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Conversions in Philipines

PeterTheAleut

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GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
Most of the names of the people presented on the site as depicted in the image above don't even have an idea of what is actually going on. In short, they have been presented on here without even knowing what is it all about. almost everything was a lie.
Referring you to something Fr. Anastasios said above:

Fr. Anastasios said:
But if there is anything going on that is bad then there needs to be some documented proof: photos; video interviews; letters.
For you to assert that almost everything presented here is a lie, you need to first be able to present to us the truth, together with documented proof as described above.
 
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PeterTheAleut said:
Referring you to something Fr. Anastasios said above:

For you to assert that almost everything presented here is a lie, you need to first be able to present to us the truth, together with documented proof as described above.
I answered it already. I will not drag the details and evidences right on this board. I have reasons not to do so.
I will just wait for the right person whom I can entrust these informations to and who wouldn't jeopardize my identity once the informations are  out. 
 

PeterTheAleut

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GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
I answered it already. I will not drag the details and evidences right on this board. I have reasons not to do so.
I will just wait for the right person whom I can entrust these informations to and who wouldn't jeopardize my identity once the informations are  out. 
Then I'll repeat something else Fr. Anastasios, our site owner, said.

Fr. Anastasios said:
I would suggest that making a post saying you know the truth but aren't going to discuss it on here is worse than just saying what you know. It's going to make people wonder more.interviews; letters.
Why are you here telling us that things are not as they appear when you refuse to tell us what is really going on when you are asked to do so?
 

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GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
What's the use of the TRUTH when it is laced with lies? Figures (did they say 6000?), numbers, locations and people can merely be drawings. It can be made even picture-perfect to draw funds. I heard His Eminence Paul came over to the Philippines but I doubt if he was able to see for himself if those churches and 6,000 people actually exist. I won't be here and talking empty if I don't know anything about this. I personally do know something but it won't be good to discuss this right on here. As much as I believe the church nor its leaders shouldn't be judgmental of anyone's motives and intentions in serving God, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve Him.
You dont make sense... If you didnt want your identity to be damaged or whatever, why did you come to this forum then?  ???
 

filipiniana

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GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
I am weighing the options of bringing the details on here or not. I have the knowledge and I have the evidences. Right now, I am trying to look for the right person whom I can approach with these or a person who can help me bring this matter to His Eminence in Australia without jeopardizing my identity and the people around me. As much as I am vigilant about this, I have to consider our safety. I know the people involve, they have connections to other people in power here. Anything can happen.

Just a piece of brotherly advice; you must write directly to the  Orthodox Primate of the Philippines, His Eminence Archbishop Paul Saliba. He is the right person to approach regarding your concerns. If you no longer trust the local leaders of your Church then go to His Eminence.


GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
Most of the names of the people presented on the site as depicted in the image above don't even have an idea of what is actually going on. In short, they have been presented on here without even knowing what is it all about. almost everything was a lie.
It sounds that you are very familiar with the people under the Davao Vicariate under the Orthodox Vicar Bishop Jeptah Aniceto.  If your allegations can be substantiated then report them to His Eminence Archbishop Paul Saliba.   As far as I'm concerned, the Manila Vicariate under Vicar Bishop Yitzak has no such problem or controversies within his jurisdiction.


GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
What's the use of the TRUTH when it is laced with lies? Figures (did they say 6000?), numbers, locations and people can merely be drawings. It can be made even picture-perfect to draw funds. I heard His Eminence Paul came over to the Philippines but I doubt if he was able to see for himself if those churches and 6,000 people actually exist. I won't be here and talking empty if I don't know anything about this. I personally do know something but it won't be good to discuss this right on here. As much as I believe the church nor its leaders shouldn't be judgmental of anyone's motives and intentions in serving God, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve Him.
Thank you for expressing your concerns. For me these concerns of yours should not be ignored. If there are problems with the leadership in the Davao Viacariate then the Orthodox Primate of the Philippines should be informed immediately. He should be the first man to be aware of these problems and controversies. Instead of reporting your observations and concerns here in the discussion board you must go through the right channels. Otherwise people would think that you are only spreading gossips and hearsay through this discussion board.   Write His Eminence now and tell him everything. Only then you can get the proper solution to your problems and concerns.  May the merciful God and Savior Jesus Christ give you the strength to fulfill this  noble task.


P.S. I have yet to see the "6,000" Filipino Orthodox in Davao, Western and Central Visayas under Vicar Bishop Jeptah Aniceto. A single picture showing a thousand member will suffice.  As the saying goes; "To see is to believe".  I think Sohma_hatori can tell us something if there are literally "6,000" Filipino Orthodox in that area of the Philippines. ;D  So far, as of this writing, the Davao Vicariate has not published a single photograph of their communities, missions or churches verifying their alleged "6,000"  Orthodox converts. Not a single photograph is posted in the official website of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines. Isn't that wonderful? Therefore, I believe our brother or sister GodIsGoodHeSavesMe is telling the truth.  Yes "figures , numbers, locations and people can merely be drawings. It can be made even picture-perfect."


 

sohma_hatori

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filipiniana said:
P.S. I have yet to see the "6,000" Filipino Orthodox in Davao, Western and Central Visayas under Vicar Bishop Jeptah Aniceto. A single picture showing a thousand member will suffice.  As the saying goes; "To see is to believe".  I think Sohma_hatori can tell us something if there are literally "6,000" Filipino Orthodox in that area of the Philippines. ;D  So far, as of this writing, the Davao Vicariate has not published a single photograph of their communities, missions or churches verifying their alleged "6,000"  Orthodox converts. Not a single photograph is posted in the official website of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines. Isn't that wonderful? Therefore, I believe our brother or sister GodIsGoodHeSavesMe is telling the truth.  Yes "figures , numbers, locations and people can merely be drawings. It can be made even picture-perfect."
Well, (do correct me if im wrong), but insofar as my knowledge is concerned, a majority of these "6000" aren't Orthodox yet, (like myself)..
Most of them, like members of the community in Bislig City, are still cathecumens and are preparing for their chrismation into the Holy Church. Fr. Jeph is having a hard time organizing the missions due to logistics and other resources.

I do not know however about the communities in Western Visayas.
God bless the Church in the Philippines!


 

filipiniana

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sohma_hatori said:
Well, (do correct me if im wrong), but insofar as my knowledge is concerned, a majority of these "6000" aren't Orthodox yet, (like myself)..
Most of them, like members of the community in Bislig City, are still cathecumens and are preparing for their chrismation into the Holy Church. Fr. Jeph is having a hard time organizing the missions due to logistics and other resources.

I do not know however about the communities in Western Visayas.
God bless the Church in the Philippines!
Thanks for the valuable input Sohma_hatori. There seems to be conflicting reports regarding the actual or real figures of Orthodox converts or members in the Philippines under the Antiochian Orthodox Primate based in Australia. The Orthodox WIKI reported  on 25th May 2008 that:

"The Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand has accepted two denominations in the Philippines into the Archdiocese, including over 30 religious leaders and 31 churches with ~6000 adherents. This has been heralded as a "historic moment in the history of the Patriarchate of Antioch and the Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand", and has prompted a change of name to reflect the breadth of the Archdiocese, being renamed to include 'Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines', with Met. Abp. Paul as primate of all three."

Please see Recent Events, Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines

The presence of approximately "6,000 adherents" in the Philippines as reported  justified the "change of name" or honorary "title" of the Antiochian Orthodox hierarch in Australia as  Orthodox "Primate" of the Philippines.  Without these "6,000"  adherents which were reported to have been already "accepted" do you think the so called "change of name" or title of the Metropolitan based in Australia as "Primate" of the Philippines is still justifiable?  I don't think so.  How can a Hierarch calls himself canonically as "Primate" if he has less than 500 adherents?

Is it canonical or fair to call or even consider a certain Hierarch  "Primate" if he has less than 500 Chrismated members?  As fas as I am concerned, the Greek Orthodox  Metropolitan of  Hong Kong and South East Asia (E.P) under which the Filipino Orthodox  in Paranaque, Laguna, Masbate and elsewhere belong did not took pride nor boasted  the title of "Primate of the Philippines" due to the fact that he has less than a thousand Filipino adherents in the Philippines.   

I'm not saying that the Antiochian Hierarch should drop the title outright but I am questioning its validity due to the questionable and conflicting reports on the actual number or figures of Orthodox converts or adherents under the Antiochian jurisdiction in the Philippines.  Therefore, GodisGoodHeSavesMe statements and allegations still holds water (i.e., that "figures , numbers, locations and people can merely be drawings. It can be made even picture-perfect").  Its indeed necessary to make a reality check.





 
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sohma_hatori said:
Well, (do correct me if im wrong), but insofar as my knowledge is concerned, a majority of these "6000" aren't Orthodox yet, (like myself)..
Most of them, like members of the community in Bislig City, are still cathecumens and are preparing for their chrismation into the Holy Church. Fr. Jeph is having a hard time organizing the missions due to logistics and other resources.

I do not know however about the communities in Western Visayas.
God bless the Church in the Philippines!
There weren't even a 50 cathecumens in the Mindanao. I wish they will be going to send people to verify all these so called cathechumens. With all the documents at hand right now, I am bringing this to His Eminence. 
 

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GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
There weren't even a 50 cathecumens in the Mindanao. I wish they will be going to send people to verify all these so called cathechumens. With all the documents at hand right now, I am bringing this to His Eminence. 
So it appears now that the  present Vicar just made us believe that he has thousands of followers but in fact has only less than a hundred cathecumens!  So that's the reason why there is not even a single photograph of the so-called "6,000"  Filipino adherents which was reported in May 2008  as already  received into the Antiochian jurisdiction, hence, making the Antiochian Archbishop  based in Australia the Orthodox "Primate"  of the Philippines. Yes, do bring this up to His Eminence.

To my knowledge, His Eminence made his pastoral visit only to the very small Antiochian Orthodox communities in Luzon under Vicar Yitzak.  Its also wonderful why this historic pastoral visit to the Philippines was not even published in the official website of the Antiochian Archdiocese of Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines. Was the Greek Orthodox Vicar of Manila even informed of the pastoral visit?  I don't think so. As far as I know the two haven't met yet nor even communicated by phone. Where is Orthodox brotherhood if not even a courtesy call was given to an Orthodox leader of the country being visited  ???  The leaders are the one's who should show good examples for emulation. There is really something wrong going on and its a shame!

Thank you again for bringing this up. Our Filipino Orthodox (EP) friends in Manila should also be aware of this very timely expose of yours. May God strengthen you more.

For our foreign viewers, the Mindanao island is the southern main island of the Philippine archipelago  where the Antiochian Vicariate of Davao (and the reported "6,000" adherents) is located:


Image of Mindanao from the Wikipedia

 

filipiniana

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sohma_hatori said:
Hey..

I'll be chrismated this month...  :-\
a lot of problems have risen though...
I'm already aware of the  problems and anomalies. Welcome to the world of Orthodoxy! Please continue praying for God's guidance.
 
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sohma_hatori said:
actually, i was efering to parental problems.. especially that papa is against my chrismation..

what concerns and anomalies did you have in mind?
Hello Sohma. Like you, I want to belong to the  orthodoxy as well. Unfortunately, I know the person
involve in this issue more than you know him. I am a sheep that has refused to be led by a person who founded his ordination and ministry in lies and deception. And believe me, its wiser to heed your father's advice for now (as I see it, you are 16 in your profile).  If in time, there will be a Sheppard who lives with what he preaches and will lead me to the light of true faith... I WILL NOT HESITATE to be an orthodox. I am actually praying for strength in fighting for the truth. God bless you and please include me in your prayers.
 

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GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
sohma_hatori said:
actually, i was efering to parental problems.. especially that papa is against my chrismation..

what concerns and anomalies did you have in mind?
Hello Sohma. Like you, I want to belong to the  orthodoxy as well. Unfortunately, I know the person
involve in this issue more than you know him. I am a sheep that has refused to be led by a person who founded his ordination and ministry in lies and deception. And believe me, its wiser to heed your father's advice for now (as I see it, you are 16 in your profile).  If in time, there will be a Sheppard who lives with what he preaches and will lead me to the light of true faith... I WILL NOT HESITATE to be an orthodox. I am actually praying for strength in fighting for the truth. God bless you and please include me in your prayers.
I would have to agree with GodIsGoodHeSavesMe. This is not the right time for you Sohma to join a group whose present leaders are involved in various anomalies. Please be patient and wait for better times. Again, pray for God's guidance.

 

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sohma_hatori said:
Can you at least make me aware of those anomalies??! I want to know too!!
The anomalies (not all of them) were already mentioned here and it is a shame! Please re-read ALL the posts by GodIsGoodHeSavesMe in this thread. Of course, the few people who are still loyal to the leader (including the anomalous leader himself) will deny them. 

From the beginning of the establishment of the Antiochian jurisdiction in the Philippines you will also see various loopholes and anomalies. If you have been reading this thread from the very start you should have been aware of those anomalies. Hence you see the reactions from the local Orthodox faithful under the EP because they saw them very clearly and realized these shameful things committed by  these leaders or  Orthodox shepherds from the other jurisdiction.  So you should not wonder anymore why both Orthodox jurisdictions are ignoring each other.  Because previously you wrote:

sohma_hatori said:
The troubling fact is that both jurisdictions are IGNORING each other presence here!! Its as if there was never an "agreement" between them! Im already confused as it is, as I am under the guidance of both an EP and Antiochian priest...
Who in his right mind will join such Orthodox groups? So weight things very carefully before deciding to join them.  But don't loose hope for better times are coming. Keep on praying and keep the Orthodox faith.



 

PeterTheAleut

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filipiniana said:
sohma_hatori said:
Can you at least make me aware of those anomalies??! I want to know too!!
The anomalies (not all of them) were already mentioned here and it is a shame!
Already mentioned here, and already argued here from the perspective of your opponents, as well.

Please re-read ALL the posts by GodIsGoodHeSavesMe in this thread.
He who only hints at improprieties but refuses to speak of them in detail when asked...

Of course, the few people who are still loyal to the leader (including the anomalous leader himself) will deny them.
But, reading only what one sees posted here, whom does one trust?

From the beginning of the establishment of the Antiochian jurisdiction in the Philippines you will also see various loopholes and anomalies. If you have been reading this thread from the very start you should have been aware of those anomalies.
Correction:  allegations of anomalies...  Let each reader determine for himself if the allegations have merit.

Hence you see the reactions from the local Orthodox faithful under the EP because they saw them very clearly and realized these shameful things committed by  these leaders or  Orthodox shepherds from the other jurisdiction.  So you should not wonder anymore why both Orthodox jurisdictions are ignoring each other.  Because previously you wrote:

sohma_hatori said:
The troubling fact is that both jurisdictions are IGNORING each other presence here!! Its as if there was never an "agreement" between them! Im already confused as it is, as I am under the guidance of both an EP and Antiochian priest...
Who in his right mind will join such Orthodox groups? So weight things very carefully before deciding to join them.  But don't loose hope for better times are coming. Keep on praying and keep the Orthodox faith.
Yes, please do.  Please gather evidence from both sides before making a judgment and acting upon it.
 

sohma_hatori

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PeterTheAleut, thanks so much for the advises..

As for GodIsGoodHeSavesMe, I believe i now know where you came from. Tell me, where you a vicariate employee, recently fired from your job in the "Bigasan ng Parokya"? Because, if "you were that person", I think I have good reason to doubt the allegations you have posted here, as i spent some time gathering evidence. If you certainly match the person on my mind, your submission of complaints to His Eminence Saliba, may just be some sort of an act of revenge for the vicariate's firing of you. (please correct my grammar if necesarry  :laugh:)

The Archbishop came here a few months ago, and he's coming back on the 4th of October, by which at that time, I will be chrismated and ordained as a sub-deacon. I doubt that he would ever come back to Davao, just to check on parishes and missions, which GodIsGoodHeSavesMe, claims to "NOT EXIST". The Archbishop has seen the Churches and has seen the progress of the misions, it would be totally illogical of him, to forsee the development of missions that "DONT EVEN EXIST"!  :mad:

Im not sure what your getting at, but because of you I certainly did doubt the integrity of the vicar-general, which I now regret having done so (may the Lord forgive me). I agree with PeterTheAleut, that your somebody "who only hints at improprieties but refuses to speak of them in detail when asked...". We dont even know you personally, so defending yourself by saying that you don't want your identity damaged, is out of the questions. If your really intent in divulging the truth, why dont you substantiate your arguments and convince us that indeed, their are serious anomalies in the Davao vicariate?  :mad:

May God have Mercy on our country.
 
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sohma_hatori said:
As for GodIsGoodHeSavesMe, I believe i now know where you came from. Tell me, where you a vicariate employee, recently fired from your job in the "Bigasan ng Parokya"? Because, if "you were that person", I think I have good reason to doubt the allegations you have posted here, as i spent some time gathering evidence. If you certainly match the person on my mind, your submission of complaints to His Eminence Saliba, may just be some sort of an act of revenge for the vicariate's firing of you. (please correct my grammar if necesarry  :laugh:)
I am in no way an employee of Jeptah Aniceto and never was. I can see how he still can lie through his teeth now. The evidence you have at hand is basically a one-sided, it must just be his words against mine. You have heard him but you haven't been into the areas (the supposed churches as listed in that website). Were you able to talk to the people in those areas other than Aniceto? Were you able to talk to  the people whose names were listed on that webpage?

sohma_hatori said:
The Archbishop came here a few months ago, and he's coming back on the 4th of October, by which at that time, I will be chrismated and ordained as a sub-deacon. I doubt that he would ever come back to Davao, just to check on parishes and missions, which GodIsGoodHeSavesMe, claims to "NOT EXIST". The Archbishop has seen the Churches and has seen the progress of the misions, it would be totally illogical of him, to forsee the development of missions that "DONT EVEN EXIST"!  :mad:
The first lie, he used these people just so he have "people" to present to Archbishop few months back. How long did the Archbishop stayed with the congregation? 30mins, an hour? There was a confrontation among the people and Aniceto because most of these people didn't understand what was going on but the Archbishop didn't understand it simply because Aniceto didn't even give anyone a chance to have an open forum with the Archbishop. (posted with permission): Take note.. there are more coming...


sohma_hatori said:
Im not sure what your getting at, but because of you I certainly did doubt the integrity of the vicar-general, which I now regret having done so (may the Lord forgive me). I agree with PeterTheAleut, that your somebody "who only hints at improprieties but refuses to speak of them in detail when asked...". We dont even know you personally, so defending yourself by saying that you don't want your identity damaged, is out of the questions. If your really intent in divulging the truth, why dont you substantiate your arguments and convince us that indeed, their are serious anomalies in the Davao vicariate?  :mad:

May God have Mercy on our country.

He might be able to destroy my integrity as a person and the integrity of the people he fooled here. But he will never be able to destroy the integrity of the TRUTH itself.
 

ozgeorge

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Dear GodIsGoodHeSavesMe & filipiniana,

I'm trying to understand what's going on here, please bear with me.

As I understand it, the Protestant Churches in the Phillipines want to come to Orthodoxy, but have reservations about the method with which it being done. Is this correct?

Also, I understand that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is already in the Phillipines and is "ignoring" the Antiochians.

So why don't the Protestant Churches which have reservations about the Antiochians (but want to come to Orthodoxy) approach the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

George
 

sohma_hatori

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GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
You still don't get it, do you?
What I know, is that your group was excommunicated, with the authority of Metropolitan Paul. I understand that by virtue of that, you are no longer part of the vicariate, or Orthodox for that matter.
You were exaggerating when you said that the Archbishop was only here for 30mins or an 1 hour!  ::) You said in your letter, that you received no financial aid, but during the Archbishop's visit, you DID receive money. You have already been reported by Fr. Aniceto to His Eminence way back 2 months ago, and apparantly he approved of your excommunication.
Because of your behavior, the vicariate was divided, by your mebers who joined you, and those who remained in the Archbishop's care.

In your letter, you don't seem to acknowledge that BEFORE Fr. Aniceto was chrismated and ordained a priest, he was YOUR superior. He was your head bishop if I clearly remeber. Your letter sems to imply, that it was he who YOU accomodated INTO the Church, when it was the other way around!

Also, there MIGHT be some monetary issues revolving around your excommunication..  ;)

To ozgeorge:

The issue with  GodIsGoodHeSavesMe is about, some FORMER members of the Davao vicariate of the Antiochian Church who were dissatisfied with the vicar-general leadership. The EP priest in Mindanao, has toldme that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Philippines now officially recognize, the Antiochian missions as canonical ones. (Whew! Im glad that was fixed!  ;D)
 

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ozgeorge said:
Dear GodIsGoodHeSavesMe & filipiniana,

I'm trying to understand what's going on here, please bear with me.
Dear Mr. George,
I would have to reply to your inquiries since you mentioned my name along with  GodIsGoodHeSavesMe.  I also want to understand thoroughly just what is going on because there is definitely something wrong going on in the Philippines.

ozgeorge said:
As I understand it, the Protestant Churches in the Phillipines want to come to Orthodoxy, but have reservations about the method with which it being done. Is this correct?
As I understand it, the Orthodox Christians  in the Philippines  [EP] have reservations about accepting the former Evangelicals who were seeking entrance into canonical Orthodoxy though the Greek Orthodox jurisdiction.  An objection was even raised here by one of the  EP faithful that these Evangelicals want to become Orthodox "on their own terms" with a "modified" Liturgy  which is totally unacceptable both for the Greek authorities and the native Filipino Orthodox faithful under the Greek Jurisdiction [EP]. Let me quote the exact words here:

Theognosis said:
The voice of the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines must be heard.  We want nothing less than the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Any "modified" liturgy must be rejected, with no compromise.
Now I totally agree with their objections and condemnation of this shameful anomaly! Observers have reported how the Orthodox priests from this jurisdiction conduct their "modified" Liturgy which does not resemble any of the canonical Orthodox liturgical rites or the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Their priests (and even the Vicars themselves) are actually using a "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass with the same unleavened wafers used by the Roman Catholic priests. Their  priests says the Mass exactly the same way Roman Catholic priests "says" them; with Roman Catholic vestments  and the celebrant facing the people and with the congregation singing the same hymns sung in Roman Catholic Masses in the Philippines.   GodIsGoodHeSavesMe and even Soma_hatori can confirm my statement.


ozgeorge said:
Also, I understand that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is already in the Phillipines and is "ignoring" the Antiochians.
So why don't the Protestant Churches which have reservations about the Antiochians (but want to come to Orthodoxy) approach the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
Its not only the clergy and the faithful under the EP in the Philippines who ignores the Antiochians but the Antiochian clergy and faithful themselves ignores the EP clergy and faithful in the Philippines as well (please read Sohma's confirmation of this fact). That they BOTH ignore each other is  evidenced by the absence of  any representatives from the EP during the clandestine pastoral visit(s) of the Primate of the Philippines in Manila, Davao and elsewhere (who knows exactly where? it was never mentioned in their offical website up to this moment!) for the chrismation of its  ??6,000 ??? members and the ordinations of former Evangelical and Independent Catholic clergymen (who knows how many and when they were ordained? it was never mentioned in their official website as well!).  Does that does not even make you wonder??

The Evangelicals have no reservations about the Antiochians because the Antiochians have no reservations about the Evangelicals as evidenced by the "modified" Novus Ordo Roman Catholic Masses they  "say" during their "orthodox" worship.












 

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Dear filipiniana,
Thanks for taking the time to help me to understand what's going on. I still need some clarification though, please bear with me.

filipiniana said:
As I understand it, the Orthodox Christians  in the Philippines  [EP] have reservations about accepting the former Evangelicals who were seeking entrance into canonical Orthodoxy though the Greek Orthodox jurisdiction.  An objection was even raised here by one of the  EP faithful that these Evangelicals want to become Orthodox "on their own terms" with a "modified" Liturgy  which is totally unacceptable both for the Greek authorities and the native Filipino Orthodox faithful under the Greek Jurisdiction [EP]. Let me quote the exact words here:

Theognosis said:
The voice of the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines must be heard.  We want nothing less than the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Any "modified" liturgy must be rejected, with no compromise.
What I don't understand is whether those Evangelicals seeking conversion to Orthodoxy actually want to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It seems they want to use the modified Liturgy. Is there a division between the Evangelicals about which Liturgy to use? If so, couldn't those wishing to use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom join the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and those wanting the modified Liturgy join the Antiochians?
Is the modified Liturgy being imposed by the Antiochians against the will of the Evangelicals? If so, it certainly seems strange to me that a Liturgy based on the RC Novos Ordo should be imposed on former Evangelicals. It doesn't make much sense, and it seems there would be no difference to imposing the DL of St. John Chrysostom anyway.

Theognosis said:
Now I totally agree with their objections and condemnation of this shameful anomaly! Observers have reported how the Orthodox priests from this jurisdiction conduct their "modified" Liturgy which does not resemble any of the canonical Orthodox liturgical rites or the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Their priests (and even the Vicars themselves) are actually using a "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass with the same unleavened wafers used by the Roman Catholic priests. Their  priests says the Mass exactly the same way Roman Catholic priests "says" them; with Roman Catholic vestments  and the celebrant facing the people and with the congregation singing the same hymns sung in Roman Catholic Masses in the Philippines.   GodIsGoodHeSavesMe and even Soma_hatori can confirm my statement.
Am I understanding correctly that the resentment and resistance is about being a Western Rite Church? If so, I have to say that this was not clear until now, even with the letter posted by GodIsGoodHeSavesMe. I think if this is made clearer to Archbishop Paul Saliba, he would be more than happy to accommodate this and get them to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I really think this can be resolved if this is the case. I am willing to help in any way I can to assist in finding a resolution to this which suits all the parties. I am in Australia and under the EP, (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia).


ozgeorge said:
Its not only the clergy and the faithful under the EP in the Philippines who ignores the Antiochians but the Antiochian clergy and faithful themselves ignores the EP clergy and faithful in the Philippines as well (please read Sohma's confirmation of this fact). That they BOTH ignore each other is  evidenced by the absence of  any representatives from the EP during the clandestine pastoral visit(s) of the Primate of the Philippines in Manila, Davao and elsewhere (who knows exactly where? it was never mentioned in their offical website up to this moment!) for the chrismation of its  ??6,000 ??? members and the ordinations of former Evangelical and Independent Catholic clergymen (who knows how many and when they were ordained? it was never mentioned in their official website as well!).  Does that does not even make you wonder??
The simple reality is that the EP tends to be suspicious of Antiochian Western Rites. We don't have any Western Rites in the EP, but we do have less of a problem with ROCOR Western Rite Orthodox Churches than with Antiochian ones. ROCOR WR Churches are perceived as being "more thought out" than Antiochian ones (whether this perception is right or wrong). But at the same time, we also have a great respect for the Antiochian Patriarchate, so there is an "interesting" situation of maintaining Communion while not always agreeing on methods.

ozgeorge said:
The Evangelicals have no reservations about the Antiochians because the Antiochians have no reservations about the Evangelicals as evidenced by the "modified" Novus Ordo Roman Catholic Masses they  "say" during their "orthodox" worship.
Sometimes, I think it actually is better that we ignore things. The reality is that as long as the Antiochians are in Communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, their Western Rite Liturgies are technically Liturgies of the Orthodox Church. Perhaps its better just to leave it at that and ignore the problems we may have with it rather than allow it to become a cause of division. Those Orthodox Christians who wish to use the DL of St. John Chrysotom are free to join jurisdictions which use it, but if the will to use it isn't there, what else can we do?
 

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ozgeorge said:
Dear filipiniana,
Thanks for taking the time to help me to understand what's going on. I still need some clarification though, please bear with me.
Dear Mr. George,
You're most welcome. I'll try to clarify things the best way I can.

ozgeorge said:
What I don't understand is whether those Evangelicals seeking conversion to Orthodoxy actually want to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It seems they want to use the modified Liturgy.
Your observation could be accurate and I agree. But it appears that they want to use the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass than the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom and the re-constructed canonical Western Rite Liturgy of Saint Gregory or Saint Tikhon etc. which are being used by canonical Western Rite Orthodox priests under Russia and Antioch.


ozgeorge said:
Is there a division between the Evangelicals about which Liturgy to use? If so, couldn't those wishing to use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom join the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and those wanting the modified Liturgy join the Antiochians?
I have received letters coming from their faithful which expresses their disapproval of the use this "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite by their priests.  Let me quote one of the said letters  (Note: names have been witheld:


"I had some three instances attending a small community of about 10 people for a sunday mass , these were catholics who thought Fr. ______ as a catholic priest since he introduces the orthodoxy as "Antiochian Orthodox Catholic Church" I know the difference because I had  degree on Religious Studies. But these common people (not regular church goers, he performed it in most rural areas) doesnt know anything about it. They cannot tell the difference because Fr.______ celebrates it in the Roman Catholic Holy Eucharistic Rites. I couldn't just take the lies anymore, I stopped attending.. "


ozgeorge said:
Is the modified Liturgy being imposed by the Antiochians against the will of the Evangelicals? If so, it certainly seems strange to me that a Liturgy based on the RC Novos Ordo should be imposed on former Evangelicals. It doesn't make much sense, and it seems there would be no difference to imposing the DL of St. John Chrysostom anyway.
Sorry, I don't have any reports which says that this modified ROman Catholic Novus Ordo  Rite of the Mass is being imposed by Antioch against the will of the Filipino Orthodox priests under their jurisdiction.

ozgeorge said:
Am I understanding correctly that the resentment and resistance is about being Western Rite Church? If so, I have to say that this was not clear until now....
The resentment and resistance in the Greek [EP] side is not the issue of being "Western Rite" but the use of the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass which has no place in canonical Orthdox worship. Things will be less complicated if priests from this jurisdiction will use the approved Western Rite Liturgies, or better, the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.



 

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filipiniana said:
The resentment and resistance in the Greek [EP] side is not the issue of being "Western Rite" but the use of the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass which has no place in canonical Orthdox worship. Things will be less complicated if priests from this jurisdiction will use the approved Western Rite Liturgies, or better, the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.
Thank you, this clarifies the position tremendously for me!
So the issue, I understand, is not simply that it is Western Rite, but rather, that it appears deceptive in a predominantly Roman Catholic country to have an Orthodox Church which looks exactly like a Roman Catholic Church.
I think that many European Orthodox Churches can understand this concern, because it echoes their experience with Eastern Rite Catholic Churches in their own counties which look exactly like Orthodox Churches, but are in fact not in Communion with the Orthodox Church, but rather with the Vatican.
I think this needs to be made clear to His Eminence, Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Thank you, this clarifies the position tremendously for me!
So the issue, I understand, is not simply that it is Western Rite, but rather, that it appears deceptive in a predominantly Roman Catholic country to have an Orthodox Church which looks exactly like a Roman Catholic Church................I think this needs to be made clear to His Eminence, Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba.
I understand that this is no longer an "issue" because according to Sohma the Greek [EP] side has also accepted as canonical the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass which the Filipino priests under Antioch use in their "orthodox" worship. Please refer to Sohma's recent post which seems to imply that  fact:

sohma_hatori said:
To ozgeorge:
The EP priest in Mindanao, has toldme that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Philippines now officially recognize, the Antiochian missions as canonical ones. (Whew! Im glad that was fixed!
;D)
Hence, there should no longer be "resentments" and "resistance" on both sides from now on (if this is true?) and clergymen and faithful from the Greek (EP) side should now be invited and present during every "Primate of the Philippines" pastoral visits in the country which from now on should not be held clandestinely and that details of chrismations and ordinations in the Philippines should now be published in the official website of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia.

The main issue now is this and please find time to read it carefully all over it again:

GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:

I am in no way an employee of Jeptah Aniceto and never was. I can see how he still can lie through his teeth now. The evidence you have at hand is basically a one-sided, it must just be his words against mine. You have heard him but you haven't been into the areas (the supposed churches as listed in that website). Were you able to talk to the people in those areas other than Aniceto? Were you able to talk to  the people whose names were listed on that webpage?

The first lie, he used these people just so he have "people" to present to Archbishop few months back. How long did the Archbishop stayed with the congregation? 30mins, an hour? There was a confrontation among the people and Aniceto because most of these people didn't understand what was going on but the Archbishop didn't understand it simply because Aniceto didn't even give anyone a chance to have an open forum with the Archbishop. (posted with permission): Take note.. there are more coming...





He might be able to destroy my integrity as a person and the integrity of the people he fooled here. But he will never be able to destroy the integrity of the TRUTH itself.
This is the real "issue" now.  Thank you GodIsGoodHeSavesMe for taking the courage to expose these anomalies; the lies and deceptions. May God strengthen you more in this noble undertaking. I will be praying for you and Pastor Abraham Igar. Brethren and friends, please pray for them.




 
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sohma_hatori said:
What I know, is that your group was excommunicated, with the authority of Metropolitan Paul. I understand that by virtue of that, you are no longer part of the vicariate, or Orthodox for that matter.
You really don't have an idea who I am, right? I have not been chrismated yet so there is no sense in pushing about me being excommunicated by the Metropolitan Paul. You must be referring to Igar, but well.. thanks because I found out, if Aniceto did excommunicated him it must have been after  Igar  declined to be a part of Aniceto's plan when  WE SAW how he has been doing things around here. FYI, it was Aniceto who have been begging me to support him and be chrismated (because he knows he can use me if I agreed) even long before I met the so called "excommunicados" and yes, he can have the pleasure to term me as excommunicado as well. And so do you. I was hesitant because I know him personally. If he could lie to me, he could lie to anyone else, he could lie to his mom then he could lie to you and to the orthodoxy. I came out because I couldn't take the lies anymore.

sohma_hatori said:
You were exaggerating when you said that the Archbishop was only here for 30mins or an 1 hour!
were you here when the installation happened?  were you here when the confrontation happened while Archbishop Paul was around?

sohma_hatori said:
You said in your letter, that you received no financial aid, but during the Archbishop's visit, you DID receive money. You have already been reported by Fr. Aniceto to His Eminence way back 2 months ago, and apparantly he approved of your excommunication.
This was just a strategy made by Aniceto to save himself from any  future legal confrontations AFTER I withdrew any support from him and sensing how Igar has been slowly declining supporting him.

sohma_hatori said:
Because of your behavior, the vicariate was divided, by your mebers who joined you, and those who remained in the Archbishop's care.
It was divided because I have spoken the truth.

sohma_hatori said:
In your letter, you don't seem to acknowledge that BEFORE Fr. Aniceto was chrismated and ordained a priest, he was YOUR superior. He was your head bishop if I clearly remeber. Your letter sems to imply, that it was he who YOU accomodated INTO the Church, when it was the other way around!
What kind of a leader will he be abandoning his so-called "flock" for years and coming back telling lies about being abroad and seeking help outside thus he had the orthodoxy at hand while he was in the same city living with a woman for a year?

sohma_hatori said:
Also, there MIGHT be some monetary issues revolving around your excommunication..  ;)
The truth will set me free.
 

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Dear filipiniana,
There are a few items in your post I would like to respond to seperately, so I have divided your post up, please bear with me.
filipiniana said:
Hence, there should no longer be "resentments" and "resistance" on both sides from now on (if this is true?) and clergymen and faithful from the Greek (EP) side should now be invited and present during every "Primate of the Philippines" pastoral visits in the country which from now on should not be held clandestinely
This seems to me to echo concerns that many people have of the Orthodox Church in Counties like the Philipines, Greece, Australia, the UK and the USA where multiple jurisdictions exist simultaneously. For example, here in Australia, there is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Romanian Patriarchate, the Serbian Patriarchate etc. To those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy, this looks like disunity, but in fact, it is an expression of genuine "unity in diversity". The Orthodox Church is united in Faith, not administration, and there exists a bond of trust between the different jurisdictions which allows them to act independantly of one another. Yet we are all in Communion, and, here in Australia, we emphasise this with "Pan-Orthodox" Liturgies, Commissions etc. This unity of Faith is more important than differences of opinion as to how things ought to be done. As I said, the EP has no Western Rite parishes or monasteries, but it hasn't broken Communion with Antioch over their Western Rite Churches. The philosophy seems to be "let them do things as they see fit". What you should also know is that every Orthodox jurisdiction has the right to appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for an adjudication when a dispute arises. This was the case recently with the Jerusalem Patriarchate, when the Synod of the Jerusalem Patriarchate took a "vote of no confidence" in the former Patriarch of Jerusalem and appealed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The EP then summoned a Pan-Orthodox "Endomousa Synod" which upheld and ratified the decision of the Synod of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and deposed the former Patriarch.

filipiniana said:
and that details of chrismations and ordinations in the Philippines should now be published in the official website of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia.
I'm not sure why this needs to be a requirement. It's not a requirement of any other Orthodox Jurisdiction, so why should it be a requirement of the Antiochians? Certainly, an Orthodox Church is required to keep other Orthodox Churches informed of who it's clergy are and who is a member, but this is normally on a "need to know" basis and is in the form of letters of recommendation, certificates etc. For example, if an Antiochian Orthodox Christian wishes to Sponsor at the Baptism of a Greek Orthodox Christian and they are unknown to the celebrant of the Baptism, they are usually required to provide their own Baptisimal Certificate as well as a letter of recommendation from their Parish Priest to say they are an Orthodox Christian in good standing. And if their Priest is not known to the celebrant, then he would provide a letter of recommendation from his Bishop. This is how things have been done in the Orthodox Church for centuries. The internet is a new phenomenon, and in terms of "Orthodox Time", it hasn't even been born yet!

filipiniana said:
The main issue now is this and please find time to read it carefully all over it again:

GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:

I am in no way an employee of Jeptah Aniceto and never was. I can see how he still can lie through his teeth now. The evidence you have at hand is basically a one-sided, it must just be his words against mine. You have heard him but you haven't been into the areas (the supposed churches as listed in that website). Were you able to talk to the people in those areas other than Aniceto? Were you able to talk to  the people whose names were listed on that webpage?

The first lie, he used these people just so he have "people" to present to Archbishop few months back. How long did the Archbishop stayed with the congregation? 30mins, an hour? There was a confrontation among the people and Aniceto because most of these people didn't understand what was going on but the Archbishop didn't understand it simply because Aniceto didn't even give anyone a chance to have an open forum with the Archbishop. (posted with permission): Take note.. there are more coming...
This seems to confirm what sohma_hatori is saying when he says:
sohma_hatori said:
To ozgeorge:

The issue with  GodIsGoodHeSavesMe is about, some FORMER members of the Davao vicariate of the Antiochian Church who were dissatisfied with the vicar-general leadership.
As I understand, the former members of the Davao Vicariate have been excommunicated from the Vicariate. Is this correct? If so, then what is the problem? If they no longer wish to belong to the Orthodox Church in Davao for whatever reason (including perceived deception), that's fine- no one is imposing Orthodoxy on them. If they wish to be reconciled with their Bishop or appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarchate to receive them, then thats fine also, but no one is forcing them. Let them go their way in Peace, they have to make their own choices.

But is seems to me that this has become an issue of "personalities", with one "personality" picking up his bat and ball and saying "I don't want to play any more" and walking away with the members of his team who wish to follow him, and this seems to be based an a sense of being personally insulted, as indicated by:
GodIsGoodHeSavesMe said:
He might be able to destroy my integrity as a person and the integrity of the people he fooled here. But he will never be able to destroy the integrity of the TRUTH itself.
filipiniana said:
This is the real "issue" now. 
I disagree. The real issue is, and always has been the salvation of souls. Those who are outside of the Orthodox Church through no fault of their own will be judged by our merciful God who wants the Salvation of all. Those who of their own volition leave the Orthodox Church also depend on the mercy of God, but they once made a promise to God and have not fulfilled it. They have said "yes" to God and then said "no".
As the psalmist says: "Vow and pay your vows to the Lord our God..." (Psalm 75:11 LXX)
 

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ozgeorge said:
It's not a requirement of any other Orthodox Jurisdiction, so why should it be a requirement of the Antiochians? Certainly, an Orthodox Church is required to keep other Orthodox Churches informed of who it's clergy are and who is a member, but this is normally on a "need to know" basis and is in the form of letters of recommendation, certificates etc. For example, if an Antiochian Orthodox Christian wishes to Sponsor at the Baptism of a Greek Orthodox Christian and they are unknown to the celebrant of the Baptism, they are usually required to provide their own Baptisimal Certificate as well as a letter of recommendation from their Parish Priest to say they are an Orthodox Christian in good standing. And if their Priest is not known to the celebrant, then he would provide a letter of recommendation from his Bishop. This is how things have been done in the Orthodox Church for centuries. The internet is a new phenomenon, and in terms of "Orthodox Time", it hasn't even been born yet!
Just as in ancient times, forgery becomes easier with technology.  Anyone can type up official and canonical looking documents saying that they were baptized by Father <so and so> who was ordained by Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such>, etc.  Do people really call to verify the existence of Father <so and so> or Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such> and whether or not these people are canonical Orthodox Clergy and not someone with phony papers that can say anything?
 

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SolEX01 said:
Just as in ancient times, forgery becomes easier with technology.  Anyone can type up official and canonical looking documents saying that they were baptized by Father <so and so> who was ordained by Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such>, etc. 
That's true I guess.

SolEX01 said:
Do people really call to verify the existence of Father <so and so> or Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such> and whether or not these people are canonical Orthodox Clergy and not someone with phony papers that can say anything?
In my experience, yes they do check. The Godmother of one of my nephews baptized in the GO Archdiocese in Sydney is a member of the Antiocian Church in Melbourne. She had to produce her letter of recommendation and Birth Certificate to the Priest, who then checked with the then Antiochian Metropolitan Archbishop of Sydney that the Priest was indeed one of his Priests and then spoke to the Priest himself to confirm the letter. This probably goes back to your first point that we should never take anything in print on face value, particularly in these times, and the internet, if anything has confirmed this with so much conflicting information abounding on it (as is the case in this thread).
 

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ozgeorge said:
This probably goes back to your first point that we should never take anything in print on face value, particularly in these times, and the internet, if anything has confirmed this with so much conflicting information abounding on it (as is the case in this thread).
This thread reminds me of American Orthodoxy in the 1910's and 1920's in that Orthodoxy in the Phillippines is following the same chaotic path which will eventually reach entropy by the 22nd Century, give or take a few decades, lol.  :'(  In a decade, someone will be the Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Philippine Church or something with a snazzy abbreviation.  ;D
 

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SolEX01 said:
This thread reminds me of American Orthodoxy in the 1910's and 1920's in that Orthodoxy in the Phillippines is following the same chaotic path which will eventually reach entropy by the 22nd Century, give or take a few decades, lol.   :'(  In a decade, someone will be the Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Philippine Church or something with a snazzy abbreviation.   ;D
Unfortunately, this is the history of the Church for two millenia.
Every heresy and every schism has been the result of a power struggle.
But as Our Lord says:
“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
(Matthew 13:24-29)
 

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as for now,i'll not be taking sides.. regardless.. I respect the decisions of His Eminence Saliba, and i don't care if the vicariate im in is having all these controversies, I want to serve the Archdiocese, and since His Eminence has called me to be chrismated and made a sub-deacon, I will follow his call, because He is vested in the authority of my God.
 

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sohma_hatori said:
as for now,i'll not be taking sides.. regardless.. I respect the decisions of His Eminence Saliba, and i don't care if the vicariate im in is having all these controversies, I want to serve the Archdiocese, and since His Eminence has called me to be chrismated and made a sub-deacon, I will follow his call, because He is vested in the authority of my God.
I think this is the best attitude to go about the whole thing, and I agree with it. It should not affect us in our Faith, but should rather strengthen us. Let the matter be resolved by those who should resolve it; that is not in our hands, but those given authority to handle it.
 

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To Filipiniana and ozgeorge

To my knowledge, it wasHis Eminence who probably allowed them to use the modified rite. When the Archbishop comes on his visits here, he celebrates liturgy in according to St. John Chrysostom. Fr. Aniceto and the other priests said that, all the parishes will soon adopt the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, as they said, and i qoute, "in due time".
 

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I'm sad to hear that are such a problems in Philippines. Orthodoxy is such a nice and wonderful faith.
Trust in God, am pray to him, He is the solution for all world problems.
 

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I'm sad to hear that are such a problems in Philippines. Orthodoxy is such a nice and wonderful faith.
Trust in God, am pray to him, He is the solution for all world problems.
[/quote]

There really seems to be a problem between the EP and the Antiochian Orthodox church's presence in the Philippines. A friend of mine, a former priest of the Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC) in the Southern Luzon area (Bicol region) and now coordinator for missions in our province recently alerted me, through SMS, of a definite warning supposedly issued by Bp. Nectarios to all the  EP priests that the Antiochian orthodox church in the Philippines is uncanonical. This is a sad event if true.anybody can verify this, please?

 
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