Conversions in Philipines

Anastasios

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Theognosis said:
Well that's the genuine Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, not the western hybrid rite that the evangelicals would want to celebrite once they become Orthodox.
Is that what they are saying they want to do? I would be against that.
 

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Theognosis said:
Well that's the genuine Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, not the western hybrid rite that the evangelicals would want to celebrite once they become Orthodox.
Agapitos Theognosis,

I grew up in an ethnic Antiochian parish in the United States. But I now attend an Antiochian parish that was started by evangelicals. The Divine Liturgy is EXACTLY the same in the two parishes except one uses Arabic and the other uses English. I highly doubt Metropolitan Paul Saliba (who is Met. Philip's cousin), would allow a Divine Liturgy that is different.

Kalo Sarakosti, Tamara

ps. Before Met. Paul was made a bishop, he was the parish priest of St. George in Washington DC, the parish my godparents attend. Both of my godparents loved Met. Paul because he was very pastoral and very Orthodox in his teachings. My godparents are of Syrian heritage.

 

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Tamara said:
Agapito Theognosis,

I grew up in an ethnic Antiochian parish in the United States. But I now attend an Antiochian parish that was started by evangelicals. The Divine Liturgy is EXACTLY the same in the two parishes except one uses Arabic and the other uses English. I highly doubt Metropolitan Paul Saliba (who is Met. Philip's cousin), would allow a Divine Liturgy that is different.
Exactly one of the the reasons why the former uncanonical Antiochian mission established  by a certain Australian deacon posing as an Antiochian Abbot in the Philippines was made defunct.  Our brother Theognosis should really consult and talk with his Vicar and Metropolitan.


 

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Theognosis said:
You make very good points.  Perhaps the full information hasn't trickled down to the readers and the laymen.
Yes, that's exactly the reason why I advice you to be very careful with what you say or  write regarding the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East and your Antiochian Orthodox brethren in your country. You don't know what's really going on.  But you will know sooner or later so be prepared.
 

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Theognosis said:
You make very good points.  Perhaps the full information hasn't trickled down to the readers and the laymen.



Agapitos Theognosis,
Please ask your Vicar and Metropolitan for more details.
 

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Theognosis said:
It would be ideal that the new members become part of the growing community that just so happens to be under the jurisdiction of the EP.  The situation in America where multiple jurisdictions exist should not be replicated in the Philippines.
Agapitos Theognosis,
Yes time will come and you will see Antiochian priests giving Holy Communion to both "Greek" Filipino Orthodox and Filipino "Antiochian" Orthodox in the Annunciation Parish in Manila.   There are only three Filipino Orthodox priests (and 1 Greek Vicar) under the EP in the Philippines at the moment. Antiochian priests will be sent to "Greek" Filipino Orthodox parishes that are without regular priests (as many of the parishes and missions under EP in the Philippines are without parish priests and even lay missionaries).  You might find these things "hard to accept"  but you will see all of these things being fulfilled in your time.

 

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filipiniana said:
P.S.  I have attended the Divine Liturgy at the Annunciation Parish in Manila and all I saw were less than 30 people inside the church and most of the time its almost empty even on Major Feast Days.  So perhaps now you understand what the story of the beautiful but barren Fig Tree is trying to convey.
God enlighten and bless you my Filipino brothers in Orthodoxy.
Man, this is a very sad thing..

Im not really THAT aware of the situation, but wouldn't cooperation between the two, help more to plant Orthodoxy here in the Philippines? Honestly I find this squabbling quite fruitless.. (Im sorry for that)..
 

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sohma_hatori said:
Man, this is a very sad thing..

Im not really THAT aware of the situation, but wouldn't cooperation between the two, help more to plant Orthodoxy here in the Philippines? Honestly I find this squabbling quite fruitless.. (Im sorry for that)..
You're absolutely right Sohma_hatori. The problem is some faithful care only about jurisdiction, jurisdiction and jurisdiction. But we can not really blame them because they are not aware of what is really going on. You see, even the Filipino Orthodox Priest (EP) in Mindanao apparently gave you the wrong information last time? They are simply not aware. Now whose really to blame for this "fruitless squabbling"?   The ordinary faithful (readers, laymen) or their Vicar or Administrative leaders who are keeping all the vital information and the truth from them? As far as I'm concerned, the Pastoral and Administrative leaders of the Antiochian jurisdiction are not witholding the necessary information to their faithful (you see, even the bank account number for the donation was proclaimed  not only from the pulpit of the Cathedral in Australia but also published on the worldwide web :laugh:). Perhaps the Administrative leaders from the EP is aware that the majority of the faithful under their jurisdiction will find these agreement and arrangement very  "hard to accept"  so they witheld the information (in good faith) until such time that they (the Filipino Orthodox faithful under the EP)  are ready to accept them.  The Antiochians and the Greeks are brothers in Orthodoxy so what's all the squabbling? You know the answer and I repeat, some faithful only care about jurisdiction, jurisdiction and jurisdiction.

 

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filipiniana said:
You're absolutely right Sohma_hatori. The problem is some faithful care only about jurisdiction, jurisdiction and jurisdiction. But we can not really blame them because they are not aware of what is really going on. You see, even the Filipino Orthodox Priest (EP) in Mindanao apparently gave you the wrong information last time? They are simply not aware. Now whose really to blame for this "fruitless squabbling"?   The ordinary faithful (readers, laymen) or their Vicar or Administrative leaders who are keeping all the vital information and the truth from them? As far as I'm concerned, the Pastoral and Administrative leaders of the Antiochian jurisdiction are not witholding the necessary information to their faithful (you see, even the bank account number for the donation was proclaimed  not only from the pulpit of the Cathedral in Australia but also published on the worldwide web :laugh:). Perhaps the Administrative leaders from the EP is aware that the majority of the faithful under their jurisdiction will find these agreement and arrangement very  "hard to accept"  so they witheld the information (in good faith) until such time that they (the Filipino Orthodox faithful under the EP)  are ready to accept them.  The Antiochians and the Greeks are brothers in Orthodoxy so what's all the squabbling? You know the answer and I repeat, some faithful only care about jurisdiction, jurisdiction and jurisdiction.
Dear Filipiniana,

I am happy regardless of what jurisdiction was chosen. It is truly miracle, just as it was a miracle when the evangelicals joined Orthodoxy in North America 20 years ago. I view it as a sign that the Holy Spirit is at work bringing more people into the Church.

your sister in Christ, Tamara

 

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Tamara said:
Dear Filipiniana,

I am happy regardless of what jurisdiction was chosen. It is truly miracle, just as it was a miracle when the evangelicals joined Orthodoxy in North America 20 years ago. I view it as a sign that the Holy Spirit is at work bringing more people into the Church.

your sister in Christ, Tamara
Dear Tamara,
Yes, I also believe that the Holy Spirit is behind all these developments in the Philippines which was heralded as "a  historic moment in the history of the Patriarchate of Antioch and the Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand."



 

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filipiniana said:
Yes time will come and you will see Antiochian priests giving Holy Communion to both "Greek" Filipino Orthodox and Filipino "Antiochian" Orthodox in the Annunciation Parish in Manila.   There are only three Filipino Orthodox priests (and 1 Greek Vicar) under the EP in the Philippines at the moment. Antiochian priests will be sent to "Greek" Filipino Orthodox parishes that are without regular priests (as many of the parishes and missions under EP in the Philippines are without parish priests and even lay missionaries).
If such cooperation between the two jurisdictions would work out, it would be glorious.

You might find these things "hard to accept"  but you will see all of these things being fulfilled in your time.
What's "hard to accept" is the fact that Antioch appointed a NON-ORTHODOX as its vicar in the Philippines, which is a blow to the morale of the Orthodox faithful living in the country.  I mean, several hundred Filipinos have been Orthodox for years and an evangelical is appointed as vicar?!

It also makes it rather awkward for the EP vicar, a Greek Orthodox, to discuss leadership matters with an Evangelical--someone who has not even taken the Eucharist.  

This is not a very good precedent in my opinion.

Filipiniana, at this point, you have not answered my question.  Please let me know if you have been baptized/chrismated already.

 

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Theognosis said:
If such cooperation between the two jurisdictions would work out, it would be glorious.

Filipiniana, at this point, you have not answered my question.  Please let me know if you have been baptized/chrismated already.
Yes brother, I have been Chrismated Orthodox even before your Parish in Sucat, Metro Manila was established.  Sorry for my late reply.
 

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Theognosis said:
What's "hard to accept" is the fact that Antioch appointed a NON-ORTHODOX as its vicar in the Philippines, which is a blow to the morale of the Orthodox faithful living in the country.  I mean, several hundred Filipinos have been Orthodox for years and an evangelical is appointed as vicar?!

It also makes it rather awkward for the EP vicar, a Greek Orthodox, to discuss leadership matters with an Evangelical--someone who has not even taken the Eucharist. 

This is not a very good precedent in my opinion.
Where do you get this idea that Antioch would do something so uncanonical as to appoint someone who is not CURRENTLY Orthodox to be its vicar anywhere?  This truly is bad precedent IF they have, but I somehow suspect that we don't know the whole story and that we may find that the allegation you're passing along is nothing but scuttlebutt.  Can you tell us where you got your information on the Antiochian vicar in the Philippines?
 

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filipiniana said:
Yes brother, I have been Chrismated Orthodox even before your Parish in Sucat, Metro Manila was established.  Sorry for my late reply.
Thank you. Now I know why you are so excited about the recent development.  You may have had unpleasant experiences in the past, and that you may be praying that the situation in the Philippines improve dramatically when Antioch extends its helping hand to Constantinople.

 

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Theognosis said:
Thank you. Now I know why you are so excited about the recent development.  You may have had unpleasant experiences in the past, and that you may be praying that the situation in the Philippines improve dramatically when Antioch extends its helping hand to Constantinople.
We are not perfect, our leaders are not perfect, and as humans, all of us are prone to commit mistakes, lots of mistakes. We as Orthodox Christians are brothers in one family so we must always help one another, strenghten each other in the faith and strive to be united at all times. I'm deeply sorry brother  if my previous post has caused you much pain. May God have mercy on us and bless us.


 

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Theognosis said:
......you may be praying that the situation in the Philippines improve dramatically when Antioch extends its helping hand to Constantinople.

We would like to thank everyone who has offered their Prayer for the Coming of More Orthodox Missionaries to the Philippines . We are now witnessing the fruits of your fervent prayers through God's mercy and blessing.



"Let us love one another, so that with one mind we may confess: The Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
the Trinity, one in essence and undivided."
-Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom


sohma_hatori said:
:'(As God,by grace, hadrevealed to St. Cornelius the teachings of the truth, I, a Catholic dearly and humbly plead you to please pray for our country the Philippines, that it may receive more missionaries who will come and spread the Orthodox Faith,so that we may be baptized to the true Church...

:'(Please pray that this may come to pass. Please offer itasan intentionwhen you celebrate The Divine Liturgy,asI shall continue to ask the Good Lord that His Church may come to us..

In the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit

jlerms said:
May you realize your prayers for yourself and all others there in the Phillipines.

Juliana

Heorhij said:
Lord, strengthen Thy servants in doing Thy work in the Philippines!

ozgeorge said:
May God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

FrChris said:
Lord have mercy!

cleveland said:
Lord, have mercy!

 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Where do you get this idea that Antioch would do something so uncanonical as to appoint someone who is not CURRENTLY Orthodox to be its vicar anywhere?  This truly is bad precedent IF they have, but I somehow suspect that we don't know the whole story and that we may find that the allegation you're passing along is nothing but scuttlebutt.  Can you tell us where you got your information on the Antiochian vicar in the Philippines?
That is what I have been told by my priest.  Filipiniana can either reject or confirm this information.

Either way, I have to learn to respect the decision of Antioch.  I will pray for the conversion of more Filipinos and ask forgiveness and mercy from our Lord.
 

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Theognosis said:
That is what I have been told by my priest.  Filipiniana can either reject or confirm this information.

Either way, I have to learn to respect the decision of Antioch.  I will pray for the conversion of more Filipinos and ask forgiveness and mercy from our Lord.

An honest mistake based on assumption by the priest perhaps?  I don't know if the priest (or the EP Vicar)  has been corresponding directly with the "Vicar" for the Filipino Orthodox under Antioch or with the Primate in Australia. Did the "Vicar" told him so (ie., that he has not been Chrimated yet)? Did the Antiochian Primate in Australia said so?  When the first Filipino Orthodox converts were received into Orthodoxy, it was the leader of the community who got Chrismated first and the rest followed after some time.  What if leader or leaders of the Evangelical group requested the Primate that all ~6,000 of them be Chrismated at the same time in the Philippines by the Antiochian Primate  and/or  by the Patriarch of Antioch himself?  That would be a glorious event in Philippine history!


The Apostle Saint Peter​


"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles."
Acts 2:41-43​


 
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To Everyone,

Mabuhay! I have been monitoring your discussion and I would say that everyone has it's own point of view and has it's own understanding of this so called "Conversions in the Philippines"... from the title of the discussion persei it seems that everyone does not really know if the said 6,000 figures of Evangelicals and member of Catholic Patriarchate of the East were already chrismated or so their leaders, namely Msgr. Jeptah Aniceto and Rev. Pascualito (Father Yitzak as mentioned by His Eminence Paul in his email to me).

Before anything else I would like to inform you that I am an Orthodox Christian in the Philippines living in Kalookan City one city away from Msgr. Jeptah and Rev. Pascualito and three or four cities away from the Greek Orthodox Church in Annunciation. I was chrismated by the time of Fr. Philemon and Fr. Kleopas by the named of John after John the Baptist

Now, my understanding on this matter is not about jurisdiction or membership or squabbling over a big piece of land that for centuries has been occupied and politically and spiritually damaged by different cultures and denominations. IT'S ABOUT VIOLATING THE CANONS OF THE CHURCH JUST EVEN THE 85 CANONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES... Article 33-35...

I am just wondering with this long thread none of you have touched the policy and rules of our Church which was set forth by the Great Church Fathers of the Church as what St. Paul also said that there may be order in the Church.

I does not matter who violated first it's about who followed the canons... and does it make the Church to be canonical.

Let me say about the Antiochian in the Philippines, this is neither to defend the EP nor to insult the Antiochian Arch. of Ausralia and Oceania etc....

I am in communication with Met. Paul and I have a copy of the e-mail and my reason for writing him is to seek reception because that would be the nearest Orthodox Church in our place...

But I was disappointed that the two (Jeptah and Pascualito) were made Vicar even if they were not Orthodox and entrusted me to tem and the worst.. They approve the Qurbana Kadisha something and allowed the two to continue on their own liturgical style... now I have arguments here:

If they were received already by Met. Paul, how? thru Chrismation? If yes, why they still bear their title as Reverend and Monsignor and wearing a white collar in front of an Orthodox priest?

Why they were still allowed to practice their own rite? Does this mean that anyone who has his own liturgical rite can continue for as long he is under an Orthodox bishop? Instead of the Typka Service?

And if indeed if Arch. Paul is in communication with the Greek Bishop in Hong Kong should he not entrusted first the said inquirers instead of accepting them and pronouncing himself as Primate of Australia and Oceania and Philippines? When we say Philippines encompassing the three main islands, Luzon , Visayas and Mindanao...

I do not question the sincerity of His Eminence Paul but the process... then again, we need to go back to the Canons... what does the Canons says about it getting into another city or country which has established Orthodox Church already.

The Philippines is very big and for sure the Greek Church cannot do it alone but putting another jurisdiction which we know will have a negative effect in the future just what is happening in America, Canada, Australia and other new lands... overlapping of jurisdictions...

If the Greek Church is lack of priest because money or people then other Churches can help on that by providing training and assistance to those baptized individuals under the EP and for me that is the true nature of brotherhood ad unity in faith and not the hypocrisy than we are all one and yet at the backdoor like this discussion praise people but not Christ... let his Church be in shame... Hierarchs to Hierarchs... we as laity have the responsibility to tell out Hierarchs this kind of disheartening event... glory of who’s Archdiocese? What’s next... the Russian, the Serbians? Who else?

Yes, Philippines is for sale... my only thought is that we should act according to our conscience and meaning of true love and unity guided by the Seven Ecumenical Councils. the reason why our Churches seems to be no different at all to other Churches and accepted others as sister Church and the other lung.... have we forsaken the Church Fathers... abandon the Patristic teachings?


I am not a perfect man; just like you... sinners and hoping to be forgive by Christ and find refuge in His Church!


John

 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Where do you get this idea that Antioch would do something so uncanonical as to appoint someone who is not CURRENTLY Orthodox to be its vicar anywhere?  This truly is bad precedent IF they have, but I somehow suspect that we don't know the whole story and that we may find that the allegation you're passing along is nothing but scuttlebutt.  Can you tell us where you got your information on the Antiochian vicar in the Philippines?
Can anyone here give a link to an official source verifying that a representative of the Antiochian Patriarchate did indeed appoint a non-Orthodox to be his vicar in the Philippines?  I've now seen two posters on this thread assert this, but without official verification.  To my understanding, this kind of appointment is a canonical offense of such serious nature (if the allegations prove true) that unsubstantiated accusations of this on an internet forum could be considered gossip.  I don't want this thread or this forum to be a vehicle for such scuttlebutt, so please someone offer us official corroboration of these rumors, or let us all stop spreading them.
 

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Thank you John for your perspective.

Are these people using their own liturgical rite or a Rite of another Church (Tridentine Mass, Syriac Qurbana, etc)?
 

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Welcome to the forum, John!
 

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Are you for real Mr. John?  I don't know anyone from the Annunciation Sucat Parish  by the name of John who resides at Caloocan City. Please note you mispelled Caloocan to Kalookan. Everyone from Caloocan City knows that their City is spelled Caloocan not Kalookan.  Please be more careful with what you say or write next time.



Islas Filipinas said:
To Everyone,

Mabuhay! I have been monitoring your discussion and I would say that everyone has it's own point of view and has it's own understanding of this so called "Conversions in the Philippines"... from the title of the discussion persei it seems that everyone does not really know if the said 6,000 figures of Evangelicals and member of Catholic Patriarchate of the East were already chrismated or so their leaders, namely Msgr. Jeptah Aniceto and Rev. Pascualito (Father Yitzak as mentioned by His Eminence Paul in his email to me).

Before anything else I would like to inform you that I am an Orthodox Christian in the Philippines living in Kalookan City one city away from Msgr. Jeptah and Rev. Pascualito and three or four cities away from the Greek Orthodox Church in Annunciation. I was chrismated by the time of Fr. Philemon and Fr. Kleopas by the named of John after John the Baptist........................


I am not a perfect man; just like you... sinners and hoping to be forgive by Christ and find refuge in His Church!


John
 

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filipiniana said:
Are you for real Mr. John?  I don't know anyone from the Annunciation Sucat Parish  by the name of John who resides at Caloocan City. Please note you mispelled Caloocan to Kalookan. Everyone from Caloocan City knows that their City is spelled Caloocan not Kalookan.  Please be more careful with what you say or write next time.
You are questioning the credibility of a person because of his spelling?  You could have been a little bit more forgiving than that. 

I really don't know what your intentions are, filipiniana.  I really don't.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
To my understanding, this kind of appointment is a canonical offense of such serious nature (if the allegations prove true) that unsubstantiated accusations of this on an internet forum could be considered gossip.
Are you accusing me and John of spreading gossip?  Please clarify.
 

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Anastasios said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalookan

Wikipedia says both spellings are accepted...of course, Wikipedia is not infallible :)
This is nothing but an attempt to divert our attention.  Nonetheless...

http://sangandaan.net/sangandaan/kalookan.html

AUTHOR'S NOTE OF THE USE OF THE "K's" AND THE "C's" IN SPELLING THE NAME OF THE CITY

The observant reader will notice the seemingly interchangeable use of "Caloocan" (with two "C's") and "Kalookan" (with two "K's") in the different articles contained in this book.  Those using "C's" were generally written before July 28, 1970.  On that date, the Municipal Board enacted Resolution No. 106, requesting all department heads thenceforth to use the letter "K" instead of "C" in spelling the name of the city.  The move was inspired by the wave of nationalism that engulfed the nation in the late 1960's.  The Anglo-Spanish letter in a name that was obviously indigenous smacked of the snobbishness of the colonial master that made him write cauayan instead of kawayan, to give just one example.

Surprisingly, it was the courts and the fiscal's office that led the other departments in complying with the resolution.  School authorities refused to honor it (they still do), arguing that "C's" in a proper noun are not changed to "K's" when written in Pilipino.  The fallacy of this assertion is that "Kalookan" is the proper noun, and the "K's" are not changed to "C's" when written in English.  At any rate, ours is the only city in the country that is written in two different ways.  If only for uniformity, it is urged that the correct spelling be used by all.

It will probably take much longer than a decade to achieve total compliance, but the progress so far made is encouraging.

City of Kalookan, 1981
The Author
 

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Islas Filipinas said:
If they were received already by Met. Paul, how? thru Chrismation? If yes, why they still bear their title as Reverend and Monsignor and wearing a white collar in front of an Orthodox priest?
This is common practice to use these terms in the Antiochian Patriarchate when they are translated into English. The term Monsignor is used in the Western Rite Vicarate of the Archdiocese in North America from where Met. Paul was a priest for many years. Reverend is used in front of everyone of the official English titles of the Clergy in the Patriarchate when translated into English...

Right Reverend - For Bishop and Archimandrites
Reverend Father - for Presbyters
Very Reverend Father - for Protopresbyters
Reverend Deacon - for Deacons

This is also the practice of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I have personally received correspondence from them as Reverend Subdeacon.

Why they were still allowed to practice their own rite? Does this mean that anyone who has his own liturgical rite can continue for as long he is under an Orthodox bishop? Instead of the Typka Service?
There is liturgical diversity in Orthodoxy. The Patriarchate of Antioch allows for two different Western Rite forms along with the typical Byzantine form.

And if indeed if Arch. Paul is in communication with the Greek Bishop in Hong Kong should he not entrusted first the said inquirers instead of accepting them and pronouncing himself as Primate of Australia and Oceania and Philippines? When we say Philippines encompassing the three main islands, Luzon , Visayas and Mindanao...

I do not question the sincerity of His Eminence Paul but the process... then again, we need to go back to the Canons... what does the Canons says about it getting into another city or country which has established Orthodox Church already.
If we go back to the canons then Met. Paul as a Bishop sitting on the Synod of the Patriarchate of Antioch and all the EAST is responsible for whatever territory such Synod would entrust him with since this is the traditional and canonical jurisdiction of his Patriarchate.
 

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Theognosis said:
Are you accusing me and John of spreading gossip?  Please clarify.
All I ask is for official backing of any allegations that Antiochian bishops engaged in such a serious canonical violation as to appoint heterodox to be "clergy" before they were received formally into the Church.  Without this validation such accusations are little more than rumor-mongering.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
All I ask is for official backing of any allegations that Antiochian bishops engaged in such a serious canonical violation as to appoint heterodox to be "clergy" before they were received formally into the Church.  Without this validation such accusations are little more than rumor-mongering.
It should be enough that the picture of this heterodox "vicar" appears above the bank account number where you're supposed to send your donations.



If I am wrong, then ban me.
 

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"If I am wrong, then ban me."

What is that supposed to mean? Why the confrontational nature? We have a responsibility to verify claims like this. People have posted inaccurate things before and it causes problems. So we take that seriously.

 

arimethea

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Theognosis said:
It should be enough that the picture of this heterodox "vicar" appears above the bank account number where you're supposed to send your donations.
Maybe I am wrong but this announcement and asking for donations is being made so that they can properly bring these groups in. Where are you getting this information that these men have been made "Vicars"? No where does the word "Vicar" appear in the sources you have provided us with. All that is being asked for is the source, no one is questioning your honesty.
 

Anastasios

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I don't see anything about a vicar in that advertisement. I see a notice that some people are joining the Antiochian Church, a pic of the leader of the group, and a request for money to help their relief efforts.
 

PeterTheAleut

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I don't even know the leader pictured in the advertisement, so the picture is all I have from which to draw conclusions.  Nothing in the picture or surrounding text even remotely indicates the man's background; therefore, I can conclude nothing about him.

Theognosis, I'm not accusing you of anything, so please don't feel you need to defend yourself against me.  I just want to make sure our public claims of hierarchical misdeeds are verifiable and accurate.
 

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Anastasios said:
"If I am wrong, then ban me."

What is that supposed to mean? Why the confrontational nature? We have a responsibility to verify claims like this. People have posted inaccurate things before and it causes problems. So we take that seriously.
Shouldn't you take it seriously when people accuse you of rumor-mongering and spreading gossip?
 

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arimethea said:
Maybe I am wrong but this announcement and asking for donations is being made so that they can properly bring these groups in.
Would you know the owner of the bank account number?  If the person in the picture gets the donation, then he's the leader, i.e. vicar.

Where are you getting this information that these men have been made "Vicars"?
I've already answered that question even before I posted the image.

No where does the word "Vicar" appear in the sources you have provided us with. All that is being asked for is the source, no one is questioning your honesty.
Someone who is not Orthodox couldn't be a vicar, thus "vicar".
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
I just want to make sure our public claims of hierarchical misdeeds are verifiable and accurate.
I am just stating the facts.  You are the one asserting that there were hierarchical misdeeds should my statements prove to be valid.
 

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Anastasios said:
I don't see anything about a vicar in that advertisement. I see a notice that some people are joining the Antiochian Church, a pic of the leader of the group,
Read between the lines.  The person in the picture is definitely important, and the fact that the article does not mention his name or title is an indication that something is not right.

Anastasios said:
and a request for money to help their relief efforts.
They should ask for prayers, not money.  It's another bad precedent in my opinion.
 

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Theognosis said:
Someone who is not Orthodox couldn't be a vicar, thus "vicar".
Maybe this is a language issue so let me try and figure out what you are saying...

Are you calling this person the "vicar" because he is the leader of this group wishing to come into the Church?

or

Is Met. Paul calling this person the Vicar in his correspondence with you?

or

Is someone else calling this person the "vicar" and you are using their terminology? (If this is the case please provide your source then)

or

Something else that I didn't think of and if this is the case can you please explain.
 
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