Constantinople really is in love with itself - Change my mind

[Menas17]

Metropolitan Geron Emmanuel of Chalcedon Enthroned in Constantinople

From the article:

"Constantinople honor the Ecumenical Patriarch, the only one who is honored to accept appeals, the superior who has the jurisdiction and accepts under him all the peoples outside the prescribed territories, and the all-holy institution, which since 1991 has been the most prominent personality of its History, Your Holy Highness."

If by "most prominent" they mean "most divisive" then I might be more sympathetic

 

[hecma925]

Yeah, they like flowery language. Read Abp Elpidoforos' (GOAA) speech when he was enthroned.

Enthronement Address of His Eminence Archbishop Elpidophoros - 2019 - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Indeed, my heart, soul, and mind are ready and eager to embark on this great challenge and charge that our Thrice-Holy God has granted to me by His grace, with my election, at the recommendation of His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, by the most reverend members of the Holy and...

www.goarch.org

 

[Samn!]

Yeah, they like flowery language. Read Abp Elpidoforos' (GOAA) speech when he was enthroned.

A true classic of the genre! I think this kind of thing is just a very extreme case of an institution committing itself to survival-through-self-mythologizing long after the purpose for that institution has completely disappeared. That's why these people seem so perverse, the empty shell of authority wielded without reference to reality.

 

[hecma925]

The King of Istanbul merely needs to make a call to the Phanar and things change. Langley does the same thing, too.

 

[Menas17]

A true classic of the genre! I think this kind of thing is just a very extreme case of an institution committing itself to survival-through-self-mythologizing long after the purpose for that institution has completely disappeared. That's why these people seem so perverse, the empty shell of authority wielded without reference to reality.

I can't wrap my head around how the Patriarchate of Constantinople is so full of itself like its the height of the Byzantine Empire. At best they oversee a flock of a couple thousand people in Istanbul with the majority of their flock being in the diaspora. I mean, do the other Orthodox Churches take this stuff seriously from them?

 

[EmperorConstantine]

I can't wrap my head around how the Patriarchate of Constantinople is so full of itself like its the height of the Byzantine Empire. At best they oversee a flock of a couple thousand people in Istanbul with the majority of their flock being in the diaspora. I mean, do the other Orthodox Churches take this stuff seriously from them?

Nope!

Constantinople had more power under the Turks than they did under the Byzantines anyway. Besides, if your local parish has at least forty people for any given service than you've already outdone the Fanar.

 

[Samn!]

. I mean, do the other Orthodox Churches take this stuff seriously from them?

The other Greek ones do, for a variety of reasons. It's worth remembering that Contantinople also has jurisdiction over the autonomous Church of Crete and indirect jurisdiction over much of Northern Greece and in the 1910s they were able to claim exclusive jurisdiction over the entire Greek-speaking diaspora. So they do have more than just the handful of Greeks in Istanbul. Their authority is closely tied to very complicated Greek feelings about Byzantium, loss of empire, ownership over Orthodoxy, etc. It's a toxic mix of lust for power and idle talk, but it has a powerful hold over a lot of people.

 

[Menas17]

The other Greek ones do, for a variety of reasons. It's worth remembering that Contantinople also has jurisdiction over the autonomous Church of Crete and indirect jurisdiction over much of Northern Greece and in the 1910s they were able to claim exclusive jurisdiction over the entire Greek-speaking diaspora. So they do have more than just the handful of Greeks in Istanbul. Their authority is closely tied to very complicated Greek feelings about Byzantium, loss of empire, ownership over Orthodoxy, etc. It's a toxic mix of lust for power and idle talk, but it has a powerful hold over a lot of people.

The only two that don't seem to be completely on-board with it are Albania & Jerusalem, both have Greek primates. But, in the case of Albania I think most of their bishops/priests are ethnic Albanians at this point so that may be holding them back. Likewise, the overwhelming majority of the flock of the Jeruslame patriarchate are Arabs so that may be holding back the patriarch from fully accepting the "greek narrative"

Not sure how legit that reasoning is since the Alexandrian patriarch is Greek but almost his entire flock is Sub-Saharan African

 

[Samn!]

Not sure how legit that reasoning is since the Alexandrian patriarch is Greek but almost his entire flock is Sub-Saharan African

In Albania, Archbishop Anastasios is a very principled man who isn't beholden to anyone. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is very beholden to the Russians, who in addition to the clout from the number of their pilgrims and their own monasteries i the Holy Land have good enough relations with Israel to get away with starting a parallel Palestinian church if it came down to it. There have been lots of signs of local clergy in Kenya especially unhappy with the Patriarchate of Alexandria's Hellenocentrism (with a couple notable exceptions, Alexandria's Greek bishops in Subsaharan Africa live in Greece and are pretty disconnected from their flocks) and seeking recognition from Russia, but Russia has so far held back from going nuclear on that front...

 

[Katechon]

In Albania, Archbishop Anastasios is a very principled man who isn't beholden to anyone. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is very beholden to the Russians, who in addition to the clout from the number of their pilgrims and their own monasteries i the Holy Land have good enough relations with Israel to get away with starting a parallel Palestinian church if it came down to it. There have been lots of signs of local clergy in Kenya especially unhappy with the Patriarchate of Alexandria's Hellenocentrism (with a couple notable exceptions, Alexandria's Greek bishops in Subsaharan Africa live in Greece and are pretty disconnected from their flocks) and seeking recognition from Russia, but Russia has so far held back from going nuclear on that front...

It's an especially unfortunate situation because Alexandria only claims jurisdiction in all Africa since the 1920s...

 

[Menas17]

...seeking recognition from Russia, but Russia has so far held back from going nuclear on that front...

Do you think this will actually happen come November if the Church of Russia decides to formally anathematize and excommunicate Patriarch Bartholomew?

I remember seeing a while back that Russia was planning on setting up parallel parishes in Turkey that wouldn't be under EP bishops, not sure if they ever did that or not.

 

[Samn!]

Do you think this will actually happen come November if the Church of Russia decides to formally anathematize and excommunicate Patriarch Bartholomew?

If they go that route, I imagine so. But we can really hope they don't go that route.

I remember seeing a while back that Russia was planning on setting up parallel parishes in Turkey that wouldn't be under EP bishops, not sure if they ever did that or not.

They did. There are parishes under the MP in Istanbul and Antalya (the two cities where the EP has regular parishes), they were given permission by the local government in Izmir to use a church building there for Theophany, and they have been able to organize services in at least a few cities where the EP hasn't had services in modern times- Samsun, Eskisehir, Kusadasi and maybe one or two others. The week around Theophany was something of a show of force in terms of demonstrating a better ability to hold services in Turkey than the EP. The elephant in the room with this is that Russians, Moldovans, etc vastly outnumber Greeks in Turkey. (And for that matter, Orthodox Arabs from Hatay also vastly outnumber Greeks).

 

[Menas17]

If they go that route, I imagine so. But we can really hope they don't go that route.



They did. There are parishes under the MP in Istanbul and Antalya (the two cities where the EP has regular parishes), they were given permission by the local government in Izmir to use a church building there for Theophany, and they have been able to organize services in at least a few cities where the EP hasn't had services in modern times- Samsun, Eskisehir, Kusadasi and maybe one or two others. The week around Theophany was something of a show of force in terms of demonstrating a better ability to hold services in Turkey than the EP. The elephant in the room with this is that Russians, Moldovans, etc vastly outnumber Greeks in Turkey. (And for that matter, Orthodox Arabs from Hatay also vastly outnumber Greeks).

Interesting. I guess the Ecumenical Patriarch is getting a taste of his own medicine. It will be interesting to see what unfolds in Greece, Cyprus & Alexandria since those are the only Churches that have followed Patriarch Bartholomew, and even then it was not a consensus from all bishops in the synod. I guess it's a possibility that priests/bishops could hypothetically align themselves with the Russian Church or something? I have no clue how any of that would work.

 

[Samn!]

I have no clue how any of that would work.

I don't think anyone does. But if that sort of thing happens, it will be very hard for the Church to recover its unity.

 

[biro]

I really don’t think we could change your mind. And I’m not even Roman Catholic anymore.

 

[Samn!]

Here, I suppose, is as good a place as any to put this.... in the Archbishopop's words, a "magnificent effigy of Athena Parthenos." Hellenism is quite the drug!

 

[Hawkeye]

Unbelievable.

 

[Stinky]

Lord, have mercy.

 

[Opus118]

I do not get it. What is wrong with celebrating the 200th anniversary of Greek Independence in Nashville TN?

 

[Samn!]

What is wrong with celebrating the 200th anniversary of Greek Independence in Nashville TN?

It's pretty unseemly for a Christian bishop to praise a tacky idol and treat it as a symbol of his nationalism. In any other time, it would be seen as apostasy.

 

[Menas17]

I really hope the average Christian in the Greek Archdiocese does not pay attention to these people

 

[Menas17]

It's pretty unseemly for a Christian bishop to praise a tacky idol and treat it as a symbol of his nationalism. In any other time, it would be seen as apostasy.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall and know what Met. Joseph and Met. Tikhon think about these bishops in GOARCH

 

[ialmisry]

Here, I suppose, is as good a place as any to put this.... in the Archbishopop's words, a "magnificent effigy of Athena Parthenos." Hellenism is quite the drug!

I love it! (or rather, hate it). How à propos!

 

[ialmisry]

I do not get it. What is wrong with celebrating the 200th anniversary of Greek Independence in Nashville TN?

nothing, except those celebrating there leave some doubt about their awareness of not being in Greece.

 

[ialmisry]

It's pretty unseemly for a Christian bishop to praise a tacky idol and treat it as a symbol of his nationalism. In any other time, it would be seen as apostasy.

Yeah, sort of like the Hellenic Monument in New Smyrna, which the Greeks try to peddle as the cradle of Orthodoxy in America, the "Greek Plymouth Rock." Not a single reference to the Church nor Orthodoxy in it (other than the Cross on the flag. I wonder how many know why it is there).

 

[Opus118]

There are a lot of statements here with no sources. Please link. I think the Parthenon replica in Nashville (initially constructed in 1895) is a fitting location for celebrating Greek Independence in our country, The Parthenon was a Church (Panagia Athiniotissa) for about 1000 years until the takeover of the Ottoman Empire when it was converted into a Mosque, then an armory (with destructive consequences if memory serves me correctly).

Samn and Ialmisry, please provide the quotes with links.

Ialmisry, please provide quotes from Archbishop Elpidophoros on the matter for "New Smyrna" that you bring up, unless it is a more or less general smear of all descendants of Greeks, which is not relevant to the specifics of this thread.

From what I read, the Nashville Parthenon is an Art Museum and learning center and they commissioned Alan LeQuire to make a replica of Athena which was completed in the 1990s (https://www.nashvilleparthenon.com/history). Is there something wrong with that?

 

[Samn!]

Samn and Ialmisry, please provide the quotes with links.

I linked to it above:

https://www.facebook.com/orthodoxobserver/posts/278064167253362

 

[ialmisry]

Ialmisry, please provide quotes from Archbishop Elpidophoros on the matter for "New Smyrna" that you bring up, unless it is a more or less general smear of all descendants of Greeks, which is not relevant to the specifics of this thread.

No, it is statement on Greeks who are unaware that the New Testament does not follow the Iliad.

The topic of the thread is that the Phanar is full of itself. My statement was very relevant to the specifics of the title.

The GOARCH webpage (and other official publications) continue to cite New Smyrna as its roots. You wouldn't know it from the monument its supposed sons set up there. Not that the facts would back it up. That's OK for a primaeval history of Hellenic America, but not American Orthodoxy.

From what I read, the Nashville Parthenon is an Art Museum and learning center and they commissioned Alan LeQuire to make a replica of Athena which was completed in the 1990s (https://www.nashvilleparthenon.com/history). Is there something wrong with that?

If dead gods are your thing, I guess not. Btw, don't tell the woke crowd that it was set up by Confederate veterans.

I linked to it above:

On the video

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=298339931940792

at 31:34
HE actually does get to mention something Christian, the icon of the Hospitality of Abraham, the Icon of the Most Holy Trinity. Odd-or maybe not-that that was cut from the remarks.

 

[hecma925]

I really hope the average Christian in the Greek Archdiocese does not pay attention to these people

Most are busy working at the restaurant.

 

[recent convert]

No, it is statement on Greeks who are unaware that the New Testament does not follow the Iliad.

The topic of the thread is that the Phanar is full of itself. My statement was very relevant to the specifics of the title.

The GOARCH webpage (and other official publications) continue to cite New Smyrna as its roots. You wouldn't know it from the monument its supposed sons set up there. Not that the facts would back it up. That's OK for a primaeval history of Hellenic America, but not American Orthodoxy.

If dead gods are your thing, I guess not. Btw, don't tell the woke crowd that it was set up by Confederate veterans.



On the video

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=298339931940792

at 31:34
HE actually does get to mention something Christian, the icon of the Hospitality of Abraham, the Icon of the Most Holy Trinity. Odd-or maybe not-that that was cut from the remarks.

Maybe he was acknowledging supporting cast members.

 

[Tzimis]

I really hope the average Christian in the Greek Archdiocese does not pay attention to these people

Why?

 

[Tzimis]

Most are busy working at the restaurant.

Maybe a few decades ago.

 

[Tzimis]

There are a lot of statements here with no sources. Please link. I think the Parthenon replica in Nashville (initially constructed in 1895) is a fitting location for celebrating Greek Independence in our country, The Parthenon was a Church (Panagia Athiniotissa) for about 1000 years until the takeover of the Ottoman Empire when it was converted into a Mosque, then an armory (with destructive consequences if memory serves me correctly).

Samn and Ialmisry, please provide the quotes with links.

Ialmisry, please provide quotes from Archbishop Elpidophoros on the matter for "New Smyrna" that you bring up, unless it is a more or less general smear of all descendants of Greeks, which is not relevant to the specifics of this thread.

From what I read, the Nashville Parthenon is an Art Museum and learning center and they commissioned Alan LeQuire to make a replica of Athena which was completed in the 1990s (https://www.nashvilleparthenon.com/history). Is there something wrong with that?

What Russians do you know that need a source for slander?

 

[hecma925]

Maybe a few decades ago.

True. Faithless Greeks leave the family business.

 

[Menas17]

GOARCH is taking suggestions from the laity on the new charter, if you want to voice your opinion they provided an email to send them to: charter@goarch.org

 

[Saxon]

I linked to it above:

https://www.facebook.com/orthodoxobserver/posts/278064167253362

Well there's a nauseating spectacle if ever there was one. Does the 1872 declaration of ethnophyletism as a heresy not apply if you throw idolatry into the mix?

 

[LizaSymonenko]

Do you also disagree with celebrating the 4th of July? ...or any other national holidays, of various nations, throughout the world?

 

[Saxon]

Do you also disagree with celebrating the 4th of July? ...or any other national holidays, of various nations, throughout the world?

I think the problem here is the massive conflation between church and ethnic identity commonly seen from GOARCH/EP, compounded by the hierarchs' appearance in front of a Vegas-level cartoonish and gaudy pagan idol.

 

[Tzimis]

I think the problem here is the massive conflation between church and ethnic identity commonly seen from GOARCH/EP, compounded by the hierarchs' appearance in front of a Vegas-level cartoonish and gaudy pagan idol.

Like the statue of liberty?
Youre quite the hellenophile.

 

[hecma925]

Libertas > Athena, ethnocultural triumphalism and all that.