Consequences

Poppy

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I don't get the hell consequence at all. I mean, i understand consequences, sure... you perform a action and you get a consequence.

Mostly i consider all the consequences to things rli carefully before i do anything and accept them if they come back in my face. Appart from the ones i didn't know about or the ones where i open my mouth and wish i haden't. Then you still have to accept the consequences because it was YOU that did the thing that got you there so, on the whole i am good with consequences i think.

The ultimate consequence of someone who lives their life in a good way, but with their own code and not God's rule is that they end up in hell. That is a consequence

Some consequences put you off doing a thing because the consequence is too high and cost you too much like i might want to kill someone but i don't want to end up in jail so therefore i don't do it. But if i thought i could get away with it and if i hated that person so much i think i would do it. But even then, the consequences (spiritually) would catch up with me = hell.

(don't move this Thomas  :p)

Ok so hell, doesn't put me off. I have heard all the stories about hell being so bad and something that i couldn't imagine but it has no effect on me like a consequence should. I don't get motivated by ppl telling me that God will make my life difficult or that i will be putting myself in danger of evil without God because i know as a human being that i am in control of my own destiny to a large extend.
What i am saying is that none of that consequence affects me at all.

Is that normal?? Have you heard of that before and then what happened to the person??

Salvation is so sketchy that my choices are this. I live my life as Christian as i can (even though i don't believe in God properly or feel sorry for any "sin") and then hope that is enough to get me into heaven, the fact that i was obedient anyways OR i accept that rli i am not Agnostic (because i can't say anymore that i don't know) but that i am Atheist because i can't make myself believe entirely.

I am willing to be as obedient as i can but all the time being honest to God about what i think or what i don't believe and also i would have to be honest to the priest as well (which wouldnt get me absolution lolOl because he would tell me to come back when i DO feel sorry) so that doesn't leave me any hope that i will make it to heaven anyways because im not going to be even off first base!!!

Ok so you will tell me that if i am obedient i might change and feel differently as i go along BUT my worry is that i might not, and it all might be worthless all the years of trying to feel sorry or believe something i can't.

The reason i am thinking so far ahead is because thats what i do in life anyways. I always think how something might turn out and what the chances are of it turning out good.....before i even take one step.

What other consequences can you tell me that might make a difference to me and make me think differently about God??

God isn't scary to me, not much IS scary to me. I was trying to think of something that might motivate me that was negative and the only thing i could think of is if someone took my baby brother and had him hostage. I don't think God would do that haha.... but really that is the only thing i can think of that would be a consequence that might would a difference to me.
Thanks Poppy
 

Manalive

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I have heard that among some of the Fathers that Hell is the burning love of God that you have reject and can't get away from. You are in hell freely because the consequences of your actions led you to reject God. You rejected him in this life so it is only logical you would hate Him in eternal life. You are in hell because you do not accept God-- but the love of God is everywhere and this love burns you.

I did not accept faith in God because I was afraid of going to hell. I felt I was broken and as C.S. Lewis said: "You must picture me... Night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him Whom I desired not to meet". I read too much, yes, I wanted to believe it from history and logic.. But more than that it took faith, suffering, and a contrite heart.  I had enough of the worlds pleasures and desires, that I wanted something more. You're going to be banging you're head on the wall for the rest of your life if you try to put your mind and will over God's and trust your own judgement. Everyones conversion stories are different but don't be afraid, just believe.

"To the superficial and the guilty it is more comfortable to bathe in the shallow pool of human thought than in the dangerous depths of Christ."-  St Nikolai Velimirovich 
 

Poppy

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Heorhij....yeah i read it. Its ok but mostly a history of how the west has distorted the message and theology into God being the source of all evil and so deep down we're all haters of God and we mostly dont realise it that we think he's the guilty one for all our problems. He does have some interesting thoughts on God as the river of fire and all the other connections to fire like the Holy Spirit and light and loving fire and consumming fire but, it was bareley interesting. Thanks though but i read it a bit ago.



"To the superficial and the guilty it is more comfortable to bathe in the shallow pool of human thought than in the dangerous depths of Christ."-  St Nikolai Velimirovich
That's something that makes me nervy and thats love. Maybe not scary buti am suspicious of it because it is so hyped and when you test it, its empty. so maybe this saying has some truth its easier to stay out of the depths of God. Its hard though for me to think of God like that and not just logical like with check boxes...done this, need to do that etc...

Thanks though thats a interesting thing
 

mark thomas

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Poppy,

Your question runs really deep, and I am only going to try to answer a small part of it, and only from my own experience. I hope I can articulate this well.

I don't know if it's normal or not to be unafraid of consequences, like hell, but I was that way once. Your reasons may be vastly different than mine were, but years ago I was full of pain and rage. My heart was empty. When you are in a constant state of internal suffering and you feel you have nothing to lose, negative consequences are meaningless, and nothing can scare you. Not God, not Hell.

I was interested in religion, and I respected God's power, but a concept like "Gods love" was completely alien to me.  I knew all I ever wanted about authority, though. And that is how I understood God - as a complete Authoritarian who demanded absolute obedience. And I was in complete rebellion against Him.

He never abandoned me, though.

A long time later, mainly because some people modeled Christ's love, my understanding began to change. And, honestly, it has only been through the teachings of the Orthodox Church that I have been able to view God as a "Person" (as opposed to distant being or a faceless force), and as being Love.  When I began to get the tiniest inkling of that love, it overwhelmed me. And I am still growing in this, and have a long way to go.

So, you asked if there were any negative consequences that might influence you. I am mostly motivated by positive consequences. But the one negative consequence that I find constantly motivates me is this:

I do not want to wound the heart of One who loves me so much.

I am not sure if I have been able to say what I am trying to express correctly, or if I have at all answered any of your question, but I hope you are able to understand my answer.
 

Thomas

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MODERATOR REMINDER

The Purpose of the Convert Issues Forum clearly notes:

"Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful."

Over her several topics posted, Poppy frequently  provides many questions that are deep and more appropriate for other areas of the OC.net, however as an inquirer I try to keep her questions here for as long as I can. In answering her questions, I would like to ask the forum members to present her with strong Orthodox answers with resources cited so she can look the citations up and gain a better understanding of the mind of the Orthodox Church and the theologically correct stances.

The best place for Poppy's and other inquirers indepth questions, of course, would be the local Orthodox Pastor serving in the community where the inquirer lives. Here at the Convert Issues Forum we try to keep our answers simple and direct with resources  so that the inquirer may find the answers they request and with hope enter into communion withthe Holy Orthodox Church.

Thanks for providing resources and references for our inquirers and seekers.

Thomas
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"The dead bodies of the ungodly will also be resurrected, but not in heavenly glory, for they will not be fashioned in the likeness of the glorious body of Christ, nor will they see the vision of God promised to beleivers, which is called the kingdom of God."Let the wicked be taken away, that he behold not the glory of the Lord," as the Scripture says (Isaiah 26:10, LXX). But those born and nurtured according to Christ, who as far as they were able, attained to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:13), will also obtain the blessing of the divine radiance and will, according to the Scripture,"shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father" (Matthew 13:43). St Gregory Palamas (sermon on redemption from The saving Work of Christ ed. by C. Veniamin MT Tabor Press isbn # 978-0-9774983-5-2).
 

katherineofdixie

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Just some observations, based solely on my own experience (YMMV, of course):

1. We are not nearly as much the masters of our fate as we believe. Things (events, persons, disasters, illness) come out of left field and knock us off course.
I'm sure that my mother never thought that she would be widowed with two children before she was 40. My dad was never sick a day in his life until he entered the hospital for the first and last time in his life. But all our lives were affected by that. I'm sure that my brother never thought when he and his wife got in the car to go for ice cream one hot summer night that he would not be coming back. Stuff happens, and we can anticipate some, but not all, and not even most, consequences.

2. Salvation is not "just" about where we end up. Salvation is healing and restoration and becoming the person God meant us to be.
 

sainthieu

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2. Salvation is not "just" about where we end up. Salvation is healing and restoration and becoming the person God meant us to be.

Aye that.

 
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