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Converts wearing headcoverings= legalists?

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Tommelomsky

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Wearing a scarf or dressing modestly is all good in my honest opinion.
Most women in my parish does.
 

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Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
Welcome to OC.net Karaleighmum!  ;)

 

biro

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Tommelomsky said:
Wearing a scarf or dressing modestly is all good in my honest opinion.
Most women in my parish does.
That's fine, but where I'm from, we did not grow up with the same cultural meaning. Covering the head simply is not associated with modesty in most modern Western societies. So when I walk around with my head uncovered (I am a woman, by the way), it does not mean I'm trying to be offensive. It's just I was not brought up with the same culture. Where I come from, the people in your parish would be the ones who stood out. I would be the normal one.

I'm a little bit tired of being told I'm "immodest" when I reveal pretty much the ends of my arms, and my face, and that's it.
 

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biro said:
Tommelomsky said:
Wearing a scarf or dressing modestly is all good in my honest opinion.
Most women in my parish does.
That's fine, but where I'm from, we did not grow up with the same cultural meaning. Covering the head simply is not associated with modesty in most modern Western societies. So when I walk around with my head uncovered (I am a woman, by the way), it does not mean I'm trying to be offensive. It's just I was not brought up with the same culture. Where I come from, the people in your parish would be the ones who stood out. I would be the normal one.

I'm a little bit tired of being told I'm "immodest" when I reveal pretty much the ends of my arms, and my face, and that's it.
QFT!  There is more to modesty than just covering your head and your body (and like you, I have very little of my body showing--I am pretty well covered except my head).  If a woman can wear a headcovering and not look down on the women who don't--fine.  There was a time when I did wear one.  Unfortunately, especially on the internet more than real life, there sometimes seems to be a tendency to pride about wearing a headcovering and somehow seeing themselves as modest while those who don't are being immodest.  That was a different time and a different culture.  I don't feel that God is leading me to wear one, and most women in my parish don't wear them (including Matushka who was born and raised in Russia, though I am sure she wore one when she was in Russia).  Personally, I have a lot more important things to be working on in my life than wearing a head covering.  If you want to wear a headcovering, talk to your priest about it.  If he gives his blessing, then wear it.     
 

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I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.
 

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Peacemaker said:
I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.
I don't wear short skirts. At my first liturgy, I wore one that was so long, I darn near tripped over it, and a lady grabbed my elbow just in time to keep me from keeling over.

My point was, when people don't wear the headcovering, they probably don't do it to get in your face about it. Society hasn't been that way for them since their grandparents' day. They don't associate hair with modesty, simply put. But you seem to have a bad opinion of them anyway. Sorry, not everyone is Russian or Greek or whomever. I guess only people who wear mantillas can be holy.
 

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I agree, biro.  Also, as I pointed out, Russian women come to the church in Vegas wearing a headcovering but showing a lot of the rest of their bodies.  My bishop said he would rather them skip the headcovering and cover up the rest of their bodies.  Just because a woman is wearing a headcovering doesn't mean she has covered the rest of her body. 
 

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biro said:
Peacemaker said:
I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.
But you seem to have a bad opinion of them anyway. Sorry, not everyone is Russian or Greek or whomever.
I didn't give an opinion and I didn't say to be Russian or Greek. I said in Russia. Was talking about the difference between America and other Orthodox countries. In Russia in today's time, this century and you'll see a sea of head coverings, not in America for whatever reason. To say you don't need a head covering is a statement of selfish pride. Do what the Bible says, simple as that.

"But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. 6 For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head." 1 Cor 11

So if people want to complain and say it's to old fashioned and don't want to cover their head, shave it.
 

biro

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Are you kidding me? I'm not shaving my head, and almost no one in my parish wears a mantilla anymore. Not even the elderly women. As I said, we're not all Russians.

You convinced me I don't belong in your church.
 

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biro said:
Are you kidding me? I'm not shaving my head, and almost no one in my parish wears a mantilla anymore. Not even the elderly women. As I said, we're not all Russians.

You convinced me I don't belong in your church.
Again, I didn't call anyone Russian, I was talking about the country

I don't have a "church", I'm a part of The Church, set down by God and His Holy Apostles.

If you don't want to follow the laws of God, I'm no one to judge.

 

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Peacemaker said:
biro said:
Are you kidding me? I'm not shaving my head, and almost no one in my parish wears a mantilla anymore. Not even the elderly women. As I said, we're not all Russians.

You convinced me I don't belong in your church.
Again, I didn't call anyone Russian, I was talking about the country

I don't have a "church", I'm a part of The Church, set down by God and His Holy Apostles.

If you don't want to follow the laws of God, I'm no one to judge.
But see that, you kinda just did.
 

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My comment was not meant to point fingers at anyone. Sure there are different cultures out there and most people in my parish are from Russia, Latvia, Estonia and the countries that in some was called "The Soviet Union". I am sure that there are differences between a ethnic parish in small Norway compared to a not so ethnic parish in hugely USA or Canada. Both in dressing and attitude.

It was just an opinion and not an attempt to judge anyone.
 

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In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction.  Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering.  One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf. 

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers.  What is the reason for that?

Personally, I like the modesty of headcovering, and the reasons for doing it in Thomas' article also make sense.  I haven't really looked into it much or discussed it with any clergy in my parish yet, but could see myself covering in church and during prayer once I'm Orthodox.
 

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Deborah said:
In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction.  Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering.  One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.  

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers.  What is the reason for that?

Personally, I like the modesty of headcovering, and the reasons for doing it in Thomas' article also make sense.  I haven't really looked into it much or discussed it with any clergy in my parish yet, but could see myself covering in church and during prayer once I'm Orthodox.
In my Antiochian parish it's similar to what you described. There are women that cover the whole time, or immediately prior to communing, but there are also some that commune without covering. Nobody seems to care about whether others are covering or not.
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.
According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.
 

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yeshuaisiam said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.
According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.
Stop your Amish propaganda, please.
 

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Deborah said:
In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction.  Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering.  One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.  

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers.  What is the reason for that?
Such behaviour I've noticed in Coptic churches but I know some Orthodox women in Poland also wear a head scarf only for receiving the Holy Sacraments (confession, Communion) or only for the receiving the Holy Eucharist. No idea why. But e.g my priest asked me to wear a skirt at least when I receive the Communion, so again, it's connected with the Mysteries. And what's interesting, he said that skirt (of course not mini, but a modest one) was more important and then any veil wasn't necessary. It's something to show and feel you're feminine as God created you with your own features and tasks (I don't know if I explained it correctly).

Nephi said:
In my Antiochian parish it's similar to what you described. There are women that cover the whole time, or immediately prior to communing, but there are also some that commune without covering. Nobody seems to care about whether others are covering or not.
That's the practice of Polish and Serbian parishes I know.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
yeshuaisiam said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.
According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.
Stop your Amish propaganda, please.
Amish?  Propaganda?
 

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Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
yeshuaisiam said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.
According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.
Stop your Amish propaganda, please.
Amish?  Propaganda?
Yeshuaisiam practices a mix of Baptist theology, Orthodox ecclesiology, and Amish mentality. It's not wrong per se however he should not present his views as Orthodox ones in this section (and a few more).
 

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Man, I'm telling you, some of you folks are too funny.

Wear it, don't wear it.  Acquiesce to your conscience.  If you are moved to wear a covering, do so; if not, practice humility in other ways which are not distracting to other parishioners.

The cultural import of "head covering" is no longer really in place.  Empty ritual if practiced out of compulsion; rich and full ritual if practiced out of genuine movement from within by God.

That's all you need to know.

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere?  Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist.  Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc.  Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)
 

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alanscott said:
Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
Welcome to OC.net Karaleighmum!  ;)

Thanks Scott! lol
 

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At home no, in church yes. But again: that is just my opinion about it. Not that my words matters in the big picture.
 

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yeshuaisiam said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.
According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.
Actually, did not the Christian Orthodox ladies, including the Theotokos, observe the covering of their hair for the above two reasons? And did not the Amish come way after the Ancient Faith?
 

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Tommelomsky said:
At home no, in church yes.
That doesn't make any sense. Why whould praying in home instead of a church make an exception to the rule?
 

Tommelomsky

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Alpo said:
Tommelomsky said:
At home no, in church yes.
That doesn't make any sense. Why whould praying in home instead of a church make an exception to the rule?
Aeh..that was not what I meant at all. No I am not crazy, if that is what you really are asking me.
 

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Tommelomsky said:
Alpo said:
Tommelomsky said:
At home no, in church yes.
That doesn't make any sense. Why whould praying in home instead of a church make an exception to the rule?
Aeh..that was not what I meant at all. No I am not crazy, if that is what you really are asking me.
Our homes are blessed and are considered "domestic churches."
 

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Then I misunderstood, so it changes my answer and I would then say yes on both.
Apologies and thanks for the correction. I am officially embarassed now..
 

Alpo

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No need for apologies or feeling embarassed. It's not that dangerous to have different kind of opinions. :)
 

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I should have known this about the home. On the other side, it is so easy for me as a male to tell a female how to dress. Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.

Maybe the best thing would be tonight to pray for the converts that do face this problem and ask The Lord to guide them. He can. Nothing is impossible for Him.
 

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Tommelomsky said:
Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.
Just in case people get confused, in Norwegian, 'dress' means suit :)
 

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Orthodox11 said:
Tommelomsky said:
Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.
Just in case people get confused, in Norwegian, 'dress' means suit :)
Yes, that is correct. :)
A russian lady in my parish said once to me: God is pleased when you behave and dress nicely in the church.
 

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katherine 2001 said:
I agree, biro.  Also, as I pointed out, Russian women come to the church in Vegas wearing a headcovering but showing a lot of the rest of their bodies.  My bishop said he would rather them skip the headcovering and cover up the rest of their bodies.  Just because a woman is wearing a headcovering doesn't mean she has covered the rest of her body. 
Lol.  I have seen this plenty often.  I could have told you more about her underwear than her hair style!  :D

But most of the women at our church who wear a head covering also dress modestly as well.
 

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Karaleighmum said:
"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!
When before your icon corner, especially during morning and eve. prayers you certainly could cover your head as an act of piety IMHO. Jewish

Women cover their head during the lighting of Sabbath candles in the home..







 

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Maria said:
Orthodox11 said:
Tommelomsky said:
Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.
Just in case people get confused, in Norwegian, 'dress' means suit :)
Full dress can also refer to a formal military uniform.
Which I have worn to church on a number of occasions, quite uncomfortable with all the bending and just standing...
Still haven't worn my kilt to church yet, with or with out the uniform


My wife prays at home with a head scarf, eventually she will move up to wearing one at church, but she is not legalistic by any means.
 

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Deep Roots said:
(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere?  Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist.  Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc.  Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)
Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.
 

Deep Roots

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William said:
Deep Roots said:
(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere?  Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist.  Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc.  Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)
Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.
Actually, I have no problem with them.  I think they're beautiful.  I'd say a slight majority of the women in my church wear them.  It's a beautiful sight to behold, I think.  My wife is Episcopal, but if she ever decided to wear one when she comes to church with me, I'd have no problem.

So..nice try, but no.  I just oppose theologically armwrestling someone into feeling that it's necessary or preferable.
 
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