Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

elijahmaria

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Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
Sorry my Catholic friends, but just because I try to be even minded and try to find common ground and calmer waters doesn't mean I buy your polemics or apologetics.
Why dwell on the obvious?  Only the truly blind would think otherwise.
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.
 

elijahmaria

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.
Maybe he can.  You would not accept it in any event, Maester WoolPuller...
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.
Maybe he can.  You would not accept it in any event, Maester WoolPuller...
I wouldn't be on the grand jury. Would they accept it?

Btw, you source disputed, not disproved.
 

PJ

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ialmisry said:
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
Yul Brynner's Paradox: How can it be that everyone knows one thing if many people believe another?
 

mike

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elijahmaria said:
with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...
links?
 

J Michael

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Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...
[size=10pt][size=10pt]links?[/size][/size]
Yes, please!  And I'll take my eggs over-easy!  So kind of you to offer  ;D!  (Not that I'm particularly bothered, as I love sausage in most forms, but some here prefer theirs in patties.  Now, is that Polish sausage, i.e. kielbasa, or chorizo, or spicy Italian?  ;D ;D)

Sorry, but after our last little tiff about translation, I just couldn't help myself.  Hope you see the humor, such as it is!
 

podkarpatska

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I just wanted to add in connection with my comment about we Orthodox not having St. Josaphat on our radar (and Isa's confirmation of the same) I don't think that it is a coincidence that if one does a Google search of the Saint - under any variety of his names or spellings thereof - you simply will not find any Orthodox source material or discussion about him for pages and pages of links- unless, like here, it is started by non-Orthodox. There are pages and pages of Catholic sourced polemic and apologetics in his hagiography - much of which makes him almost sound like a cartoon character rather than a once living person.

I go back to my point about hagiography - while on one level it may be viewed as positive instructions for the faithful on a Christian life well lived (any number of purposes - charity, kindness, martyrdom etc....) one simply can not deny the propaganda value it may also possess in the struggle between competing ecclesiastical structures during the history of Christendom.

I think that many Catholics - both east and west - like the stories of St. Josaphat because they provide them a 'comfort' level, if you will - which justifies their position regarding claims of being 'Orthodox in union with the Pope.' To call upon his intercession during Rome's 'Week of Prayer for Christian Unity' is insulting to any Orthodox from the most open-minded to the most traditional -regardless of their underlying feelings about ecumenical contact with the Roman Church and unity in general.

As to the revival of the cult of St. Josaphat in the late 20th century - that has as much to do with the heavy handed treatment of Ukrainians and Ukrainian Greek Catholics at the hands of the Soviets and their unwitting allies in the Russian Church as it does with reality.

As for Greek Catholic witnesses and martyrs, for me the real histories of 20th century men, like Blessed Pavel and Blessed Teodor and their resistance to the liquidation of their Greek Catholic Churches post WW2 speak more vibrantly and with more power of truth than do dusty 17th century stories borrowed in many ways from the calumny of the of anti-Semites of east Europe and the myth building regarding saintly lives used to educate peasants by both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches of that era.

That's why I think this discussion is destructive and pointless. And I would add, while I don't expect anyone to 'check with me' before starting a post - be prepared for a response with which you may take issue.
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
I just wanted to add in connection with my comment about we Orthodox not having St. Josaphat on our radar (and Isa's confirmation of the same) I don't think that it is a coincidence that if one does a Google search of the Saint - under any variety of his names or spellings thereof - you simply will not find any Orthodox source material or discussion about him for pages and pages of links- unless, like here, it is started by non-Orthodox. There are pages and pages of Catholic sourced polemic and apologetics in his hagiography - much of which makes him almost sound like a cartoon character rather than a once living person.

I go back to my point about hagiography - while on one level it may be viewed as positive instructions for the faithful on a Christian life well lived (any number of purposes - charity, kindness, martyrdom etc....) one simply can not deny the propaganda value it may also possess in the struggle between competing ecclesiastical structures during the history of Christendom.

I think that many Catholics - both east and west - like the stories of St. Josaphat because they provide them a 'comfort' level, if you will - which justifies their position regarding claims of being 'Orthodox in union with the Pope.' To call upon his intercession during Rome's 'Week of Prayer for Christian Unity' is insulting to any Orthodox from the most open-minded to the most traditional -regardless of their underlying feelings about ecumenical contact with the Roman Church and unity in general.

As to the revival of the cult of St. Josaphat in the late 20th century - that has as much to do with the heavy handed treatment of Ukrainians and Ukrainian Greek Catholics at the hands of the Soviets and their unwitting allies in the Russian Church as it does with reality.

As for Greek Catholic witnesses and martyrs, for me the real histories of 20th century men, like Blessed Pavel and Blessed Teodor and their resistance to the liquidation of their Greek Catholic Churches post WW2 speak more vibrantly and with more power of truth than do dusty 17th century stories borrowed in many ways from the calumny of the of anti-Semites of east Europe and the myth building regarding saintly lives used to educate peasants by both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches of that era.

That's why I think this discussion is destructive and pointless. And I would add, while I don't expect anyone to 'check with me' before starting a post - be prepared for a response with which you may take issue.
I agree with much that is here, in particular, the penultimate paragraph.
 
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For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
 

podkarpatska

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griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.

 

ialmisry

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griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
Yes, we've dealt with them before.  They can't exist: the King of Poland and Lithuania said the Orthodox did not exist after 1596.  Kuntsevych died 12 November 1623 in the realm of Poland and Lithuania, where no Orthodox existed, as the Union of Brest tells us, after 1596.

"Persecut Saint Josaphat."  Besides the problem of their non-existence, according to the King's enforcement of the "Union of Brest," there the problem of these non-existent Orthodox having power in Vatican supporting Poland-Lithuania, in order to persecute him.

Who are these non-existent Orthodox Christians whose "sworn testimonies" are given.  Surely they had names, no?
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.
Silly podkarpatska!  Don't you know that the Vatican only tells us the truth?  That the Orthodox gave up their Faith freely and without any coercion on the parts of the Vaticans sons?  No force nor secular inducements were EVER used to bring the Orthodox "into Catholic unity"?  Surely the Latin Poles knew better than Ruthenian Byzantines when the former overruled the latter and pushed for Kuntsevych's canonization?  He's a saint: the Vatican says so.  The case is closed.

::)
 

elijahmaria

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.
Silly podkarpatska!  Don't you know that the Vatican only tells us the truth?  That the Orthodox gave up their Faith freely and without any coercion on the parts of the Vaticans sons?  No force nor secular inducements were EVER used to bring the Orthodox "into Catholic unity"?  Surely the Latin Poles knew better than Ruthenian Byzantines when the former overruled the latter and pushed for Kuntsevych's canonization?  He's a saint: the Vatican says so.  The case is closed.

::)
Haul out the slavering dogs!
 

PJ

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Hi all. I'm not sorry to see this thread going again -- and I'm particularly interested to see if anyone will disagree with the conditional statement that I quoted earlier from Phillip Rolfes,

Phillip Rolfes said:
If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.
-- but I would also like to say, just for the record, that I don't think PR and I have the same purpose in discussing this or the same attitude. I say this in light of what he said more recently:

Phillip Rolfes said:
The fact of the matter is that he is revered as a saint among Ukrainian Catholics. The rest of us just have to deal with it. :p
 

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.
My comments hardly merited such sarcasm - especially from someone who professes to have much love and understanding of the eastern church. It is not unreasonable from an academic point of view to discount material prepared by a group with a 'stake' in the argument, particularly when the argument is one of such emotional power - and one which has been the source of such exaggeration and lies - from both sides historically.

You would have me accept at face value 'apologia' issued by authors with a stake in the game while dismissing polemics from the other side. Neither can stand the scrutiny of critical analysis.

If you are honestly telling the Orthodox posters here that the use of a Saint of the western Church as controversial as is St. Josaphat is to the eastern Church as the proper 'icon' , symbol for, and representative of 'church unity' than I can only conclude that your view of any future 'unity' entails one thing and one thing only - the east must accept terms from the west on the order of those proposed by Grant to Lee at Appomattox Court House - unconditional surrender. Not gonna happen. And I don't expect it to happen the other way either.  By the way, I also take what your Pope says at face value in these matters and I don't see his public statements on the matter (nor those of his late predecessor) saying any such thing as well.

Give this a break. You will not change any minds here on the subject matter of this thread. I accept the fact that Ukrainian Catholics revere him as a saint. The rest of Orthodoxy has to deal with that at some point in time. Saying that does not mean that I find their hagiography to be much more than propaganda to advance the justification for the schism within traditional Ukrainian Christianity and to advance the disputes between western Ukrainians, their more Russophile minded eastern brothers and with the Russians themselves.


 

PJ

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podkarpatska said:
If you are honestly telling the Orthodox posters here that the use of a Saint of the western Church as controversial as is St. Josaphat is to the eastern Church as the proper 'icon' , symbol for, and representative of 'church unity' than I can only conclude that your view of any future 'unity' entails one thing and one thing only - the east must accept terms from the west on the order of those proposed by Grant to Lee at Appomattox Court House - unconditional surrender.
Could you define "the western Church" and "the eastern Church"?
 

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Peter J said:
Hi all. I'm not sorry to see this thread going again -- and I'm particularly interested to see if anyone will disagree with the conditional statement that I quoted earlier from Phillip Rolfes,

Phillip Rolfes said:
If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.
-- but I would also like to say, just for the record, that I don't think PR and I have the same purpose in discussing this or the same attitude. I say this in light of what he said more recently:

Phillip Rolfes said:
The fact of the matter is that he is revered as a saint among Ukrainian Catholics. The rest of us just have to deal with it. :p
Right believing Ukrainians, i.e. Pravoslavnij, do not.

In fact, he was revered as a saint among the Latin Poles.  THEY pushed for his canonization, not the Ukrainians/Ruthenians, and given the Poles' tyranny over the Ruthenians in Galicia at the time, it would seem it was not without an agenda.  The Poles, NOT the Ukrainians/Ruthenians (much less the Belarus, his nation at least in ancestry) dedicated churches to his memory shortly after his canonization, in not only the Old World, but the new.  Poles, not Ruthenians nor Ukrainians, founded the Basilica of "St. Josaphat" in Milawaukee in 1888

and Kashubians, not Ruthenians nor Ukrainians, built "St. Josaphat" parish in Chicago (I got thrown off of CAF when I admitted that I walked out of my way not to go by it and have to cross myself).  It would seem that he is revered as a saint among Polish Latins. The Ukrainians/Ruthenians just have to deal with it, or so the Vatican said in 1868, at the Poles' urgings (and payment).  Given the history of the "union of brest" in the hands of the Latin Poles, the agenda would be obvious.
 

podkarpatska

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ialmisry said:
Peter J said:
Hi all. I'm not sorry to see this thread going again -- and I'm particularly interested to see if anyone will disagree with the conditional statement that I quoted earlier from Phillip Rolfes,

Phillip Rolfes said:
If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.
-- but I would also like to say, just for the record, that I don't think PR and I have the same purpose in discussing this or the same attitude. I say this in light of what he said more recently:

Phillip Rolfes said:
The fact of the matter is that he is revered as a saint among Ukrainian Catholics. The rest of us just have to deal with it. :p
Right believing Ukrainians, i.e. Pravoslavnij, do not.

In fact, he was revered as a saint among the Latin Poles.  THEY pushed for his canonization, not the Ukrainians/Ruthenians, and given the Poles' tyranny over the Ruthenians in Galicia at the time, it would seem it was not without an agenda.  The Poles, NOT the Ukrainians/Ruthenians (much less the Belarus, his nation at least in ancestry) dedicated churches to his memory shortly after his canonization, in not only the Old World, but the new.  Poles, not Ruthenians nor Ukrainians, founded the Basilica of "St. Josaphat" in Milawaukee in 1888

and Kashubians, not Ruthenians nor Ukrainians, built "St. Josaphat" parish in Chicago (I got thrown off of CAF when I admitted that I walked out of my way not to go by it and have to cross myself).  It would seem that he is revered as a saint among Polish Latins. The Ukrainians/Ruthenians just have to deal with it, or so the Vatican said in 1868, at the Poles' urgings (and payment).  Given the history of the "union of brest" in the hands of the Latin Poles, the agenda would be obvious.
Like I said earlier, he certainly isn't on the radar among the Rusyn Orthodox (Ruthenians) and the modern BCC in the US and Europe (the Ruthenians) make little mention of him as well.

By the way, this whole 'payment' issue for advocates of one 'would be saints' cause or another has not been addressed, even though I referenced the 60 Minutes piece on the subject about two weeks ago....That troubled me and I was hoping to hear a reasonable argument explaining it, none has been forthcoming.
 

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ialmisry said:
Yes, we've dealt with them before.  They can't exist: the King of Poland and Lithuania said the Orthodox did not exist after 1596.  Kuntsevych died 12 November 1623 in the realm of Poland and Lithuania, where no Orthodox existed, as the Union of Brest tells us, after 1596.

"Persecut Saint Josaphat."  Besides the problem of their non-existence, according to the King's enforcement of the "Union of Brest," there the problem of these non-existent Orthodox having power in Vatican supporting Poland-Lithuania, in order to persecute him.

Who are these non-existent Orthodox Christians whose "sworn testimonies" are given.  Surely they had names, no?
Except of course they did exist, they even had an Orthodox bishop in Polotsk: Meletius Smotrytsky.  Decrees can't force people to change their allegiance.  Both Orthodox resistance to the Poles and Greek Catholic resistance to the Soviets prove that.
 

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podkarpatska said:
Give this a break. You will not change any minds here on the subject matter of this thread. I accept the fact that Ukrainian Catholics revere him as a saint. The rest of Orthodoxy has to deal with that at some point in time. Saying that does not mean that I find their hagiography to be much more than propaganda to advance the justification for the schism within traditional Ukrainian Christianity and to advance the disputes between western Ukrainians, their more Russophile minded eastern brothers and with the Russians themselves.
I have to agree with my friend.  The issue is just to emotionally charged.  May all the Martyrs under the Soviets, SS Tikhon of Mosocw and Vladimir of Kiev and Blessed Theodore of Mukachevo and Paul of Presov pray for us.
 

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podkarpatska said:
By the way, this whole 'payment' issue for advocates of one 'would be saints' cause or another has not been addressed, even though I referenced the 60 Minutes piece on the subject about two weeks ago....That troubled me and I was hoping to hear a reasonable argument explaining it, none has been forthcoming.
where was that?
 

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Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Yes, we've dealt with them before.  They can't exist: the King of Poland and Lithuania said the Orthodox did not exist after 1596.  Kuntsevych died 12 November 1623 in the realm of Poland and Lithuania, where no Orthodox existed, as the Union of Brest tells us, after 1596.

"Persecut Saint Josaphat."  Besides the problem of their non-existence, according to the King's enforcement of the "Union of Brest," there the problem of these non-existent Orthodox having power in Vatican supporting Poland-Lithuania, in order to persecute him.

Who are these non-existent Orthodox Christians whose "sworn testimonies" are given.  Surely they had names, no?
Except of course they did exist, they even had an Orthodox bishop in Polotsk: Meletius Smotrytsky.
Actually, they had an Orthodox bishop in L'viv and Przemyshl/Peremyshl, and would for nearly a century after Kuntsevych, joined later by the Orthodox replacement in Kiev and three other Orthodox bishops.

Deacon Lance said:
Decrees can't force people to change their allegiance.  Both Orthodox resistance to the Poles and Greek Catholic resistance to the Soviets prove that.
a point not often acknowledged.  My first question, since we have not been given any details on these "testimonies" beyond that those testifying were reportedly Orthodox (a dangerous thing to admit) and that they admitted persecuting Kuntsevych (on the one hand an even more dangerous thing to admit, on the other a rather odd claim as Kuntsevych was the one with the army and government on his side), is was this testimony, if it exists, given in exchange for immunity?
 

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Deacon Lance said:
podkarpatska said:
Give this a break. You will not change any minds here on the subject matter of this thread. I accept the fact that Ukrainian Catholics revere him as a saint. The rest of Orthodoxy has to deal with that at some point in time. Saying that does not mean that I find their hagiography to be much more than propaganda to advance the justification for the schism within traditional Ukrainian Christianity and to advance the disputes between western Ukrainians, their more Russophile minded eastern brothers and with the Russians themselves.
I have to agree with my friend.  The issue is just to emotionally charged.  May all the Martyrs under the Soviets, SS Tikhon of Mosocw and Vladimir of Kiev and Blessed Theodore of Mukachevo and Paul of Presov pray for us.
Two ethnically Rusyn Orthodox Bishops of the same generation did much in their lives to heal division in our lifetime.

Metropolitan Laurus of ROCOR worked tirelessly to bring together the long warring factions of Russian Orthodoxy in the face of great internal opposition and the late Metropolitan Nicholas did much to heal the long festering wounds in the American Rusyn communities caused by the schism within Greek Catholicism - both here and in Europe.

Neither would say much about emotionalism or the arguments of the past used to propagandize the faithful - they would merely say that we live in the present and we have our own crosses to bear.

When Metropolitan Nicholas proclaimed the Synaxis of the Orthodox Saints of Carpatho-Rus, he asked the faithful to also remember in their prayers the 20th century martyrs of the Communists - Blessed Teodor or Mukachevo and Paul of Presov.  This was a bold, but if you knew him well,  and the pain that many of his generation suffered on both sides of the church's walls, this was a most understandable and remarkable request.

The acts in lives of these two recently departed Orthodox Bishops are the things we should consider - not the heated acts of the long departed who lived in different times and under difficult political circumstances. I will refrain from judging them, as well as refraining from spreading their 'praises.'

 

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podkarpatska said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.
My comments hardly merited such sarcasm - especially from someone who professes to have much love and understanding of the eastern church. It is not unreasonable from an academic point of view to discount material prepared by a group with a 'stake' in the argument, particularly when the argument is one of such emotional power - and one which has been the source of such exaggeration and lies - from both sides historically.

You would have me accept at face value 'apologia' issued by authors with a stake in the game while dismissing polemics from the other side. Neither can stand the scrutiny of critical analysis.

If you are honestly telling the Orthodox posters here that the use of a Saint of the western Church as controversial as is St. Josaphat is to the eastern Church as the proper 'icon' , symbol for, and representative of 'church unity' than I can only conclude that your view of any future 'unity' entails one thing and one thing only - the east must accept terms from the west on the order of those proposed by Grant to Lee at Appomattox Court House - unconditional surrender. Not gonna happen. And I don't expect it to happen the other way either.  By the way, I also take what your Pope says at face value in these matters and I don't see his public statements on the matter (nor those of his late predecessor) saying any such thing as well.

Give this a break. You will not change any minds here on the subject matter of this thread. I accept the fact that Ukrainian Catholics revere him as a saint. The rest of Orthodoxy has to deal with that at some point in time. Saying that does not mean that I find their hagiography to be much more than propaganda to advance the justification for the schism within traditional Ukrainian Christianity and to advance the disputes between western Ukrainians, their more Russophile minded eastern brothers and with the Russians themselves.
If I did not give a rat's rump about Orthodoxy, I'd be hawking my wares at CAF.  The reason my note dripped with sarcasm is precisely because I do care and precisely because I can be hurt by you and others, and I am, repeatedly and without much fanfare on my part save for the occasional sarcastic squall when the truth gets lumped in with lies so that nothing at all changes.

I have no idea where you get the idea that I see St. Josaphat as a symbol for unity.  I've never presented that argument at all.  You presume in your haste to chastise.

What concerns me is what I said above, the absolute refusal to consider any evidence gathered from the Catholic point of view simply because it is Catholic.  From your comments here you are not better able to add detail to your rejection than I am when I give the Church, my Church, the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that Orthodox believers continue the kinds of behaviors that have spawned continued disunity and do so with venom and a vengeance tells me something about the past and the present.  I hope to God it is not the bellwether of the future.  When I stop caring, you'll know.  I won't be here.

XB!!

BB!!

M.

 

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Peter J said:
Thanks for all your responses.

This is a follow-up from the same source:

Phillip Rolfes said:
If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.
Here's a thought that I will throw out there for consideration: If St. Josaphat did not do those things (and I'm not saying he didn't, just if) then I think it would be quite appropriate to compare him with Alexis Toth, but not really with Mark of Ephesus. Why? Because Josaphat and Alexis were both instrumental in getting people to "switch sides" (from Orthodoxy to Catholicism or vice versa). Mark, however, didn't so much try to get people to switch sides but just focused on defending the integrity of his own side.
 

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If Kuncewicz hadn't ordered to kill anyone, desecrated churches and cemeteries townspeople from Viciebsk wouldn't have killed him and nobles wouldn't have complained for him to the king.
 

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There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
 

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podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
 

J Michael

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
This may not be the best of analogies, but isn't writing or documenting history a little like gathering statistics and then interpreting them?  Mind you, I'm neither an historian nor a statistician--phew!  ;)
 

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.



 

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elijahmaria

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
That's what I thought.

So all that's really being said here is that if the documents are Orthodox Catholic then they are true and if they are Papal Catholic then they are false...

I got that...

 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
That's what I thought.

So all that's really being said here is that if the documents are Orthodox Catholic then they are true and if they are Papal Catholic then they are false...

I got that...
You would do better to get the alleged documents (IIRC, you claimed to have seen them once) and produce them for inspection.  So far, we have basically been told to take known biased sources at their word.
 

elijahmaria

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
That's what I thought.

So all that's really being said here is that if the documents are Orthodox Catholic then they are true and if they are Papal Catholic then they are false...

I got that...
You would do better to get the alleged documents (IIRC, you claimed to have seen them once) and produce them for inspection.  So far, we have basically been told to take known biased sources at their word.
The only ones who absolutely KNOW them to be biased are the ones who would rather shoot the messenger than consider any other possibility than the one they have locked on to because it suits an emotional need.
 

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
That's what I thought.

So all that's really being said here is that if the documents are Orthodox Catholic then they are true and if they are Papal Catholic then they are false...

I got that...
You would do better to get the alleged documents (IIRC, you claimed to have seen them once) and produce them for inspection.  So far, we have basically been told to take known biased sources at their word.
I take it you're referring to "known [Catholic] biased sources"?  If so, are you implying that any known or unknown Orthodox sources are *not* biased?
 

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J Michael said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
That's what I thought.

So all that's really being said here is that if the documents are Orthodox Catholic then they are true and if they are Papal Catholic then they are false...

I got that...
You would do better to get the alleged documents (IIRC, you claimed to have seen them once) and produce them for inspection.  So far, we have basically been told to take known biased sources at their word.
I take it you're referring to "known [Catholic] biased sources"?  If so, are you implying that any known or unknown Orthodox sources are *not* biased?
The szlachta were not Orthodox, the Orthodox szlach having been all but eliminated, the scions of the Ostrogski, for instance, defiling the memory of their fathers by submitting to the Vatican, and dying out.  Lew Sapieha had apostacized many times over before he submitted to enforcing the Vatican's "union of brest."
 
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