Converts wearing headcoverings= legalists?

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mike

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Alveus Lacuna said:
I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?
Little kid, when is -10 oC inside the Church? Yes, I suppose.

Otherwise, no.
 

Karaleighmum

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Alveus Lacuna said:
I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?
Are you sayng that Scripture does or does not allow for men to wear hats to church? Because Corinthians (the same scripture referring to women) says that if a man were to cover his head it would be a dishonor.
 

Karaleighmum

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Maria said:
Karaleighmum said:
Deep Roots said:
Maria said:
I understand your concern.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks  should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.
that's a shame.  that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.
i agree completely. The Lord wants us to love one another, not be cruel.
Exactly, we are to forgive and to love one another as Christ has first loved us.
Amen sister!! I am really grateful this thread has come back to a gentle loving discussion, praise the Lord!
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?
I would argue that it was cultural (not theological) then, and it is so today as well. And since it is culturally unacceptable, at least in conservative circles, I would think the prohibition of hats (except funny ones on clergy) would stand. Perhaps it falls under the category of submitting ot "every ordinance of man" in 1 Pet. 2:13-17? I dunno, just thinking out loud.
 

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Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
 

Asteriktos

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Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.
I think I've made three posts on the subject in the last 10 years.  :police:
 

Maria

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Alveus Lacuna said:
I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?
If some Ethiopian Orthodox men still cover their heads when receiving Communion, then why do women somehow feel they can exempt themselves?

In fact, why are these holy customs dying out today?

In the end times, it is mentioned that good will be considered "bad," and that bad will be considered "good."

It seems that we have already reached that tipping point where those who want to observe high fashions accuse those few women who want to observe the holy tradition of covering their heads and bodies of being legalistic and proud. Now who is judging who?
 

Maria

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Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
We are just having a discussion.

It seems like the minority of Orthodox Christians who are observing the holy tradition of wearing headcoverings, wearing long modest clothing that covers one's body, coming to Great Vespers on Saturday evening, going regularly to Holy Confession, saying the Canon of Communion, and even observing the fasts and feasts are often accused of being "legalists," "proud," and "more holy than the Greek Patriarch."

/rant/
Listen, those of us who want to follow the ancient and Holy Traditions of Holy Orthodoxy should be allowed to do so, but no, the minimalists will not leave us alone. Why cannot they mind their own business?
/end of rant/

Back on topic. Let us forgive and love one another.

Let us dwell in unity and not discourage others from observing the Holy Traditions.
 

JamesR

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I've already made the commitment to do all of those things Maria stated and live ultra "hyperdox" when I become an adult; the only reason I don't right now is because I'm still at the mercy of a heterodox family. You can't really observe all of the fasts when you eat what your mom cooks.
 

Maria

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JamesR said:
I've already made the commitment to do all of those things Maria stated and live ultra "hyperdox" when I become an adult; the only reason I don't right now is because I'm still at the mercy of a heterodox family. You can't really observe all of the fasts when you eat what your mom cooks.
Actually, it is best to honor your Mom and Dad and to eat and use the things they provide with thanksgiving.

In this way, they may convert to Orthodoxy. Then you will have to be a good example, so that they do not become "hyperdox.."
 

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How quickly we go off topic and take a meaningful discussion into the area of innuendo, attack, and allow Satan to  allow anger and  sarcasm  to lead us off topic. I apologize for not intervening earlier yesterday but I was sick and did not go on-line to nip this in the bud.  Thank you brother Peter for doing so .

I am bringing the topic back on topic again with the following quote from the article I cited earlier in the discussion on page One:


"The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own  salvation in peril." (underlining emphasis was added for this posting alone)

With this statement let us return to Christian and charitable discussion of this issue without violating the purpose of the Convert Issues Forum. Any further off topic or un-Christian behavior will force me to close this topic.

In Christ,
Thomas
Convert Issues Forum Moderator

 

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Maria said:
It seems like the minority of Orthodox Christians who are observing the holy tradition of wearing headcoverings, wearing long modest clothing that covers one's body, coming to Great Vespers on Saturday evening, going regularly to Holy Confession, saying the Canon of Communion, and even observing the fasts and feasts are often accused of being "legalists," "proud," and "more holy than the Greek Patriarch."
aren't you kind of assuming that women who don't wear a headcovering are also concerned with "the latest fashions"?  I see women at my church who do neither.  They don't wear a headcovering, yet they wear their hair plain and modest on Sundays.
 
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Karaleighmum said:
I really did not mean anything cruel intentioned. I am asking as a convert for gentle educated opinions. I did not say you were a tool of the Devil's. I am just pointing out that in scripture it says very definitively one thing, and it does not say "according to the custom of the times"

I really wish people weren't so harsh on here. I just want to learn more. I am also not saying all things of this day in age are work of he Devil. They seem to be able to be tools of his if they become a distraction from the one True purpose of life. But that is probably discussion for a different thread.
So incredibly true.

Also, people being late for church: am I the only one who arrives on time to an empty church and leaves barely being able to get out the door? Our liturgy goes for three hours and people don't really start arriving until at least an hour into it.
 

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AustralianDiaspora said:
Karaleighmum said:
I really did not mean anything cruel intentioned. I am asking as a convert for gentle educated opinions. I did not say you were a tool of the Devil's. I am just pointing out that in scripture it says very definitively one thing, and it does not say "according to the custom of the times"

I really wish people weren't so harsh on here. I just want to learn more. I am also not saying all things of this day in age are work of he Devil. They seem to be able to be tools of his if they become a distraction from the one True purpose of life. But that is probably discussion for a different thread.
So incredibly true.

Also, people being late for church: am I the only one who arrives on time to an empty church and leaves barely being able to get out the door? Our liturgy goes for three hours and people don't really start arriving until at least an hour into it.
Same here.
 
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Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
It seems to be a uniquely U.S thing. I've never seen the issue of head coverings come up here in Australia and the Greeks in my family and at church don't make an issue of it either. It's ironic that something like a head covering - which occurred in a cultural context - can be appropriated in good faith yet belief in The Evil Eye, which exists in every Orthodox country, is considered pagan. It would be nice if there was more respect for the cultures in which Orthodoxy developed in Western countries rather than Westerners picking what is Real Orthodoxy and what is not.
 

biro

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I want to apologize for my poor behavior. I've been kind of a yutz lately.

I'm working on it.  :-[ :-*
 

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biro said:
I want to apologize for my poor behavior. I've been kind of a yutz lately.

I'm working on it.  :-[ :-*
:-* ;) I don't mind a bit of spice here and there myself, when the intent is to sweeten as yours is most of the time, mazel tov!
 

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William said:
Punch has related elsewhere on the forum that his Serbian priest will not commune women without headcoverings. I have also seen several church etiquette guides on church websites saying that headcoverings are to be worn. Example: http://sfsobor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=81&lang=en
This is true.  And you should have seen the looks that I got from priests from other jurisdictions when we enforced this during a recent service where all the local priests decided to come to our Church where a visiting Bishop (Old Calendar) was serving.  
 

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Karaleighmum said:
Maria said:
Karaleighmum said:
Deep Roots said:
Maria said:
I understand your concern.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks  should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.
that's a shame.  that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.
i agree completely. The Lord wants us to love one another, not be cruel.
Exactly, we are to forgive and to love one another as Christ has first loved us.
Amen sister!! I am really grateful this thread has come back to a gentle loving discussion, praise the Lord!
Thanks Karaleighmum.

Bringing this thread back on topic once again.

Can women who choose to wear a headcovering be treated with Christian love and respect?
Actually, if one considers the vast expanse of Russia, the majority of women in the Orthodox Church do cover their heads. America is not the norm.
 

Maria

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Punch said:
William said:
Punch has related elsewhere on the forum that his Serbian priest will not commune women without headcoverings. I have also seen several church etiquette guides on church websites saying that headcoverings are to be worn. Example: http://sfsobor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=81&lang=en
This is true.  And you should have seen the looks that I got from priests from other jurisdictions when we enforced this during a recent service where all the local priests decided to come to our Church where a visiting Bishop (Old Calendar) was serving.
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
 

Karaleighmum

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Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
 

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Karaleighmum said:
Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
 

Maria

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PeterTheAleut said:
Karaleighmum said:
Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures. Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.
 

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Maria said:
We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.
Like in the past there weren't revealing clothes...
 

PeterTheAleut

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Maria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Karaleighmum said:
Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures.
I am sticking to the topic at hand, Maria.

Maria said:
Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.
No one is harassing our converts for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions, Maria. The question of what constitutes those Holy Traditions, though, is not as clear as you think, and many of our converts recognize that.

BTW, you never answered my question. Were the Scriptures written in a vacuum or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
 

PeterTheAleut

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^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
Thank you for admitting this. No, we should not make any such generalizations as such would be considered judgmental.
 

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I personally don't believe in the "Big-T/Little-t" distinction; that makes really no sense and has no basis in the history of the Church. However, my thoughts are that the issue should be left to the discernment of the convert's Bishop and/or spiritual father; what do they believe is appropriate for them at the time? etc. Ultimately, the intention of why a convert would want to wear a headcovering is what matters. If it is out of true zeal, then--as Maria stated--why hinder her? What's so wrong with wanting to adhere to the Church in all aspects? If--however--it is rooted in Hyperdox Herman-like pride, then, it is probably up to her spiritual father to handle the issue.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
Converts can have a hard time unlearning their previous ways and really embracing Orthodoxy, and they need all the help they can get.

If wearing a head covering helps, by all means wear it. If not, skip it.

A parish has every right in the world to establish its own dress code; if there is one, follow it or go elsewhere - if there isn't, let people make individual choices and leave well alone.

If you started out without covering and along the way you feel called to veil, go ahead. If you used to veil and now you want to stop, more power to you.

Orthodoxy never was and never will be one-size-fits-all.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her. 
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
This!
 

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katherine 2001 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  
Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
 

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Maria said:
Should she dress like a harlot? Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
But it is not "associated with harlotry" now in any part of the U.S. that I am aware of.  Do you know of some place where ladies who have their hair visible are assumed to be selling their favours?

Which "recent past" are you thinking of, please? And what countries/cultures?  This was/is not a universal and it certainly has not be "associated with harlotry" in my life time in the United States, nor in my mother's time and she is 90 1/2
In many parts of America and other parts of the world headgear has many meanings.

 

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Maria said:
katherine 2001 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  
Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Maria said:
katherine 2001 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  
Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
Of course, it is not proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings as we are not to judge any one. Instead, we are to look at our own failings.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
 

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Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
???
There was only one question, right?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
???
There was only one question, right?
Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.
 

Dominika

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Maria said:
In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly.
I've heard some such opinions from men too. But I think, that it's THEIR problem (mostly). I dress modestly, but generally not head covering. So, if a man is tempted by me, it's his problem. Of course if a woman puts on, especially in church, a miniskirt, it's her fault and sin the first place.

But regarding the question, now I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.
 
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