Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus

podkarpatska

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elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Of course not, but a "history" written by, or encouraged by patrons of, Governor William Bradford is surely going to contain a different 'history' than one commissioned by say, Squanto.

Our Christian heroes who led the expulsion of the Moors from the European continent are surely not written up as heroes by the scribes of Damascus, are they?

I really think that all you you engaging in this endless back and forth know that and you are NEVER going to convince the other that you are right and they are wrong.

 

Schultz

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podkarpatska said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Of course not, but a "history" written by, or encouraged by patrons of, Governor William Bradford is surely going to contain a different 'history' than one commissioned by say, Squanto.

Our Christian heroes who led the expulsion of the Moors from the European continent are surely not written up as heroes by the scribes of Damascus, are they?

I really think that all you you engaging in this endless back and forth know that and you are NEVER going to convince the other that you are right and they are wrong.
Of course not.  It's all triumphalism and pride and ego wrapped up in hubris and "good intentions."  Threads like this, full of vainglory and adults acting like crossword kindergartners ("Are so!"), are one of the reasons I burned out as a mod. 
 

J Michael

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ialmisry said:
J Michael said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
That's what I thought.

So all that's really being said here is that if the documents are Orthodox Catholic then they are true and if they are Papal Catholic then they are false...

I got that...
You would do better to get the alleged documents (IIRC, you claimed to have seen them once) and produce them for inspection.  So far, we have basically been told to take known biased sources at their word.
I take it you're referring to "known [Catholic] biased sources"?  If so, are you implying that any known or unknown Orthodox sources are *not* biased?
The szlachta were not Orthodox, the Orthodox szlach having been all but eliminated, the scions of the Ostrogski, for instance, defiling the memory of their fathers by submitting to the Vatican, and dying out.  Lew Sapieha had apostacized many times over before he submitted to enforcing the Vatican's "union of brest."
??? ???

Did that answer my questions?
 

elijahmaria

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podkarpatska said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Of course not, but a "history" written by, or encouraged by patrons of, Governor William Bradford is surely going to contain a different 'history' than one commissioned by say, Squanto.

Our Christian heroes who led the expulsion of the Moors from the European continent are surely not written up as heroes by the scribes of Damascus, are they?

I really think that all you you engaging in this endless back and forth know that and you are NEVER going to convince the other that you are right and they are wrong.
I didn't mean to challenge you so doggedly just to be mean.  I do think this clarification is helpful.

 

ialmisry

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J Michael said:
ialmisry said:
J Michael said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
podkarpatska said:
There may be some merit in Peter's comparison although it is probable St. Josaphat had different powers of persuasion available to him in his era than did St. Alexis. After all, we were still burning witches in  Massachusetts Bay Colony in the late 1600's. I try not to be a revisionist so I try to view historical figures not by our modern standards of conduct but rather in the context of their own times.

The St. Josaphat thread is like trying to argue history based on myth or ideology with a true believer - whether an Orthodox believer's one or a Polish Catholic's one.

We Yanks obviously view the first Thanksgiving at Plymouth Plantation from a different point of view than do say the descendants of the Native Americans who were displaced by the English. Bloody Sunday has a far different meaning to lives in being residing in the historical boundaries of the UK depending upon one's national perspective.

Honestly, I don't see any real purpose from this thread, other than to increase passions and fuel anger.
Are you suggesting that we cannot really have a documented history that extends back past the early 1700's let's say?
Sure we can: history can document propoganda back millenia.
That's what I thought.

So all that's really being said here is that if the documents are Orthodox Catholic then they are true and if they are Papal Catholic then they are false...

I got that...
You would do better to get the alleged documents (IIRC, you claimed to have seen them once) and produce them for inspection.  So far, we have basically been told to take known biased sources at their word.
I take it you're referring to "known [Catholic] biased sources"?  If so, are you implying that any known or unknown Orthodox sources are *not* biased?
The szlachta were not Orthodox, the Orthodox szlach having been all but eliminated, the scions of the Ostrogski, for instance, defiling the memory of their fathers by submitting to the Vatican, and dying out.  Lew Sapieha had apostacized many times over before he submitted to enforcing the Vatican's "union of brest."
??? ???

Did that answer my questions?
I took the bull by the horn and brought up the non-Orthodox sources not biased, at least not in favor of the Orthodox.

So far the sources offered are the general, hagiographical fluff. So far, I haven't seen any hatchet jobs offered against him, just what his contemporaries had to say.
 

biro

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So, no one has a problem with killing a man without trial, because you heard some rumors about him?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

Again, Jesus forgave the people who crucified him.

Who are we if we do less?
 

elijahmaria

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biro said:
So, no one has a problem with killing a man without trial, because you heard some rumors about him?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

Again, Jesus forgave the people who crucified him.

Who are we if we do less?
Bears repeating...
 

ialmisry

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biro said:
So, no one has a problem with killing a man without trial, because you heard some rumors about him?
no one who heard some rumors killed him.  He was killed by those who knew his oppression first hand.

Whom did St. Mark kill?  After all, that was the point of the OP, a comparison between the saint and the inquisitor of Brest.

biro said:
I just want to make sure we're on the same page.
No, but here are some pages to be on:

The Cossacks and Religion in Early Modern Ukraine By Serhii Plokhy
http://books.google.com/books?id=NCzzxNisc1MC&pg=PA92&dq=Kuntsevych&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m9-ZT5iKJ4HC6AGAgfHJBg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Kuntsevych&f=false

On a different page-because it deals with the opposition to the Pole promoted hagiagraphy on Kuntsevych-see here, on Kuntsevych's "canonization":
Religion and Nationality in Western Ukraine: The Greek Catholic Church and the Ruthenian National movement in Galicia 1867-1900 By John-Paul Himka
http://books.google.com/books?id=j2yhkvCx60IC&pg=PA28&dq=Kuntsevych&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m9-ZT5iKJ4HC6AGAgfHJBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Kuntsevych&f=false

Morality and Reality: The Life and Times of Andrei Sheptyts'kyi By Paul R. Magocsi
http://books.google.com/books?id=TmXYeKOISCoC&pg=PA211&dq=Kuntsevych&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XfOZT8alJYz46QGw5vmCBw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=Kuntsevych&f=false

Ukrainians in Canada: The Formative Period, 1891-1924  By Orest T. Martynowych
http://books.google.com/books?id=71Wnflm9lYgC&pg=PA501&dq=Kuntsevych&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XfOZT8alJYz46QGw5vmCBw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=Kuntsevych&f=false
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
The Ostrogskis and other Ruthenian nobles had the right parents.  They disgraced their memory by turning their backs of the Faith of their Fathers and picking the wrong faith.

biro said:
Again, Jesus forgave the people who crucified him.

Who are we if we do less?
The right parents.
 

mike

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biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
 

ialmisry

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Michał Kalina said:
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
 

podkarpatska

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ialmisry said:
Michał Kalina said:
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.
 

J Michael

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podkarpatska said:
ialmisry said:
Michał Kalina said:
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.
Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  :laugh:
 

Papist

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J Michael said:
podkarpatska said:
ialmisry said:
Michał Kalina said:
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.
Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  :laugh:
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.
 

J Michael

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Papist said:
J Michael said:
podkarpatska said:
ialmisry said:
Michał Kalina said:
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.
Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  :laugh:
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.
Yup.
 

ialmisry

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J Michael said:
Papist said:
J Michael said:
podkarpatska said:
ialmisry said:
Michał Kalina said:
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.
Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  :laugh:
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.
Yup.
The Dictates of the Pope
1.That the Roman church was founded by God alone.
2.That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
3.That he alone can depose or reinstate bishops.
4.That, in a council his legate, even if a lower grade, is above all bishops, and can pass sentence of deposition against them.
5.That the pope may depose the absent.
6.That, among other things, we ought not to remain in the same house with those excommunicated by him.
7.That for him alone is it lawful, according to the needs of the time, to make new laws, to assemble together new congregations, to make an abbey of a canonry; and, on the other hand, to divide a rich bishopric and unite the poor ones.
8.That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9.That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10.That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11.That this is the only name in the world.
12.That it may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
13.That he may be permitted to transfer bishops if need be.
14.That he has power to ordain a clerk of any church he may wish.
15.That he who is ordained by him may preside over another church, but may not hold a subordinate position; and that such a one may not receive a higher grade from any bishop.
16.That no synod shall be called a general one without his order.
17.That no chapter and no book shall be considered canonical without his authority.
18.That a sentence passed by him may be retracted by no one; and that he himself, alone of all, may retract it.
19.That he himself may be judged by no one.
20.That no one shall dare to condemn one who appeals to the apostolic chair.
21.That to the latter should be referred the more important cases of every church.
22.That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness.
23.That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As is contained in the decrees of St. Symmachus the pope.
24.That, by his command and consent, it may be lawful for subordinates to bring accusations.
25.That he may depose and reinstate bishops without assembling a synod.
26.That he who is not at peace with the Roman church shall not be considered catholic.
27.That he may absolve subjects from their fealty to wicked men.
http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/g7-dictpap.asp
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/B8-unam.asp
 

elijahmaria

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Thank you for posting the notes above al Misry!!

These are the very things that the First Vatican Council set out to limit. 

Now we know that papal power and authority does not take the place of the ordinary power of the episcopate.
 

podkarpatska

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Papist said:
J Michael said:
podkarpatska said:
ialmisry said:
Michał Kalina said:
biro said:
If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.
What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.
Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.
Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  :laugh:
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.
Wow - of course the east has much to account for that. Duh. :mad:

But - as Roman Catholics, if you really want to maintain a shred of credibility here or in the real world for that matter- and you are pushing my buttons so I can not imagine what you are doing to others here - you should look in the mirror.

For example I suppose you never heard of say Roderic Llançol i de Borja (Pope Alexander II) or  Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (Pope Leo X) and their little ventures into the secular realms and their connivance and duplicitous dealings with the Kings of England, France and Spain - just to name a few - and the Borja Pope's dealings with the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II and his brother and rival to the throne Cem?

How about Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII and Pope Julius? That political gig by Wolsey as Lord Chancellor of England for King Henry didn't really work out so well for the Catholic Church did it?

Heck, we could start a whole new thread about how 'my church screwed around with politics in a crappier way than did yours' - wow that would be revealing - at least by providing fuel for the unbelievers who would dance around our ridiculous vanities.

I deleted the last line of my prior post for it ventured astray into contemporary politics. But suffice it to say the allure of intermingling the Church with the sullied hands of crass politicians is as tempting to the USCCB as ever it was to the most scheming of medieval princes of the Church - and likely to end in just as calamitous way, in my opinion.
 

Papist

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USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
 
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