Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

podkarpatska

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Peter J said:
podkarpatska said:
This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.
I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  ;)
No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.
 

J Michael

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podkarpatska said:
Peter J said:
podkarpatska said:
This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.
I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  ;)
No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.
As you so often do, you cut through the crap that many of us, myself unfortunately included, tend to spew forth here.  Well said.  We make the work of the above-mentioned prince and his minions all too easy.  Thanks for the reality check!
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
Peter J said:
podkarpatska said:
This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.
I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  ;)
No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.
One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox. 

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary
 

Schultz

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
Peter J said:
podkarpatska said:
This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.
I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  ;)
No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.
One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.  

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary
Or perhaps not all Orthodox are hiding under the beds to slaughter the poor Catholics in the dead of night.

Perhaps some of us are just fricking sick of all this pointless bickering which only serves the demons of triumphalism and deceit.  Perhaps some of us are tired of seeing the same parties engage in mutual verbal masturbation over their pet subjects.  No, we don't have to read it (that's on us), but we also don't want people who may be interested in Eastern Christianity seeing just how much we "love" one another.

All this in this shadowless light of Pascha.

 

J Michael

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
Peter J said:
podkarpatska said:
This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.
I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  ;)
No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.
One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox. 

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary
Perhaps I've misinterpreted both of you, but I don't think podkarpatska's intent was to duck any uncomfortable realities.  Rather, it strikes me that he is attempting to keep the tone at least civil, even if we think each other incorrect about this, that, or the other.  The tone on this board, at least on this sub-forum, has a tendency to pretty rapidly degenerate into, as you say, calumny, unwarranted and childish sarcasm, and outright nastiness, all of which is totally unnecessary, even if we disagree with each other.
 

PJ

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elijahmaria said:
One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.  
I don't know if that's true or not, but I think there can, at times, be a certain tendency on any forum to disallow opposing views.

I don't know if you saw it or not, but St. Josaphat was also discussed a few weeks ago (before Alex started a thread about him) on another part of CAF, namely the group Our Eucharistic Journey. First there were some very positive statements about him (e.g. "Lord, fill your Church with the Spirit that gave Saint Josaphat courage to lay down his life for his people.") Then there was a post by me, in which I quoted from byzcath

Irish Melkite said:
We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.
This disappeared not too long after, and this was posted:

Amiciel said:
It may also be helpful to re-post here some of our earlier messages on the Group's Wall when we started the Group.  They shed further light on the purpose of our Group.  Here they are:

November 2, 2010 - "In our Journey, the Eucharist will be our springboard.  It is not our primary goal to engage in a purely intellectual, systematic exercise to accumulate knowledge.  Rather, our hope is that we become better acquainted with Our Lord, appreciate better what He has done for us, and end up with a better understanding of His unique purpose for each of us."

Novembe 24, 2010 - ".... through prayerful conversations, our Group hopes to obtain better knowledge of, and love for, our Lord Jesus, truly present in the Blessed Sacrament ...".
---

Thus, messages leaning towards speculative arguments, discussions or debates (which may be helpful) are best posted in other groups created specifically for this purpose.  Thank you and may the Lord bless us all!
which I take to mean that pro-Josaphat posts are allowed there but anti-Josaphat posts aren't.
 

elijahmaria

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Schultz said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
Peter J said:
podkarpatska said:
This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.
I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  ;)
No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.
One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.  

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary
Or perhaps not all Orthodox are hiding under the beds to slaughter the poor Catholics in the dead of night.
My dear, I don't think that is at all the issue in this particular discussion.

I think it is quite the other way around.

Question is why do the myths persist?

Mary
 

elijahmaria

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Peter J said:
Irish Melkite said:
We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.
If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...If I knew these things then I would not allow that comment to stand unanswered on any Forum of my own keeping.

I would not however make it disappear.  I have never complimented CAF for their native genius.

M.
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
Peter J said:
Irish Melkite said:
We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.
If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him
anyone NOT in the custody of the Polish king?
 

J Michael

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NicholasMyra said:
biro said:
For what it's worth, St. Constantine had his brother killed
Wasn't he killed under Roman Law while Constantine was Emperor, versus Constantine having him killed?
Does that somehow make him less killed  ;D?  Or Constantine less responsible?  Didn't he also have his wife and eldest son killed?  Seems I read something somewhere about that, but I'm not sure.
 

PJ

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elijahmaria said:
Peter J said:
Irish Melkite said:
We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.
If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...If I knew these things then I would not allow that comment to stand unanswered on any Forum of my own keeping.

I would not however make it disappear.  I have never complimented CAF for their native genius.

M.
They did allow the statement "His fidelity to the Roman See and his desire for union between the Ukranian Church and Rome led to his murder at Vitebsk (in 1623).
 

podkarpatska

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Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

The 17th century was a fun time in the western world. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.
 

podkarpatska

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J Michael said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
Peter J said:
podkarpatska said:
This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.
I guess we didn't think to check with you first.  ;)
No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.
One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox. 

The Catholics don't need to worry.  We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary
Perhaps I've misinterpreted both of you, but I don't think podkarpatska's intent was to duck any uncomfortable realities.  Rather, it strikes me that he is attempting to keep the tone at least civil, even if we think each other incorrect about this, that, or the other.  The tone on this board, at least on this sub-forum, has a tendency to pretty rapidly degenerate into, as you say, calumny, unwarranted and childish sarcasm, and outright nastiness, all of which is totally unnecessary, even if we disagree with each other.
Thank you. I tend to take much of hagiography with, shall we say, a 'grain of salt' - especially so in the case of 'controversial' saints - be they of the Church undivided and of the post schism saints of BOTH the east and the west. This is particularly so in the case of saints of the modern era in the western church as the whole approach to sanctification used by the west strikes my eastern mind as - well, bizarre.

The recent piece on 60 Minutes this winter about the canon lawyer in Rome who specializes in taking on these cases - with a retainer of course - really caught me off guard. Sorry my Catholic friends, but just because I try to be even minded and try to find common ground and calmer waters doesn't mean I buy your polemics or apologetics. (I have no use for polemics in any subject matter 99.9% of my time anyway, but that's a different story altogether.)

And as to St. Josaphat being murdered on account of his fervent desire for union, I suppose he was. After all there were others who had a fervent desire that union not occur on the terms he offered. Not all of those were religiously minded Orthodox believers- shocking revelation here - but there were secular princes etc.... who manipulated the situation on the ground for their own nefarious purposes.

 

J Michael

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podkarpatska said:
Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

[size=10pt]The 17th century was a fun time in the western world[/size]. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.
Not nearly as much "fun" as the 20th century.  Not even close!
 

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podkarpatska said:
Not all of those were religiously minded Orthodox believers- shocking revelation here - but there were secular princes etc.... who manipulated the situation on the ground for their own nefarious purposes.
Name 3.

Peter J said:
They did allow the statement "His fidelity to the Roman See and his desire for union between the Ukranian Church and Rome led to his murder at Vitebsk (in 1623).
No. He was killed because he perseccuted the Orthodox.
 

PJ

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podkarpatska said:
The 17th century was a fun time in the western world. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.
I think you're trying to hard. It shouldn't take much to get people on this forum to hate the West.
 

ialmisry

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podkarpatska said:
Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.
I never heard of him the 16 years I was in the OCA that I recall.  I first remember him from a Latin posting praise of him on the Eastern Christian Forum of CAF.  IIRC it was another Latin who posted the letter of the PL Chancellor complaining to Josaphat on his conduct (digging up graves, beheadings, etc...) as the first rebuttal.
 

PJ

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ialmisry said:
podkarpatska said:
Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.
I never heard of him the 16 years I was in the OCA that I recall.  I first remember him from a Latin posting praise of him on the Eastern Christian Forum of CAF. 
To be fair, presumably it's a lot harder for ECs not to have him on their "radar" since Pope John Paul II established the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma, in 1983.
 
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