Converts wearing headcoverings= legalists?

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Deep Roots

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Maria said:
Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings
really?  maybe in some countries, but uh, not where I live. 

In fact, I bet that some folks actually fetishize headcoverings. How many here probably think a woman is "more beautiful" with a headcovering?  I think a fixation on the heacovering becomes quite unhealthy.

As I said at the beginning: wear it, don't wear it, according to one's conscience and culture.
 

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For what it is worth, in my Russian Orthodox Church in Spain, about, oh, 100% of the women over the age 8 cover their hair.

I love it because (1) I think it is Scriptural and (2) I find it less distracting, given that we are all standing.

I've never heard any woman in the parish complain and there are a number of professional women. I sizeable number seem to wear Burberry...very fashionable.  ;)
 

Punch

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It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.  The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

Dominika said:
Maria said:
In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly.
I've heard some such opinions from men too. But I think, that it's THEIR problem (mostly). I dress modestly, but generally not head covering. So, if a man is tempted by me, it's his problem. Of course if a woman puts on, especially in church, a miniskirt, it's her fault and sin the first place.

But regarding the question, now I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.
 

Maria

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Headcovering: Legalism or Obedience to God

Several women in my prior parish were given a blessing to wear a headcovering only when receiving the sacraments, so that we would not upset the majority of females who were blatant feminists. The priest was hoping that our example would help the parish change. But alas, it further divided the OCA parish as the loud and strident feminists would rather tear our parish apart than see a women veiled.

Yes, there were a couple of other women who were given permission to wear their headcoverings during the entire Divine Liturgy, but these women were single and were contemplating entering the monastic life. So as not to cause confusion, the priest consistently advised married women to wear the head covering only at the time the sacrament was administered to them, but single women discerning the monastic life could wear it at any time, even in the parish hall. We all wore the head covering in a spirit of obedience. Later, most of us left that sick parish, especially after the Bishop issued a letter rebuking that parish.

So, wearing the headcovering was not done in a spirit of legalism, but rather it was worn in humility and obedience. In fact, I had to have the blessing of my (former) priest and my husband in order to wear it, which is strange since St. Paul admonished women to wear the veil. Was my priest above St. Paul? Of course not, but he was between a sharp rock (the strident women) and a hard place (his dying parish).

Punch said:
It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.  The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.


Dominika said:
I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.
p.s.: During this time we had several inquirers and catechumens. The women catechumens chose to and were granted a blessing to wear the headcovering.
 

Kerdy

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PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
???
There was only one question, right?
Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.
The question.
 

Santagranddad

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When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?
 

Maria

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Santagranddad said:
When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?
Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.
 

Seth84

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It is sad that people judge women who cover.  It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair. 
 

Achronos

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Ionnis said:
It is sad that people judge women who cover.  It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.   
Is it because they think they don't have enough reverence for the Eucharist?
 

Seth84

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Achronos said:
Ionnis said:
It is sad that people judge women who cover.  It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.   
Is it because they think they don't have enough reverence for the Eucharist?
I wouldn't know.  I was referring to Maria's earlier post where she was glorifying God after hearing that Punch's priest refused Holy Communion to women without head coverings. 
 

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Is the priest judging or simply guarding the chalice, as is his sacred duty? All of us approaching the chalice have a duty to prepare beforehand, male and female. And Orthodoxy is not a pick n' mix Pathway nor is public worship a fashion parade.

How is it some feel their autonomy must not be challenged, to follow Christ is a different path and has different values than that of the world, even from the beginning this has been so, surely?
 

SolEX01

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Punch said:
It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.
Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

Punch said:
The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.
The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....
 

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SolEX01 said:
Punch said:
It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.
Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

Punch said:
The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.
The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....
Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
???
There was only one question, right?
Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.
The question.
Thank you. Now that wasn't so hard, was it? ;)
 

PeterTheAleut

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Maria said:
Santagranddad said:
When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?
Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.
Don't you think that kind of comment extremely hypocritical? You remind us of Christ's command that we not judge, specifically as this governs how we relate to inquirers and catechumens who decide to wear head coverings, yet in the same post you judge as "Orthodox in name only" those who claim that these catechumens are being legalistic. If you're going to cite Christ's command that we not judge, Maria, then you had better practice what you preach.
 

SolEX01

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Santagranddad said:
SolEX01 said:
Punch said:
It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.
Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

Punch said:
The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.
The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....
Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.
When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections
 

Maria

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PeterTheAleut said:
Maria said:
Santagranddad said:
When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?
Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.
Don't you think that kind of comment extremely hypocritical? You remind us of Christ's command that we not judge, specifically as this governs how we relate to inquirers and catechumens who decide to wear head coverings, yet in the same post you judge as "Orthodox in name only" those who claim that these catechumens are being legalistic. If you're going to cite Christ's command that we not judge, Maria, then you had better practice what you preach.
PtA, I admit that I am a sinner in that post. I could have edited that part out, but then I would have been truly hypocritical.

Hopefully, those who are so quick to condemn catechumens for wearing headcoverings will see their own hypocritical spirit.

We are all hypocrites in need of Christ's mercy.

 

Maria

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SolEX01 said:
Santagranddad said:
SolEX01 said:
Punch said:
It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.
Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

Punch said:
The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.
The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....
Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.
When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections
How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?
 

SolEX01

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Maria said:
SolEX01 said:
Santagranddad said:
SolEX01 said:
Punch said:
It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.
Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

Punch said:
The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.
The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....
Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.
When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections
How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?
That is legalism.  Wasn't that the lesson on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

Maria said:
And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?
I was responding to how Punch's Priest handles uncovered women.  Still pertains to covered vs. uncovered cathecumens (I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).
 

Maria

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SolEX01 said:
Maria said:
SolEX01 said:
Santagranddad said:
SolEX01 said:
Punch said:
It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.
Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

Punch said:
The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.
The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....
Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.
When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections
How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?
That is legalism.  Wasn't that the lesson on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

Maria said:
And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?
I was responding to how Punch's Priest handles uncovered women.  Still pertains to covered vs. uncovered cathecumens (I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).
See, now you are revealing your thoughts ...
(I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).
This was not a kind statement, but a rudely judgmental statement.

I do not consider myself better than those women who do not cover themselves. Only Christ can read our hearts and know our thoughts. I try my best not to judge them, but it is very difficult when they have gossiped loudly about me during the Priest's sermon so that I could hear the gossip rather than Father. They were taunting me. And yes, I do pray that they will be saved. Lord have mercy.

And because of this, I have left the OCA as being in their company was not unto my salvation.

Now hear the following which was told to me by catechumens who wear headcovering. These catechmens are not legalistic by any means:

Many women who wear headcoverings do so much like horses wear blinders. It helps them to focus and to control their eyes. They wear it with humility and obedience, and most importantly, it helps them to pray.

So, now we are back on topic as these simple catechumens and converts do not wear the headcovering because they are legalistic, but because they love Christ God and the Orthodox Church and want to obey what was written in the Epistles and has always been taught in the Orthodox Church from the beginning -- that unchanging Faith that was given to us by Christ through the Apostles for all peoples and all times.

Sometimes, it is hot, and then the headcovering is very uncomfortable. I sweat and my hair gets wrecked, but I reflect on Christ and his sufferings. My sufferings are so little compared with what He went through for all of us. The ridicule I have received is so mild with what Christ had to suffer.

Those who follow Christ accept His Cross, and that includes ridicule from those who do not want to adhere to the teachings and traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church.
 
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