• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Confused About the Rites

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Jules_Grant said:
Michał Kalina said:
St. Gregory IS the Tridentine rite.
Albeit altered. Has a Byzantine epiclesis and no filioque (not that I support the filioque to begin with).
Most studies of the history of the Western Rite claim that there was an Epiklesis in the original Western Rite. Significantly, in  Novo Ordo Roman Catholic Mass, every Canon of the Mass, but the Roman Canon has an Epiklesis.
I may be wrong, but I heard that the Patriarch wanted the pre-Communion prayer from the Eastern Liturgy inserted to insure that it is clear that the Western Rite Orthodox must actually believe that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, not just a symbol or a kind of spiritual presence as some Anglican believe.
Fr. John W. Morris
 

primuspilus

Taxiarches
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
7,990
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
43
Location
A displaced Southerner in the Godless North
Website
www.saintgregorythetheologian.org
Faith
Greek Orthodox (former WR)
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
I may be wrong, but I heard that the Patriarch wanted the pre-Communion prayer from the Eastern Liturgy inserted to insure that it is clear that the Western Rite Orthodox must actually believe that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, not just a symbol or a kind of spiritual presence as some Anglican believe
I was under the impression that it was Met. Phillip that ordered this.

PP
 

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
primuspilus said:
I may be wrong, but I heard that the Patriarch wanted the pre-Communion prayer from the Eastern Liturgy inserted to insure that it is clear that the Western Rite Orthodox must actually believe that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, not just a symbol or a kind of spiritual presence as some Anglican believe
I was under the impression that it was Met. Phillip that ordered this.

PP
I heard that it was the Patriarch. One problem with the Book of Common Prayer is that it was deliberately written in a way that can be interpreted several different ways. I heard that His Beatitude wanted to make it clear that we believe that the bread and wine are actually transformed by the Holy Spirit into the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Fr. John W.  Morris
 

Sleeper

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
1,350
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
U.S.
frjohnmorris said:
primuspilus said:
I may be wrong, but I heard that the Patriarch wanted the pre-Communion prayer from the Eastern Liturgy inserted to insure that it is clear that the Western Rite Orthodox must actually believe that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, not just a symbol or a kind of spiritual presence as some Anglican believe
I was under the impression that it was Met. Phillip that ordered this.

PP
I heard that it was the Patriarch. One problem with the Book of Common Prayer is that it was deliberately written in a way that can be interpreted several different ways. I heard that His Beatitude wanted to make it clear that we believe that the bread and wine are actually transformed by the Holy Spirit into the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Fr. John W.  Morris
The prayers were added by the Patriarch, and are present in both of the WR liturgies, though neither really needed them. The DL of St. Tikhon in particular has some of the most explicit prayers in any liturgy. While the prayers do indeed serve to further highlight that doctrine, they were also (and maybe primarily?) added so that ER visitors had something familiar to pray when attending WR masses.
 

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Sleeper said:
frjohnmorris said:
primuspilus said:
I may be wrong, but I heard that the Patriarch wanted the pre-Communion prayer from the Eastern Liturgy inserted to insure that it is clear that the Western Rite Orthodox must actually believe that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, not just a symbol or a kind of spiritual presence as some Anglican believe
I was under the impression that it was Met. Phillip that ordered this.

PP
I heard that it was the Patriarch. One problem with the Book of Common Prayer is that it was deliberately written in a way that can be interpreted several different ways. I heard that His Beatitude wanted to make it clear that we believe that the bread and wine are actually transformed by the Holy Spirit into the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Fr. John W.  Morris
The prayers were added by the Patriarch, and are present in both of the WR liturgies, though neither really needed them. The DL of St. Tikhon in particular has some of the most explicit prayers in any liturgy. While the prayers do indeed serve to further highlight that doctrine, they were also (and maybe primarily?) added so that ER visitors had something familiar to pray when attending WR masses.
I am sorry to disagree with you, but the Anglican prayers can be used by someone who believes as we do that the bread and wine are actually changed into the Body and  Blood of Christ as well as someone who believes that the bread and wine only symbolize the Body and Blood of Christ and that Christ is only spiritually present. Since most members of Western Rite are converts from Anglicanism, we have to be careful that they understand exactly what they are expected to believe as Orthodox Christians.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

dcointin

Jr. Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
61
Reaction score
0
Points
0
My own parish used the Liturgy of St. Tikhon before changing to the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  I was uncomfortable with some of the language used since I know the understanding of Cramner, a Zwinglian in his Eucharistic belief, when he composed it.  For example, "Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving."
 

Sleeper

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
1,350
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
U.S.
The entire Mass must be taken into context, though. Many prayers by themselves could have all sorts of things "read into" them, including those from the Byzantine liturgy. Here are a few explicit examples from the Mass of St. Tikhon:

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us; and of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to send down thy holy Spirit upon these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine, that they may be changed into the Body and Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son. Grant that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood.

...humbly beseeching thee, that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him.

...deliver me by thy most sacred Body and Blood from all mine iniquities.

Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood in these Holy Mysteries, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.

Almighty and ever living God, we most heartily thank thee, for that thou dost vouchsafe to feed us who have duly received these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ; and dost assure us thereby of thy favor and goodness towards us; and that we are very members incorporate in the mystical body of thy Son, which is the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs through hope of thy everlasting kingdom.


These prayers are just as explicit as, "And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood." I also love their portrayal of the intimate connection between the holy mysteries and theosis.
 

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Sleeper said:
The entire Mass must be taken into context, though. Many prayers by themselves could have all sorts of things "read into" them, including those from the Byzantine liturgy. Here are a few explicit examples from the Mass of St. Tikhon:

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us; and of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to send down thy holy Spirit upon these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine, that they may be changed into the Body and Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son. Grant that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood.

...humbly beseeching thee, that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him.

...deliver me by thy most sacred Body and Blood from all mine iniquities.

Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood in these Holy Mysteries, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.

Almighty and ever living God, we most heartily thank thee, for that thou dost vouchsafe to feed us who have duly received these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ; and dost assure us thereby of thy favor and goodness towards us; and that we are very members incorporate in the mystical body of thy Son, which is the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs through hope of thy everlasting kingdom.


These prayers are just as explicit as, "And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood." I also love their portrayal of the intimate connection between the holy mysteries and theosis.
The Epiklesis is specific, but it was added. There are many Anglicans who say the other prayers and vehemently deny that the bread and wine are changed into the actual Body and Blood of Christ, as does one of the 39 Articles of Anglican doctrine. In fact outright Calvinism is growing among continuing Anglicans. Therefore, it is important that the Western Rite Orthodox version of Anglican services be as explicit as possible and emphasize the correct Orthodox doctrine that there the bread and wine are really transformed into the real Body and Blood of Christ. 

Fr. John W. Morris
 

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
frjohnmorris said:
Sleeper said:
The entire Mass must be taken into context, though. Many prayers by themselves could have all sorts of things "read into" them, including those from the Byzantine liturgy. Here are a few explicit examples from the Mass of St. Tikhon:

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us; and of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to send down thy holy Spirit upon these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine, that they may be changed into the Body and Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son. Grant that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood.

...humbly beseeching thee, that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him.

...deliver me by thy most sacred Body and Blood from all mine iniquities.

Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood in these Holy Mysteries, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.

Almighty and ever living God, we most heartily thank thee, for that thou dost vouchsafe to feed us who have duly received these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ; and dost assure us thereby of thy favor and goodness towards us; and that we are very members incorporate in the mystical body of thy Son, which is the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs through hope of thy everlasting kingdom.


These prayers are just as explicit as, "And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood." I also love their portrayal of the intimate connection between the holy mysteries and theosis.
The Epiklesis is specific, but it was added. There are many Anglicans who say the other prayers and vehemently deny that the bread and wine are changed into the actual Body and Blood of Christ, as does one of the 39 Articles of Anglican doctrine. In fact outright Calvinism is growing among continuing Anglicans. Therefore, it is important that the Western Rite Orthodox version of Anglican services be as explicit as possible and emphasize the correct Orthodox doctrine that there the bread and wine are really transformed into the real Body and Blood of Christ. 
Besides the Byzantine Prayer "I believe..." is  beautiful addition to the Western Rite. Throughout history Western and Eastern Rites have borrow from each other, the chant, "Glory be to God..." in the Western Mass was taken from Byzantine Rite Matins.
Fr. John W. Morris
 
Top