evidence for anything like that.

Orthodox szlachta wrote it in a complaint for him to Sejm.

http://www.bractwocim.cerkiew.pl/biuletyn/biuletyn4_2011%2854%29.pdf
http://www.przegladprawoslawny.pl/articles.php?id_n=80&id=8

??? ??? ???

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

 

[mike]

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

I'm aware of that. Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar.

Try google translate.

 

[J Michael]

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

I'm aware of that. Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar.

Try google translate.

Are you trying to make some kind of point with that comment?

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation. 

 

[mike]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.  

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.  

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.  

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

 

[J Michael]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation. 

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position. 

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides. 

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense.  You did what?  Provide a translation?  Or dig up corpses?

And what was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?

 

[mike]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.  

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.  

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.  

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense.  You did what?  Provide a translation?  Or dig up corpses?

In that texts it is written that Kuncewicz was desecrating Orthodox cemeteries. Some of you wrote there are no proofs for that, so I provided them.

 

[J Michael]

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.  

I did it:

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union.  It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent.  In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.  

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.  

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense.  You did what?  Provide a translation?  Or dig up corpses?

In that texts it is written that Kuncewicz was desecrating Orthodox cemeteries. Some of you wrote there are no proofs for that, so I provided them.

A.  I wasn't one of those asking for "proofs", although I could have been  ;D.

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

 

[PJ]

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish?  That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

I'm aware of that. Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar.

Not to get roped in here, but I think the thread we had about M. Kolbe showed that lack of fluency with Polish had little to do with J Michael's avatar.

 

[mike]

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

You didn't trust me when I translated it. How can I make it understandable? I provided the original links for not being accused of misrepresentation.

What else can I do? Teach you Polish? Hire an accredited translator?

There are a few more Polish-speaking posters here. You can ask them if you don't believe me.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

Nothing particularly. That was only a premise for me to suppose you don't speak Polish. I cannot imagine a Jew when he knows what he thought about your nation to praise him.

 

[elijahmaria]

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

You don't trust me when I translated it. How can I make it understandable. I provided the original links for not being accused of misrepresentation.

What else can I do? Teach you Polish? Hire an accredited translator?

There are a few more Polish-speaking posters here. You can ask them if you don't believe me.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

Nothing particularly. That was only a premise for me to suppose you don't speak Polish. I cannot imagine a Jew when he knows what he thought about your nation to praise him.

The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm

 

[podkarpatska]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

Sorry if my feelings offend many of you from either 'side' - i.e. our Orthodox 'side' or the Roman Catholic 'side'.

Frankly - there is only one side - that of God. The dead will have to account for their lives at the final judgment day - not just the saints of the title of this thread but all of their biographers as well - including those who spread calumny and falsehoods and exaggerations for their own secular quasi-religious agendas.

 

[mike]

The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm

Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.

http://www.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,1815

 

[J Michael]

B.  You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

You don't trust me when I translated it. How can I make it understandable. I provided the original links for not being accused of misrepresentation.

What else can I do? Teach you Polish? Hire an accredited translator?

There are a few more Polish-speaking posters here. You can ask them if you don't believe me.

C. [size=10pt] What  was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?[/size]

Nothing particularly. That was only a premise for me to suppose you don't speak Polish. I cannot imagine a Jew when he knows what he thought about your nation to praise him.

See my p.m. to you, to follow shortly.

 

[J Michael]

The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm

Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.

http://www.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,1815

Let's not go down *that* road....

 

[PJ]

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.