Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

podkarpatska

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Peter J said:
elijahmaria said:
You still need to spend time talking to people like al Misry, where rejection is cold and unforgiving and constant.
This statement reminds me of certain dismissive "digs" that Orthodox posters have made about us Catholics, e.g. "Peter is completely wrong and typifies the usual Latin understanding of the Eastern Catholics". Perhaps we should be turning-the-other-cheek?
It is true that this is easier said than done.

Indeed, all of us are human and all of us need to get past the occasions where, in the heat of making an argument or trying to prove a point, or out of frustration,  we may have overstated our point of view or miscatagorized the opinions of others. We all are charged by our faith and we must strive to not let past offenses, perceived or otherwise - color our judgment to the extent where it may no longer fairly be offered. Sometimes in life, our opinions of strangers may be colored by the actions of real persons with whom we have interacted and whose words or actions caused real pain. It happens to us all, I am afraid.
 

ialmisry

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J Michael said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
I wanted to share something that influenced me greatly as a child.

I remember when I was a boy in the early 1960's, some twenty-five years or so after the bitter, internecine struggles within the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church which led to the schism resulting in today's BCC and the ACROD, hearing a sermon during what we used to call a Lenten Mission, when a visiting elderly priest from a neighboring parish of our Diocese would come, help with confessions and preach.

Exactly what he said is probably lost to the mists of time, but I recall the heart and soul of his sermon and the passion with which he delivered it. He was referring to the residual bitterness, jealousy and name-calling which at that time had formed a part of neighborhood life as the families and friends - many separated by the choices they made during those times - still carried the scars of fear, anger and to some - even hatred from that division.

There had recently been something of a 'scandal' if you would, in the neighborhood as two former friends 'got into it' coming home from work at the camera plant down the road after 'lifting' more than a few 'boilermakers.' They caused quite a commotion, swearing, calling each other names like 'tselibat', 'katzap', 'rimsky' or 'shismatic' and so on. Finally they had to be taken home by the paddy wagon to dry out and calm down. It was the talk of the old neighborhood - one in which everyone was a Slav and was either affiliated with the Metropolia parish, the BCC parish, the ACROD parish, the UOC parish, the UGCC parish, the Slovak Lutheran Church or the Slovak Catholic Church and for the most part, related by blood to probably every other person living there.

This continuing bickering greatly troubled my dad, then a middle-aged priest as it distracted from the real business of the Church. He confided his concerns with the old priest - a man who was ordained Greek Catholic in Europe many years prior, but who joined the Orthodox Church as a young man during the struggles. The old man agreed to speak of these things that evening at the Lenten service.

He reflected on how he, as an old man, looked back at those times  a quarter century beforehand, and he was certain that he made the proper choice in life by joining the Orthodox.

Yet he couldn't help but wonder, especially during the penitential season of the Great Lent as we sat in our respective neighboring churches, sang the same hymns contemplating the sorrow of the Mother of God and the agony of Christ's crucifixion,and prepared in the same traditional way for the coming Great Day - the Pascha - how the Mother of God viewed our earthly behavior and our continued rancor and ill-will.

He turned to Luke, 6:42, chuckling as he noted that Scripture wasn't just something our Protestant friends memorized. He read Our Lord's words of admonition in a stern, but kindly voice: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you don't see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye." "

In order for us to get past the hurt of the past, he went on to say, we had to look inwardly - into the darkness of our own inner fears and cleanse our own self of our own bitterness and acknowledge that while we could be certain we made the right choice to be where we found ourselves that we had to recognize that we, the Orthodox, were not without sin, that we had not purged the evils of jealousy, fear and anger from our hearts and that our brothers and sisters next door were trying their best to do what we were doing - seeking salvation and God's eternal reward.

It hit home a few years later when my father's 'Teta' passed away - his father's sister, who along with her other sisters remained Greek Catholic in 1937 when my grandfather took his family and founded the ACROD parish in their hometown. For over thirty years we didn't speak with 'that' side of the family. 'They' missed my parent's wedding, the birth of their children and the death of one in a tragic accident - despite this, my grandfather refused to go to the funeral home or the funeral. My dad always thought that some year things would be patched up, that there would be another Christmas or Easter to get together and forgive each other for any harm or hurt our mutual behaviors may have caused each other. But, the sad reality was that was not to be.

Over the years I developed a 'zero' tolerance for extreme behavior which is retained only because that's that way it was.

Frankly, I am not directing my comments here to the posters who have in the past and no doubt in the future will continue their eternal game of 'gotcha'. I confess that when I get angered or upset, I too, readily have joined in the fray.

However, I really hope that others of you, who may casually stumble across this thread or ones like it, might realize that most of us - be we Orthodox or be we Catholic - have no illusions about life, about reality and about divisions and that the comments which frequently populate the internet are not really a window into our respective souls, our respective Churches or the God, in whose service we share.

In the end, I still think that most of know that at the very essence of any problem like that confronting the Church and her divided state - any solution has to begin within one's own heart and soul.

dd

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!
Common ground must be accepted as common...This is a moving testimony, and I admit to being moved by it, but it is not the way to renewed communion.

[size=10pt][size=10pt]You still need to spend time talking to people like al Misry, where rejection is cold and unforgiving and constant[/size][/size].  I do not think all of Orthodox believers are as rigid.  Thank God.
And pray for the softening of hardened hearts.
and the stiffening of spines.
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
I wanted to share something that influenced me greatly as a child.

I remember when I was a boy in the early 1960's, some twenty-five years or so after the bitter, internecine struggles within the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church which led to the schism resulting in today's BCC and the ACROD, hearing a sermon during what we used to call a Lenten Mission, when a visiting elderly priest from a neighboring parish of our Diocese would come, help with confessions and preach.

Exactly what he said is probably lost to the mists of time, but I recall the heart and soul of his sermon and the passion with which he delivered it. He was referring to the residual bitterness, jealousy and name-calling which at that time had formed a part of neighborhood life as the families and friends - many separated by the choices they made during those times - still carried the scars of fear, anger and to some - even hatred from that division.

There had recently been something of a 'scandal' if you would, in the neighborhood as two former friends 'got into it' coming home from work at the camera plant down the road after 'lifting' more than a few 'boilermakers.' They caused quite a commotion, swearing, calling each other names like 'tselibat', 'katzap', 'rimsky' or 'shismatic' and so on. Finally they had to be taken home by the paddy wagon to dry out and calm down. It was the talk of the old neighborhood - one in which everyone was a Slav and was either affiliated with the Metropolia parish, the BCC parish, the ACROD parish, the UOC parish, the UGCC parish, the Slovak Lutheran Church or the Slovak Catholic Church and for the most part, related by blood to probably every other person living there.

This continuing bickering greatly troubled my dad, then a middle-aged priest as it distracted from the real business of the Church. He confided his concerns with the old priest - a man who was ordained Greek Catholic in Europe many years prior, but who joined the Orthodox Church as a young man during the struggles. The old man agreed to speak of these things that evening at the Lenten service.

He reflected on how he, as an old man, looked back at those times  a quarter century beforehand, and he was certain that he made the proper choice in life by joining the Orthodox.

Yet he couldn't help but wonder, especially during the penitential season of the Great Lent as we sat in our respective neighboring churches, sang the same hymns contemplating the sorrow of the Mother of God and the agony of Christ's crucifixion,and prepared in the same traditional way for the coming Great Day - the Pascha - how the Mother of God viewed our earthly behavior and our continued rancor and ill-will.

He turned to Luke, 6:42, chuckling as he noted that Scripture wasn't just something our Protestant friends memorized. He read Our Lord's words of admonition in a stern, but kindly voice: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you don't see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you'll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye." "

In order for us to get past the hurt of the past, he went on to say, we had to look inwardly - into the darkness of our own inner fears and cleanse our own self of our own bitterness and acknowledge that while we could be certain we made the right choice to be where we found ourselves that we had to recognize that we, the Orthodox, were not without sin, that we had not purged the evils of jealousy, fear and anger from our hearts and that our brothers and sisters next door were trying their best to do what we were doing - seeking salvation and God's eternal reward.

It hit home a few years later when my father's 'Teta' passed away - his father's sister, who along with her other sisters remained Greek Catholic in 1937 when my grandfather took his family and founded the ACROD parish in their hometown. For over thirty years we didn't speak with 'that' side of the family. 'They' missed my parent's wedding, the birth of their children and the death of one in a tragic accident - despite this, my grandfather refused to go to the funeral home or the funeral. My dad always thought that some year things would be patched up, that there would be another Christmas or Easter to get together and forgive each other for any harm or hurt our mutual behaviors may have caused each other. But, the sad reality was that was not to be.

Over the years I developed a 'zero' tolerance for extreme behavior which is retained only because that's that way it was.

Frankly, I am not directing my comments here to the posters who have in the past and no doubt in the future will continue their eternal game of 'gotcha'. I confess that when I get angered or upset, I too, readily have joined in the fray.

However, I really hope that others of you, who may casually stumble across this thread or ones like it, might realize that most of us - be we Orthodox or be we Catholic - have no illusions about life, about reality and about divisions and that the comments which frequently populate the internet are not really a window into our respective souls, our respective Churches or the God, in whose service we share.

In the end, I still think that most of know that at the very essence of any problem like that confronting the Church and her divided state - any solution has to begin within one's own heart and soul.

dd

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!
Common ground must be accepted as common...This is a moving testimony, and I admit to being moved by it, but it is not the way to renewed communion.

You still need to spend time talking to people like al Misry, where rejection is cold and unforgiving and constant.  I do not think all of Orthodox believers are as rigid.  Thank God.
I disagree because the path to true union must begin with self awareness and self criticism.

If our churches and their leaders truly seek unity, it may only occur with the presence of the grace of the Holy Spirit.  As Scripture and the Fathers teach us, the way into one's heart and/or soul is for one to acknowledge one's own sinful nature for unless one does so, one may not challenge the sinfulness of another. (i.e. Let he who is without sin....) If one insists on pointing out the flaws of another without proper self-awareness, any such effort is bound to break down and fail.

St. Ephraim the Syrian said it best, as we pray during the Great Fast:

"O Lord and Master of my life,
Grant not unto me a spirit of idleness,
of discouragement,
of lust for power,
and of vain speaking.

But bestow upon me, Thy servant,
the spirit of chastity,
of meekness,
of patience,
and of love.

Yea, O Lord and King,
grant that I may perceive
my own transgressions,
and judge not my brother,
for blessed art Thou
unto ages of ages.
Amen."

I don't think it is productive to point fingers or single out one poster from another.  I have made it clear that I believe there are some issues where we can not reconcile our differences -at least at the internet level -  but we should at least try to tone down the rancor and judgment we express towards each other if we are ever to at least better understand each other and accept the fact that we do stand on some common ground - unlike the unbelievers, the apostates and the unfaithful.
Shall we suggest to the administration of this forum that they go from light moderation to no moderation at all in the spirit of St. Ephraim?

I do not disagree with you.  I simply understand that it is never that simple.  My suggestion, as far as I am concerned, stands.
 
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