Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

J Michael

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ialmisry said:
Papist said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.
Papist said, "USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."

I asked of Shanghaiski, "Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

And the answer is.........?
 

biro

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Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???

 

Shanghaiski

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J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
 

Shanghaiski

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biro said:
Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???

LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.
 

ialmisry

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biro said:
Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???
so you agree with Stalin on how many divisions the pope in the Vatican has.
 

ialmisry

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J Michael said:
ialmisry said:
Papist said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.
Papist said, "USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."

I asked of Shanghaiski, "Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

And the answer is.........?
...yes, and it doesn't include submission to the dictates of a foreign bishop.
 

J Michael

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Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?

 

J Michael

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ialmisry said:
J Michael said:
ialmisry said:
Papist said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.
Papist said, "USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."

I asked of Shanghaiski, "Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

And the answer is.........?
[size=10pt]...yes, [/size]and it doesn't include submission to the dictates of a foreign bishop.
Thank you!!  See, that wasn't so painful now, was it  ;D :laugh:?
 

biro

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All bishops are foreign to someone, somewhere. Unless we all live in the same country.
 

Shanghaiski

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J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
 

J Michael

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Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
 

Shanghaiski

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J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
No. That doesn't help at all.
 

J Michael

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Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
No. That doesn't help at all.
Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 
 

Shanghaiski

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J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
No. That doesn't help at all.
Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 
I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
 

biro

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Shanghaiski said:
biro said:
Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???

LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.
Hundreds of years ago.

I've yet to meet an Orthodox who didn't think the entire world was still stuck in the Middle Ages.
 

elijahmaria

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biro said:
Shanghaiski said:
biro said:
Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???

LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.
Hundreds of years ago.

I've yet to meet an Orthodox who didn't think the entire world was still stuck in the Middle Ages.
Never forgive, never forget, never apologize, never let anyone know you've changed....

I get disgusted till I remember they do worse to one another.

M.
 

elijahmaria

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Shanghaiski said:
I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
We could get too far into politics with this question if we go into too much detail.  There was a time indeed where the Catholic Church did see the Christian material world as secondary to the heart of the Christian spiritual world, and subject to the moral laws of the Church...and that got messy.

But even today the Vatican has a role to play in international affairs.  We'd have more to say had our bishops not been so wishy-washy on one hand and just damned venal on the other...nonetheless the Vatican still has influence in the world.

Quite frankly I think that is a good thing...better thing if we put our moral capital where our moral mouth is...
 

ialmisry

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biro said:
Shanghaiski said:
biro said:
Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???

LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.
Hundreds of years ago.

I've yet to meet an Orthodox who didn't think the entire world was still stuck in the Middle Ages.
Your Latin patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch, established in the Middle Ages, were still around at Vatican II, when you evidently think your ecclesiastical community's history begins.

Look a few years back, rather than centuries:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?m=201012
29 December 2010 | 10:21 | Source: Tanjug ZAGREB — A memorial service was held at the Basilica of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in Zagreb on Tuesday evening for Ante Pavelić.

The service also mentioned Jure Francetić, commander of the Ustasha Crna Legija (Black Legion).

The service was held by priests Vjekoslav Lasić and Stanislav Kos, who in referred to Pavelić as a respectable man who made sacrifices for all of Croatia.

Lasić, famous for his pro-Ustasha attitude and Pavelić-inspired sermons, called on the attendees to pray not only for Pavelić but also for Francetić, who, according to him, gave his life for Croatia.

Regardless of public criticism, Lasić has never been penalized by the Catholic Church nor by the state of Croatia, whose constitution emphasizes anti-fascist ideology.

Pavelić was at the helm of the WW2 puppet-Nazi Independent State of Croatia (NDH), whose Ustasha regime operated death camps where Serbs, Jews and Roma were imprisoned and murdered, including sites of mass slaughter such as the Jasenovac concentration camp.
Here is Pavelic a few decades, not centuries, earlier:

He's on the left. On the right is this guy

in the shrine. Who is that kneeling before him on the left?


The date on that is 1990.

This was the Orthodox Cathedral of Warsaw.

The Bolsheviks didn't do that.  Nor the Nazis.  The Polish government which had signed its concordat with the Vatican did that.  Less than a hundred years ago, it looked like this:

Not even a hundred years ago, let alone hundreds.  The matushka of my old Church used to tell us how the Polish police (she grew up in interwar Poland) would drag the priests out from the altars on Pascha to make them dance with bears in full vestments.  She passed away (memory eternal!) around 1990.  Not hundreds of years old.

Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  No thank you.  Once was a enough.
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
Shanghaiski said:
I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
We could get too far into politics with this question if we go into too much detail.  There was a time indeed where the Catholic Church did see the Christian material world as secondary to the heart of the Christian spiritual world, and subject to the moral laws of the Church...and that got messy.

But even today the Vatican has a role to play in international affairs.  We'd have more to say had our bishops not been so wishy-washy on one hand and just damned venal on the other...nonetheless the Vatican still has influence in the world.

Quite frankly I think that is a good thing...better thing if we put our moral capital where our moral mouth is...
 

J Michael

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Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
No. That doesn't help at all.
Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 
I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
Okay, since you say you weren't playing a game, I'll take you at your word.  But let me re-word the question to hopefully avoid confusion and the need for potentially confusing and digressing "specifics".

Here it is:
Does your Church through your bishop or synod teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives?

Hope that works better  ;).

 

ialmisry

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J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
No. That doesn't help at all.
Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 
I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
Okay, since you say you weren't playing a game, I'll take you at your word.  But let me re-word the question to hopefully avoid confusion and the need for potentially confusing and digressing "specifics".

Here it is:
Does your Church through your bishop or synod teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives?

Hope that works better  ;).
so you are admiting they you hold that Unam Sanctam is ex cathedra, and therefore "declare, proclaim, define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
 

J Michael

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ialmisry said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
No. That doesn't help at all.
Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 
I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
Okay, since you say you weren't playing a game, I'll take you at your word.  But let me re-word the question to hopefully avoid confusion and the need for potentially confusing and digressing "specifics".

Here it is:
Does your Church through your bishop or synod teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives?

Hope that works better  ;).
so you are admiting they you hold that Unam Sanctam is ex cathedra, and therefore "declare, proclaim, define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Who said anything about that?  From my recollection, it was me asking a question.
 

elijahmaria

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ialmisry said:
Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  No thank you.  Once was a enough.
All you've learned from history is to patch it together to suit yourself.

As I said the modern motto of your ilk al Misry: never forgive, never forget, never apologize and if it's your guys that do it, excuse them or shove them in the closet...quick!!
 

ialmisry

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J Michael said:
ialmisry said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
???  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?
No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
No. That doesn't help at all.
Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 
I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
Okay, since you say you weren't playing a game, I'll take you at your word.  But let me re-word the question to hopefully avoid confusion and the need for potentially confusing and digressing "specifics".

Here it is:
Does your Church through your bishop or synod teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives?

Hope that works better  ;).
so you are admiting they you hold that Unam Sanctam is ex cathedra, and therefore "declare, proclaim, define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Who said anything about that?  From my recollection, it was me asking a question.
and you were answered.  Many times over, and fully.  Fuller than you wanted it seems.  Do not ask questions you do not want answered.
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  No thank you.  Once was a enough.
All you've learned from history is to patch it together to suit yourself.
Learned that when the guilty say "I never did that" or "that was a long time ago, get over it!" they mean "give me the opportunity, and I will do it again."

elijahmaria said:
As I said the modern motto of your ilk al Misry: never forgive, never forget, never apologize and if it's your guys that do it, excuse them or shove them in the closet...quick!!
when and if your ilk repent of and give up their antics, we can talk about the issue of forgiveness.  Until then, we are keeping the powder dry.
 

PJ

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Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
J Michael said:
Shanghaiski said:
Papist said:
USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
In the fine tradition of supremacy.
Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
That's ... odd, I suppose would be the word.

From reading your previous couple posts (and reading between the lines) I thought you weren't answering b/c you thought J Michael already knew the answer to his question. I guess that goes to show that I should never think I understand this forum. :)  :-[
 

PJ

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Shanghaiski said:
biro said:
Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???

LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades?
Trick question! There was no tiny city state back then. :wag finger:
 

podkarpatska

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I have thought about what I am about to post, I put off saying it for some time but I am going to say it anyway.

Think about what is going on here. This has gone beyond a disagreement about one or another historical act or whether this act or that act was 'representative' of the other's faith.

I have tried to state my disagreements over the years with Roman teaching in a reasoned, dispassionate manner, without resorting to the sort of childish nonsense that this thread has devolved into - and frankly, which every thread on this sub-forum always seems to degenerate into. While not always successful, I do try to disagree without resorting to be disagreeable, but for many of you online that simple task -which I am sure your mother told you to do as children - seems impossible.

If this were a courtroom, no judge would tolerate behavior by counsel which would go on and on like here.

I know I am 'lecturing' and that many of you will no doubt object. Too bad, the behavior here is un-Christian, preposterous, indefensible and does a disservice to the Saints that each of you purport to honor in your own way. You are playing the devil's hand - not that of God. No wonder the Theotokas' tears are manifest in so many churches in our time.

 

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Peter J said:
Shanghaiski said:
biro said:
Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

???

LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades?
Trick question! There was no tiny city state back then. :wag finger:
Yes, it was more Papal and less city at one point in time, I should suppose. Modern popes are really missing out on getting to wield that sword of temporal power these days. I hear that it's still kept somewhere hidden in the Vatican. :laugh:
 

mike

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ialmisry said:
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
Russian involvement in the religious situation in Rzeczpospolita started with Brest.
 

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podkarpatska said:
I have thought about what I am about to post, I put off saying it for some time but I am going to say it anyway.

Think about what is going on here. This has gone beyond a disagreement about one or another historical act or whether this act or that act was 'representative' of the other's faith.

I have tried to state my disagreements over the years with Roman teaching in a reasoned, dispassionate manner, without resorting to the sort of childish nonsense that this thread has devolved into - and frankly, which every thread on this sub-forum always seems to degenerate into. While not always successful, I do try to disagree without resorting to be disagreeable, but for many of you online that simple task -which I am sure your mother told you to do as children - seems impossible.

If this were a courtroom, no judge would tolerate behavior by counsel which would go on and on like here.

I know I am 'lecturing' and that many of you will no doubt object. Too bad, the behavior here is un-Christian, preposterous, indefensible and does a disservice to the Saints that each of you purport to honor in your own way. You are playing the devil's hand - not that of God. No wonder the Theotokas' tears are manifest in so many churches in our time.
Back atcha!!  Talk to al Mis[e]ry. 

There are no grounds for communion here.

 

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
I have thought about what I am about to post, I put off saying it for some time but I am going to say it anyway.

Think about what is going on here. This has gone beyond a disagreement about one or another historical act or whether this act or that act was 'representative' of the other's faith.

I have tried to state my disagreements over the years with Roman teaching in a reasoned, dispassionate manner, without resorting to the sort of childish nonsense that this thread has devolved into - and frankly, which every thread on this sub-forum always seems to degenerate into. While not always successful, I do try to disagree without resorting to be disagreeable, but for many of you online that simple task -which I am sure your mother told you to do as children - seems impossible.

If this were a courtroom, no judge would tolerate behavior by counsel which would go on and on like here.

I know I am 'lecturing' and that many of you will no doubt object. Too bad, the behavior here is un-Christian, preposterous, indefensible and does a disservice to the Saints that each of you purport to honor in your own way. You are playing the devil's hand - not that of God. No wonder the Theotokas' tears are manifest in so many churches in our time.
Back atcha!!  Talk to al Mis[e]ry. 

There are no grounds for communion here.
Could you elaborate on that last part?
 

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
I have thought about what I am about to post, I put off saying it for some time but I am going to say it anyway.

Think about what is going on here. This has gone beyond a disagreement about one or another historical act or whether this act or that act was 'representative' of the other's faith.

I have tried to state my disagreements over the years with Roman teaching in a reasoned, dispassionate manner, without resorting to the sort of childish nonsense that this thread has devolved into - and frankly, which every thread on this sub-forum always seems to degenerate into. While not always successful, I do try to disagree without resorting to be disagreeable, but for many of you online that simple task -which I am sure your mother told you to do as children - seems impossible.

If this were a courtroom, no judge would tolerate behavior by counsel which would go on and on like here.

I know I am 'lecturing' and that many of you will no doubt object. Too bad, the behavior here is un-Christian, preposterous, indefensible and does a disservice to the Saints that each of you purport to honor in your own way. You are playing the devil's hand - not that of God. No wonder the Theotokas' tears are manifest in so many churches in our time.
Back atcha!!  Talk to al Mis[e]ry.  

There are no grounds for communion here.
I wanted to share something that influenced me greatly as a child.

I remember when I was a boy in the early 1960's, some twenty-five years or so after the bitter, internecine struggles within the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church which led to the schism resulting in today's BCC and the ACROD, hearing a sermon during what we used to call a Lenten Mission, when a visiting elderly priest from a neighboring parish of our Diocese would come, help with confessions and preach.

Exactly what he said is probably lost to the mists of time, but I recall the heart and soul of his sermon and the passion with which he delivered it. He was referring to the residual bitterness, jealousy and name-calling which at that time had formed a part of neighborhood life as the families and friends - many separated by the choices they made during those times - still carried the scars of fear, anger and to some - even hatred from that division.

There had recently been something of a 'scandal' if you would, in the neighborhood as two former friends 'got into it' coming home from work at the camera plant down the road after 'lifting' more than a few 'boilermakers.' They caused quite a commotion, swearing, calling each other names like 'tselibat', 'katzap', 'rimsky' or 'shismatic' and so on. Finally they had to be taken home by the paddy wagon to dry out and calm down. It was the talk of the old neighborhood - one in which everyone was a Slav and was either affiliated with the Metropolia parish, the BCC parish, the ACROD parish, the UOC parish, the UGCC parish, the Slovak Lutheran Church or the Slovak Catholic Church and for the most part, related by blood to probably every other person living there.

This continuing bickering greatly troubled my dad, then a middle-aged priest as it distracted from the real business of the Church. He confided his concerns with the old priest - a man who was ordained Greek Catholic in Europe many years prior, but who joined the Orthodox Church as a young man during the struggles. The old man agreed to speak of these things that evening at the Lenten service.

He reflected on how he, as an old man, looked back at those times  a quarter century beforehand, and he was certain that he made the proper choice in life by joining the Orthodox.

Yet he couldn't help but wonder, especially during the penitential season of the Great Lent as we sat in our respective neighboring churches, sang the same hymns contemplating the sorrow of the Mother of God and the agony of Christ's crucifixion,and prepared in the same traditional way for the coming Great Day - the Pascha - how the Mother of God viewed our earthly behavior and our continued rancor and ill-will.

He turned to Luke, 6:42, chuckling as he noted that Scripture wasn't just something our Protestant friends memorized. He read Our Lord's words of admonition in a stern, but kindly voice: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you don't see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye." "

In order for us to get past the hurt of the past, he went on to say, we had to look inwardly - into the darkness of our own inner fears and cleanse our own self of our own bitterness and acknowledge that while we could be certain we made the right choice to be where we found ourselves that we had to recognize that we, the Orthodox, were not without sin, that we had not purged the evils of jealousy, fear and anger from our hearts and that our brothers and sisters next door were trying their best to do what we were doing - seeking salvation and God's eternal reward.

It hit home a few years later when my father's 'Teta' passed away - his father's sister, who along with her other sisters remained Greek Catholic in 1937 when my grandfather took his family and founded the ACROD parish in their hometown. For over thirty years we didn't speak with 'that' side of the family. 'They' missed my parent's wedding, the birth of their children and the death of one in a tragic accident - despite this, my grandfather refused to go to the funeral home or the funeral. My dad always thought that some year things would be patched up, that there would be another Christmas or Easter to get together and forgive each other for any harm or hurt our mutual behaviors may have caused each other. But, the sad reality was that was not to be.

Over the years I developed a 'zero' tolerance for extreme behavior which is retained only because that's that way it was.

Frankly, I am not directing my comments here to the posters who have in the past and no doubt in the future will continue their eternal game of 'gotcha'. I confess that when I get angered or upset, I too, readily have joined in the fray.

However, I really hope that others of you, who may casually stumble across this thread or ones like it, might realize that most of us - be we Orthodox or be we Catholic - have no illusions about life, about reality and about divisions and that the comments which frequently populate the internet are not really a window into our respective souls, our respective Churches or the God, in whose service we share.

In the end, I still think that most of know that at the very essence of any problem like that confronting the Church and her divided state - any solution has to begin within one's own heart and soul.

dd

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!


 

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podkarpatska said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
I have thought about what I am about to post, I put off saying it for some time but I am going to say it anyway.

Think about what is going on here. This has gone beyond a disagreement about one or another historical act or whether this act or that act was 'representative' of the other's faith.

I have tried to state my disagreements over the years with Roman teaching in a reasoned, dispassionate manner, without resorting to the sort of childish nonsense that this thread has devolved into - and frankly, which every thread on this sub-forum always seems to degenerate into. While not always successful, I do try to disagree without resorting to be disagreeable, but for many of you online that simple task -which I am sure your mother told you to do as children - seems impossible.

If this were a courtroom, no judge would tolerate behavior by counsel which would go on and on like here.

I know I am 'lecturing' and that many of you will no doubt object. Too bad, the behavior here is un-Christian, preposterous, indefensible and does a disservice to the Saints that each of you purport to honor in your own way. You are playing the devil's hand - not that of God. No wonder the Theotokas' tears are manifest in so many churches in our time.
Back atcha!!  Talk to al Mis[e]ry.  

There are no grounds for communion here.
I wanted to share something that influenced me greatly as a child.

I remember when I was a boy in the early 1960's, some twenty-five years or so after the bitter, internecine struggles within the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church which led to the schism resulting in today's BCC and the ACROD, hearing a sermon during what we used to call a Lenten Mission, when a visiting elderly priest from a neighboring parish of our Diocese would come, help with confessions and preach.

Exactly what he said is probably lost to the mists of time, but I recall the heart and soul of his sermon and the passion with which he delivered it. He was referring to the residual bitterness, jealousy and name-calling which at that time had formed a part of neighborhood life as the families and friends - many separated by the choices they made during those times - still carried the scars of fear, anger and to some - even hatred from that division.

There had recently been something of a 'scandal' if you would, in the neighborhood as two former friends 'got into it' coming home from work at the camera plant down the road after 'lifting' more than a few 'boilermakers.' They caused quite a commotion, swearing, calling each other names like 'tselibat', 'katzap', 'rimsky' or 'shismatic' and so on. Finally they had to be taken home by the paddy wagon to dry out and calm down. It was the talk of the old neighborhood - one in which everyone was a Slav and was either affiliated with the Metropolia parish, the BCC parish, the ACROD parish, the UOC parish, the UGCC parish, the Slovak Lutheran Church or the Slovak Catholic Church and for the most part, related by blood to probably every other person living there.

This continuing bickering greatly troubled my dad, then a middle-aged priest as it distracted from the real business of the Church. He confided his concerns with the old priest - a man who was ordained Greek Catholic in Europe many years prior, but who joined the Orthodox Church as a young man during the struggles. The old man agreed to speak of these things that evening at the Lenten service.

He reflected on how he, as an old man, looked back at those times  a quarter century beforehand, and he was certain that he made the proper choice in life by joining the Orthodox.

Yet he couldn't help but wonder, especially during the penitential season of the Great Lent as we sat in our respective neighboring churches, sang the same hymns contemplating the sorrow of the Mother of God and the agony of Christ's crucifixion,and prepared in the same traditional way for the coming Great Day - the Pascha - how the Mother of God viewed our earthly behavior and our continued rancor and ill-will.

He turned to Luke, 6:42, chuckling as he noted that Scripture wasn't just something our Protestant friends memorized. He read Our Lord's words of admonition in a stern, but kindly voice: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you don't see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye." "

In order for us to get past the hurt of the past, he went on to say, we had to look inwardly - into the darkness of our own inner fears and cleanse our own self of our own bitterness and acknowledge that while we could be certain we made the right choice to be where we found ourselves that we had to recognize that we, the Orthodox, were not without sin, that we had not purged the evils of jealousy, fear and anger from our hearts and that our brothers and sisters next door were trying their best to do what we were doing - seeking salvation and God's eternal reward.

It hit home a few years later when my father's 'Teta' passed away - his father's sister, who along with her other sisters remained Greek Catholic in 1937 when my grandfather took his family and founded the ACROD parish in their hometown. For over thirty years we didn't speak with 'that' side of the family. 'They' missed my parent's wedding, the birth of their children and the death of one in a tragic accident - despite this, my grandfather refused to go to the funeral home or the funeral. My dad always thought that some year things would be patched up, that there would be another Christmas or Easter to get together and forgive each other for any harm or hurt our mutual behaviors may have caused each other. But, the sad reality was that was not to be.

Over the years I developed a 'zero' tolerance for extreme behavior which is retained only because that's that way it was.

Frankly, I am not directing my comments here to the posters who have in the past and no doubt in the future will continue their eternal game of 'gotcha'. I confess that when I get angered or upset, I too, readily have joined in the fray.

However, I really hope that others of you, who may casually stumble across this thread or ones like it, might realize that most of us - be we Orthodox or be we Catholic - have no illusions about life, about reality and about divisions and that the comments which frequently populate the internet are not really a window into our respective souls, our respective Churches or the God, in whose service we share.

In the end, I still think that most of know that at the very essence of any problem like that confronting the Church and her divided state - any solution has to begin within one's own heart and soul.

dd

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!
[size=10pt][size=10pt]Amen![/size][/size]
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
I wanted to share something that influenced me greatly as a child.

I remember when I was a boy in the early 1960's, some twenty-five years or so after the bitter, internecine struggles within the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church which led to the schism resulting in today's BCC and the ACROD, hearing a sermon during what we used to call a Lenten Mission, when a visiting elderly priest from a neighboring parish of our Diocese would come, help with confessions and preach.

Exactly what he said is probably lost to the mists of time, but I recall the heart and soul of his sermon and the passion with which he delivered it. He was referring to the residual bitterness, jealousy and name-calling which at that time had formed a part of neighborhood life as the families and friends - many separated by the choices they made during those times - still carried the scars of fear, anger and to some - even hatred from that division.

There had recently been something of a 'scandal' if you would, in the neighborhood as two former friends 'got into it' coming home from work at the camera plant down the road after 'lifting' more than a few 'boilermakers.' They caused quite a commotion, swearing, calling each other names like 'tselibat', 'katzap', 'rimsky' or 'shismatic' and so on. Finally they had to be taken home by the paddy wagon to dry out and calm down. It was the talk of the old neighborhood - one in which everyone was a Slav and was either affiliated with the Metropolia parish, the BCC parish, the ACROD parish, the UOC parish, the UGCC parish, the Slovak Lutheran Church or the Slovak Catholic Church and for the most part, related by blood to probably every other person living there.

This continuing bickering greatly troubled my dad, then a middle-aged priest as it distracted from the real business of the Church. He confided his concerns with the old priest - a man who was ordained Greek Catholic in Europe many years prior, but who joined the Orthodox Church as a young man during the struggles. The old man agreed to speak of these things that evening at the Lenten service.

He reflected on how he, as an old man, looked back at those times  a quarter century beforehand, and he was certain that he made the proper choice in life by joining the Orthodox.

Yet he couldn't help but wonder, especially during the penitential season of the Great Lent as we sat in our respective neighboring churches, sang the same hymns contemplating the sorrow of the Mother of God and the agony of Christ's crucifixion,and prepared in the same traditional way for the coming Great Day - the Pascha - how the Mother of God viewed our earthly behavior and our continued rancor and ill-will.

He turned to Luke, 6:42, chuckling as he noted that Scripture wasn't just something our Protestant friends memorized. He read Our Lord's words of admonition in a stern, but kindly voice: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you don't see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye." "

In order for us to get past the hurt of the past, he went on to say, we had to look inwardly - into the darkness of our own inner fears and cleanse our own self of our own bitterness and acknowledge that while we could be certain we made the right choice to be where we found ourselves that we had to recognize that we, the Orthodox, were not without sin, that we had not purged the evils of jealousy, fear and anger from our hearts and that our brothers and sisters next door were trying their best to do what we were doing - seeking salvation and God's eternal reward.

It hit home a few years later when my father's 'Teta' passed away - his father's sister, who along with her other sisters remained Greek Catholic in 1937 when my grandfather took his family and founded the ACROD parish in their hometown. For over thirty years we didn't speak with 'that' side of the family. 'They' missed my parent's wedding, the birth of their children and the death of one in a tragic accident - despite this, my grandfather refused to go to the funeral home or the funeral. My dad always thought that some year things would be patched up, that there would be another Christmas or Easter to get together and forgive each other for any harm or hurt our mutual behaviors may have caused each other. But, the sad reality was that was not to be.

Over the years I developed a 'zero' tolerance for extreme behavior which is retained only because that's that way it was.

Frankly, I am not directing my comments here to the posters who have in the past and no doubt in the future will continue their eternal game of 'gotcha'. I confess that when I get angered or upset, I too, readily have joined in the fray.

However, I really hope that others of you, who may casually stumble across this thread or ones like it, might realize that most of us - be we Orthodox or be we Catholic - have no illusions about life, about reality and about divisions and that the comments which frequently populate the internet are not really a window into our respective souls, our respective Churches or the God, in whose service we share.

In the end, I still think that most of know that at the very essence of any problem like that confronting the Church and her divided state - any solution has to begin within one's own heart and soul.

dd

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!
Common ground must be accepted as common...This is a moving testimony, and I admit to being moved by it, but it is not the way to renewed communion.

You still need to spend time talking to people like al Misry, where rejection is cold and unforgiving and constant.  I do not think all of Orthodox believers are as rigid.  Thank God.
 

J Michael

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
I wanted to share something that influenced me greatly as a child.

I remember when I was a boy in the early 1960's, some twenty-five years or so after the bitter, internecine struggles within the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church which led to the schism resulting in today's BCC and the ACROD, hearing a sermon during what we used to call a Lenten Mission, when a visiting elderly priest from a neighboring parish of our Diocese would come, help with confessions and preach.

Exactly what he said is probably lost to the mists of time, but I recall the heart and soul of his sermon and the passion with which he delivered it. He was referring to the residual bitterness, jealousy and name-calling which at that time had formed a part of neighborhood life as the families and friends - many separated by the choices they made during those times - still carried the scars of fear, anger and to some - even hatred from that division.

There had recently been something of a 'scandal' if you would, in the neighborhood as two former friends 'got into it' coming home from work at the camera plant down the road after 'lifting' more than a few 'boilermakers.' They caused quite a commotion, swearing, calling each other names like 'tselibat', 'katzap', 'rimsky' or 'shismatic' and so on. Finally they had to be taken home by the paddy wagon to dry out and calm down. It was the talk of the old neighborhood - one in which everyone was a Slav and was either affiliated with the Metropolia parish, the BCC parish, the ACROD parish, the UOC parish, the UGCC parish, the Slovak Lutheran Church or the Slovak Catholic Church and for the most part, related by blood to probably every other person living there.

This continuing bickering greatly troubled my dad, then a middle-aged priest as it distracted from the real business of the Church. He confided his concerns with the old priest - a man who was ordained Greek Catholic in Europe many years prior, but who joined the Orthodox Church as a young man during the struggles. The old man agreed to speak of these things that evening at the Lenten service.

He reflected on how he, as an old man, looked back at those times  a quarter century beforehand, and he was certain that he made the proper choice in life by joining the Orthodox.

Yet he couldn't help but wonder, especially during the penitential season of the Great Lent as we sat in our respective neighboring churches, sang the same hymns contemplating the sorrow of the Mother of God and the agony of Christ's crucifixion,and prepared in the same traditional way for the coming Great Day - the Pascha - how the Mother of God viewed our earthly behavior and our continued rancor and ill-will.

He turned to Luke, 6:42, chuckling as he noted that Scripture wasn't just something our Protestant friends memorized. He read Our Lord's words of admonition in a stern, but kindly voice: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you don't see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye." "

In order for us to get past the hurt of the past, he went on to say, we had to look inwardly - into the darkness of our own inner fears and cleanse our own self of our own bitterness and acknowledge that while we could be certain we made the right choice to be where we found ourselves that we had to recognize that we, the Orthodox, were not without sin, that we had not purged the evils of jealousy, fear and anger from our hearts and that our brothers and sisters next door were trying their best to do what we were doing - seeking salvation and God's eternal reward.

It hit home a few years later when my father's 'Teta' passed away - his father's sister, who along with her other sisters remained Greek Catholic in 1937 when my grandfather took his family and founded the ACROD parish in their hometown. For over thirty years we didn't speak with 'that' side of the family. 'They' missed my parent's wedding, the birth of their children and the death of one in a tragic accident - despite this, my grandfather refused to go to the funeral home or the funeral. My dad always thought that some year things would be patched up, that there would be another Christmas or Easter to get together and forgive each other for any harm or hurt our mutual behaviors may have caused each other. But, the sad reality was that was not to be.

Over the years I developed a 'zero' tolerance for extreme behavior which is retained only because that's that way it was.

Frankly, I am not directing my comments here to the posters who have in the past and no doubt in the future will continue their eternal game of 'gotcha'. I confess that when I get angered or upset, I too, readily have joined in the fray.

However, I really hope that others of you, who may casually stumble across this thread or ones like it, might realize that most of us - be we Orthodox or be we Catholic - have no illusions about life, about reality and about divisions and that the comments which frequently populate the internet are not really a window into our respective souls, our respective Churches or the God, in whose service we share.

In the end, I still think that most of know that at the very essence of any problem like that confronting the Church and her divided state - any solution has to begin within one's own heart and soul.

dd

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!
Common ground must be accepted as common...This is a moving testimony, and I admit to being moved by it, but it is not the way to renewed communion.

[size=10pt][size=10pt]You still need to spend time talking to people like al Misry, where rejection is cold and unforgiving and constant[/size][/size].  I do not think all of Orthodox believers are as rigid.  Thank God.
And pray for the softening of hardened hearts.
 

PJ

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elijahmaria said:
You still need to spend time talking to people like al Misry, where rejection is cold and unforgiving and constant.
This statement reminds me of certain dismissive "digs" that Orthodox posters have made about us Catholics, e.g. "Peter is completely wrong and typifies the usual Latin understanding of the Eastern Catholics". Perhaps we should be turning-the-other-cheek?
 

podkarpatska

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
I wanted to share something that influenced me greatly as a child.

I remember when I was a boy in the early 1960's, some twenty-five years or so after the bitter, internecine struggles within the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church which led to the schism resulting in today's BCC and the ACROD, hearing a sermon during what we used to call a Lenten Mission, when a visiting elderly priest from a neighboring parish of our Diocese would come, help with confessions and preach.

Exactly what he said is probably lost to the mists of time, but I recall the heart and soul of his sermon and the passion with which he delivered it. He was referring to the residual bitterness, jealousy and name-calling which at that time had formed a part of neighborhood life as the families and friends - many separated by the choices they made during those times - still carried the scars of fear, anger and to some - even hatred from that division.

There had recently been something of a 'scandal' if you would, in the neighborhood as two former friends 'got into it' coming home from work at the camera plant down the road after 'lifting' more than a few 'boilermakers.' They caused quite a commotion, swearing, calling each other names like 'tselibat', 'katzap', 'rimsky' or 'shismatic' and so on. Finally they had to be taken home by the paddy wagon to dry out and calm down. It was the talk of the old neighborhood - one in which everyone was a Slav and was either affiliated with the Metropolia parish, the BCC parish, the ACROD parish, the UOC parish, the UGCC parish, the Slovak Lutheran Church or the Slovak Catholic Church and for the most part, related by blood to probably every other person living there.

This continuing bickering greatly troubled my dad, then a middle-aged priest as it distracted from the real business of the Church. He confided his concerns with the old priest - a man who was ordained Greek Catholic in Europe many years prior, but who joined the Orthodox Church as a young man during the struggles. The old man agreed to speak of these things that evening at the Lenten service.

He reflected on how he, as an old man, looked back at those times  a quarter century beforehand, and he was certain that he made the proper choice in life by joining the Orthodox.

Yet he couldn't help but wonder, especially during the penitential season of the Great Lent as we sat in our respective neighboring churches, sang the same hymns contemplating the sorrow of the Mother of God and the agony of Christ's crucifixion,and prepared in the same traditional way for the coming Great Day - the Pascha - how the Mother of God viewed our earthly behavior and our continued rancor and ill-will.

He turned to Luke, 6:42, chuckling as he noted that Scripture wasn't just something our Protestant friends memorized. He read Our Lord's words of admonition in a stern, but kindly voice: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you don't see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye." "

In order for us to get past the hurt of the past, he went on to say, we had to look inwardly - into the darkness of our own inner fears and cleanse our own self of our own bitterness and acknowledge that while we could be certain we made the right choice to be where we found ourselves that we had to recognize that we, the Orthodox, were not without sin, that we had not purged the evils of jealousy, fear and anger from our hearts and that our brothers and sisters next door were trying their best to do what we were doing - seeking salvation and God's eternal reward.

It hit home a few years later when my father's 'Teta' passed away - his father's sister, who along with her other sisters remained Greek Catholic in 1937 when my grandfather took his family and founded the ACROD parish in their hometown. For over thirty years we didn't speak with 'that' side of the family. 'They' missed my parent's wedding, the birth of their children and the death of one in a tragic accident - despite this, my grandfather refused to go to the funeral home or the funeral. My dad always thought that some year things would be patched up, that there would be another Christmas or Easter to get together and forgive each other for any harm or hurt our mutual behaviors may have caused each other. But, the sad reality was that was not to be.

Over the years I developed a 'zero' tolerance for extreme behavior which is retained only because that's that way it was.

Frankly, I am not directing my comments here to the posters who have in the past and no doubt in the future will continue their eternal game of 'gotcha'. I confess that when I get angered or upset, I too, readily have joined in the fray.

However, I really hope that others of you, who may casually stumble across this thread or ones like it, might realize that most of us - be we Orthodox or be we Catholic - have no illusions about life, about reality and about divisions and that the comments which frequently populate the internet are not really a window into our respective souls, our respective Churches or the God, in whose service we share.

In the end, I still think that most of know that at the very essence of any problem like that confronting the Church and her divided state - any solution has to begin within one's own heart and soul.

dd

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!
Common ground must be accepted as common...This is a moving testimony, and I admit to being moved by it, but it is not the way to renewed communion.

You still need to spend time talking to people like al Misry, where rejection is cold and unforgiving and constant.  I do not think all of Orthodox believers are as rigid.  Thank God.
I disagree because the path to true union must begin with self awareness and self criticism.

If our churches and their leaders truly seek unity, it may only occur with the presence of the grace of the Holy Spirit.  As Scripture and the Fathers teach us, the way into one's heart and/or soul is for one to acknowledge one's own sinful nature for unless one does so, one may not challenge the sinfulness of another. (i.e. Let he who is without sin....) If one insists on pointing out the flaws of another without proper self-awareness, any such effort is bound to break down and fail.

St. Ephraim the Syrian said it best, as we pray during the Great Fast:

"O Lord and Master of my life,
Grant not unto me a spirit of idleness,
of discouragement,
of lust for power,
and of vain speaking.

But bestow upon me, Thy servant,
the spirit of chastity,
of meekness,
of patience,
and of love.

Yea, O Lord and King,
grant that I may perceive
my own transgressions,
and judge not my brother,
for blessed art Thou
unto ages of ages.
Amen."

I don't think it is productive to point fingers or single out one poster from another.  I have made it clear that I believe there are some issues where we can not reconcile our differences -at least at the internet level -  but we should at least try to tone down the rancor and judgment we express towards each other if we are ever to at least better understand each other and accept the fact that we do stand on some common ground - unlike the unbelievers, the apostates and the unfaithful.




 
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