Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

elijahmaria

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Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
Sorry my Catholic friends, but just because I try to be even minded and try to find common ground and calmer waters doesn't mean I buy your polemics or apologetics.
Why dwell on the obvious?  Only the truly blind would think otherwise.
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.
 

elijahmaria

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.
Maybe he can.  You would not accept it in any event, Maester WoolPuller...
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
The accusations against St. Maximilian Kolbe hold about as much credibility as those against Bishop Josaphat.  Mr. Kalina apparently thinks calumny is a sacred trust  ;)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/KOLANTI.htm
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
With respect to false accusations that stick on far longer than the facts should allow:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/claims-of-papal-help-for-nazi-war-criminals-verifiably-false/

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.
maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.
Maybe he can.  You would not accept it in any event, Maester WoolPuller...
I wouldn't be on the grand jury. Would they accept it?

Btw, you source disputed, not disproved.
 

PJ

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ialmisry said:
Yeah. Everybody knows American RC websites are best sources of non-biased information about Polish RC Saints.
Yul Brynner's Paradox: How can it be that everyone knows one thing if many people believe another?
 

mike

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elijahmaria said:
with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...
links?
 

J Michael

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Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...
[size=10pt][size=10pt]links?[/size][/size]
Yes, please!  And I'll take my eggs over-easy!  So kind of you to offer  ;D!  (Not that I'm particularly bothered, as I love sausage in most forms, but some here prefer theirs in patties.  Now, is that Polish sausage, i.e. kielbasa, or chorizo, or spicy Italian?  ;D ;D)

Sorry, but after our last little tiff about translation, I just couldn't help myself.  Hope you see the humor, such as it is!
 

podkarpatska

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I just wanted to add in connection with my comment about we Orthodox not having St. Josaphat on our radar (and Isa's confirmation of the same) I don't think that it is a coincidence that if one does a Google search of the Saint - under any variety of his names or spellings thereof - you simply will not find any Orthodox source material or discussion about him for pages and pages of links- unless, like here, it is started by non-Orthodox. There are pages and pages of Catholic sourced polemic and apologetics in his hagiography - much of which makes him almost sound like a cartoon character rather than a once living person.

I go back to my point about hagiography - while on one level it may be viewed as positive instructions for the faithful on a Christian life well lived (any number of purposes - charity, kindness, martyrdom etc....) one simply can not deny the propaganda value it may also possess in the struggle between competing ecclesiastical structures during the history of Christendom.

I think that many Catholics - both east and west - like the stories of St. Josaphat because they provide them a 'comfort' level, if you will - which justifies their position regarding claims of being 'Orthodox in union with the Pope.' To call upon his intercession during Rome's 'Week of Prayer for Christian Unity' is insulting to any Orthodox from the most open-minded to the most traditional -regardless of their underlying feelings about ecumenical contact with the Roman Church and unity in general.

As to the revival of the cult of St. Josaphat in the late 20th century - that has as much to do with the heavy handed treatment of Ukrainians and Ukrainian Greek Catholics at the hands of the Soviets and their unwitting allies in the Russian Church as it does with reality.

As for Greek Catholic witnesses and martyrs, for me the real histories of 20th century men, like Blessed Pavel and Blessed Teodor and their resistance to the liquidation of their Greek Catholic Churches post WW2 speak more vibrantly and with more power of truth than do dusty 17th century stories borrowed in many ways from the calumny of the of anti-Semites of east Europe and the myth building regarding saintly lives used to educate peasants by both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches of that era.

That's why I think this discussion is destructive and pointless. And I would add, while I don't expect anyone to 'check with me' before starting a post - be prepared for a response with which you may take issue.
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
I just wanted to add in connection with my comment about we Orthodox not having St. Josaphat on our radar (and Isa's confirmation of the same) I don't think that it is a coincidence that if one does a Google search of the Saint - under any variety of his names or spellings thereof - you simply will not find any Orthodox source material or discussion about him for pages and pages of links- unless, like here, it is started by non-Orthodox. There are pages and pages of Catholic sourced polemic and apologetics in his hagiography - much of which makes him almost sound like a cartoon character rather than a once living person.

I go back to my point about hagiography - while on one level it may be viewed as positive instructions for the faithful on a Christian life well lived (any number of purposes - charity, kindness, martyrdom etc....) one simply can not deny the propaganda value it may also possess in the struggle between competing ecclesiastical structures during the history of Christendom.

I think that many Catholics - both east and west - like the stories of St. Josaphat because they provide them a 'comfort' level, if you will - which justifies their position regarding claims of being 'Orthodox in union with the Pope.' To call upon his intercession during Rome's 'Week of Prayer for Christian Unity' is insulting to any Orthodox from the most open-minded to the most traditional -regardless of their underlying feelings about ecumenical contact with the Roman Church and unity in general.

As to the revival of the cult of St. Josaphat in the late 20th century - that has as much to do with the heavy handed treatment of Ukrainians and Ukrainian Greek Catholics at the hands of the Soviets and their unwitting allies in the Russian Church as it does with reality.

As for Greek Catholic witnesses and martyrs, for me the real histories of 20th century men, like Blessed Pavel and Blessed Teodor and their resistance to the liquidation of their Greek Catholic Churches post WW2 speak more vibrantly and with more power of truth than do dusty 17th century stories borrowed in many ways from the calumny of the of anti-Semites of east Europe and the myth building regarding saintly lives used to educate peasants by both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches of that era.

That's why I think this discussion is destructive and pointless. And I would add, while I don't expect anyone to 'check with me' before starting a post - be prepared for a response with which you may take issue.
I agree with much that is here, in particular, the penultimate paragraph.
 
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For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
 

podkarpatska

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griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.

 

ialmisry

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griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
Yes, we've dealt with them before.  They can't exist: the King of Poland and Lithuania said the Orthodox did not exist after 1596.  Kuntsevych died 12 November 1623 in the realm of Poland and Lithuania, where no Orthodox existed, as the Union of Brest tells us, after 1596.

"Persecut Saint Josaphat."  Besides the problem of their non-existence, according to the King's enforcement of the "Union of Brest," there the problem of these non-existent Orthodox having power in Vatican supporting Poland-Lithuania, in order to persecute him.

Who are these non-existent Orthodox Christians whose "sworn testimonies" are given.  Surely they had names, no?
 

ialmisry

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.
Silly podkarpatska!  Don't you know that the Vatican only tells us the truth?  That the Orthodox gave up their Faith freely and without any coercion on the parts of the Vaticans sons?  No force nor secular inducements were EVER used to bring the Orthodox "into Catholic unity"?  Surely the Latin Poles knew better than Ruthenian Byzantines when the former overruled the latter and pushed for Kuntsevych's canonization?  He's a saint: the Vatican says so.  The case is closed.

::)
 

elijahmaria

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ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.
Silly podkarpatska!  Don't you know that the Vatican only tells us the truth?  That the Orthodox gave up their Faith freely and without any coercion on the parts of the Vaticans sons?  No force nor secular inducements were EVER used to bring the Orthodox "into Catholic unity"?  Surely the Latin Poles knew better than Ruthenian Byzantines when the former overruled the latter and pushed for Kuntsevych's canonization?  He's a saint: the Vatican says so.  The case is closed.

::)
Haul out the slavering dogs!
 

PJ

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Hi all. I'm not sorry to see this thread going again -- and I'm particularly interested to see if anyone will disagree with the conditional statement that I quoted earlier from Phillip Rolfes,

Phillip Rolfes said:
If we follow the camp that believes St. Josaphat did not in fact kill Orthodox Christians or burn their Churches (nor was complicit with those who did so), then my original analogy still holds up.
-- but I would also like to say, just for the record, that I don't think PR and I have the same purpose in discussing this or the same attitude. I say this in light of what he said more recently:

Phillip Rolfes said:
The fact of the matter is that he is revered as a saint among Ukrainian Catholics. The rest of us just have to deal with it. :p
 

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
griego catolico said:
For those of you who read Ukrainian and would like to know what information was collected on Saint Josaphat, the Basilians of Poland  have published in book form the documents that were involved for his glorification. These documents were translated from Latin into Ukrainian. Here is the link in Ukrainian.

Also, I would like to recommend the book, Saint Jospahat Kuntsevych: Apostle of Church Unity by Fr. Demetrius E. Wysochansky, OSBM. It is the most comprehensive book on the life of Saint Josaphat in English. It's been out of print for many years, so your best bet is through an inter-library loan. The book contains excerpts from Saint Josaphat's letters, where he defends his innocence against accusations that he harmed Orthodox Christians.  Also there are the sworn testimonies given by Orthodox Christians who admitted to persecuting  Saint Josaphat, yet defended his innocence and holiness.
I have much respect and admiration for the Basilian fathers, for many years they were our neighbors at the old UGCC in Binghamton before they built a new facility and they were kind and humble men. One of them had gone to seminary with my uncle in Canada prior to my uncle's leaving the Greek Catholic Church to become the first married priest ordained by Bishop Orestes Chornock after his consecration in 1938.

However, any source material on this subject originating from them is not likely to be taken as more than polemic by most Orthodox. As one Orthodox with great empathy for my Greek Catholic brothers and sisters, I have to say that the use of St. Josaphat as an exemplar of Church unity does make all of us Orthodox 'run for the hills.' I just don't get it, no disrespect intended.
You live with the disdain toward Catholics,  and dis-information about Catholics on this board every day and YOU don't get it?...well...I get it. 

And sure...the documentation about St. Josaphat MUST be all lies.  We can rest assured that the saint ate the dogs that ate the Orthodox corpses that the saint dug up and fed to them, however.

M.
My comments hardly merited such sarcasm - especially from someone who professes to have much love and understanding of the eastern church. It is not unreasonable from an academic point of view to discount material prepared by a group with a 'stake' in the argument, particularly when the argument is one of such emotional power - and one which has been the source of such exaggeration and lies - from both sides historically.

You would have me accept at face value 'apologia' issued by authors with a stake in the game while dismissing polemics from the other side. Neither can stand the scrutiny of critical analysis.

If you are honestly telling the Orthodox posters here that the use of a Saint of the western Church as controversial as is St. Josaphat is to the eastern Church as the proper 'icon' , symbol for, and representative of 'church unity' than I can only conclude that your view of any future 'unity' entails one thing and one thing only - the east must accept terms from the west on the order of those proposed by Grant to Lee at Appomattox Court House - unconditional surrender. Not gonna happen. And I don't expect it to happen the other way either.  By the way, I also take what your Pope says at face value in these matters and I don't see his public statements on the matter (nor those of his late predecessor) saying any such thing as well.

Give this a break. You will not change any minds here on the subject matter of this thread. I accept the fact that Ukrainian Catholics revere him as a saint. The rest of Orthodoxy has to deal with that at some point in time. Saying that does not mean that I find their hagiography to be much more than propaganda to advance the justification for the schism within traditional Ukrainian Christianity and to advance the disputes between western Ukrainians, their more Russophile minded eastern brothers and with the Russians themselves.


 

PJ

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podkarpatska said:
If you are honestly telling the Orthodox posters here that the use of a Saint of the western Church as controversial as is St. Josaphat is to the eastern Church as the proper 'icon' , symbol for, and representative of 'church unity' than I can only conclude that your view of any future 'unity' entails one thing and one thing only - the east must accept terms from the west on the order of those proposed by Grant to Lee at Appomattox Court House - unconditional surrender.
Could you define "the western Church" and "the eastern Church"?
 
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