Converts wearing headcoverings= legalists?

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Karaleighmum

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Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
 

PeterTheAleut

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Karaleighmum said:
Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
 

Maria

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PeterTheAleut said:
Karaleighmum said:
Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures. Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.
 

mike

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Maria said:
We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.
Like in the past there weren't revealing clothes...
 

PeterTheAleut

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Maria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Karaleighmum said:
Peacemaker said:
Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.
I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures.
I am sticking to the topic at hand, Maria.

Maria said:
Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.
No one is harassing our converts for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions, Maria. The question of what constitutes those Holy Traditions, though, is not as clear as you think, and many of our converts recognize that.

BTW, you never answered my question. Were the Scriptures written in a vacuum or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
 

PeterTheAleut

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^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
 

Maria

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PeterTheAleut said:
Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
Thank you for admitting this. No, we should not make any such generalizations as such would be considered judgmental.
 

JamesR

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I personally don't believe in the "Big-T/Little-t" distinction; that makes really no sense and has no basis in the history of the Church. However, my thoughts are that the issue should be left to the discernment of the convert's Bishop and/or spiritual father; what do they believe is appropriate for them at the time? etc. Ultimately, the intention of why a convert would want to wear a headcovering is what matters. If it is out of true zeal, then--as Maria stated--why hinder her? What's so wrong with wanting to adhere to the Church in all aspects? If--however--it is rooted in Hyperdox Herman-like pride, then, it is probably up to her spiritual father to handle the issue.
 

Arachne

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PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
Converts can have a hard time unlearning their previous ways and really embracing Orthodoxy, and they need all the help they can get.

If wearing a head covering helps, by all means wear it. If not, skip it.

A parish has every right in the world to establish its own dress code; if there is one, follow it or go elsewhere - if there isn't, let people make individual choices and leave well alone.

If you started out without covering and along the way you feel called to veil, go ahead. If you used to veil and now you want to stop, more power to you.

Orthodoxy never was and never will be one-size-fits-all.
 

katherine2001

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PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her. 
 

Punch

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PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
This!
 

Maria

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katherine 2001 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  
Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
 

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Maria said:
Should she dress like a harlot? Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
But it is not "associated with harlotry" now in any part of the U.S. that I am aware of.  Do you know of some place where ladies who have their hair visible are assumed to be selling their favours?

Which "recent past" are you thinking of, please? And what countries/cultures?  This was/is not a universal and it certainly has not be "associated with harlotry" in my life time in the United States, nor in my mother's time and she is 90 1/2
In many parts of America and other parts of the world headgear has many meanings.

 

PeterTheAleut

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Maria said:
katherine 2001 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  
Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
 

Maria

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PeterTheAleut said:
Maria said:
katherine 2001 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  
Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
Of course, it is not proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings as we are not to judge any one. Instead, we are to look at our own failings.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
 

Kerdy

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PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
???
There was only one question, right?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
???
There was only one question, right?
Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.
 

Dominika

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Maria said:
In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly.
I've heard some such opinions from men too. But I think, that it's THEIR problem (mostly). I dress modestly, but generally not head covering. So, if a man is tempted by me, it's his problem. Of course if a woman puts on, especially in church, a miniskirt, it's her fault and sin the first place.

But regarding the question, now I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.
 
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