Mor Ephrem said:
Antonious Nikolas, With all due respect to you as my friend, and as a non-Copt (so take it FWIW), I think the title of this thread is way over the top considering the paucity of evidence presented in it, and I believe this to be regrettable.
We are indeed friends, Mor Ephrem, but I must respectfully disagree, as I am referencing a direct and to-the-point quote from Schmidt-Rieding. I realize that you have tried to call my interpretation of the quote into question, as well as its translation, but, again respectfully, I don't think you've accomplished your goal on either score. (Though in truth, I wish you had.) My German is pretty good, and from what I can hear (I will go into detail concerning what precisely I can make out further below) this man clearly feels that he is simultaneously a member of both the Coptic Church and his former denomination.
Also, please consider that I did not create this thread in a vacuum, but as a living member of the Coptic Church who is concerned with the effects that bad ecclesiology and false ecumenism have had on her of late. As I have indicated, I do not wish to call names, but I could easily link to recent articles and speeches by prominent Coptic clergy (including bishops) which promote the idea that the Coptic Church is part of the Universal Church along with various heterodox confessions. If Schmidt-Rieding had been a member of the Russian Church and had said the same thing, I would happily write him off as a delusional anomaly or a singular crank. In the Coptic Church, however, where I can personally attest to priests permitting (and even spearheading) the use of Protestant CCM in the Liturgy, the use of
Purpose Driven Life in the spiritual meetings, priests copying Evangelical Protestant sermons word-for-word and posting them online, the Pentecostal
Alpha program being used in the educational curriculum of entire dioceses, etc., etc., etc., then I see Schmidt-Rieding's comments as part of a disturbing trend.
By the way, I tried to put "Convert Deacon Contends that Coptic Church in Germany Permits Dual Membership in Protestant Church" (or something similar) in as the title, but apparently that was too long for the forum to accept, so I had to shorten it. If you find my shortened version regrettable, I am indeed sorry for that, but please understand that we have a huge problem in our Church, which so far, is apparently not being addressed outside of the dioceses of certain enthroned bishops (H.G. Anba Youssef and H.E. Metropolitan, may God preserve their lives, as well as the general bishop H.G. Anba Abanoub in Muqattam). Schmidt-Rieding's comments - especially when coupled with both this general trend in the Coptic Church, and the apparent mélange being created with the heterodox in Germany - are troubling to me, and I feel that they need to be addressed. Any heterodox Christian watching this report would walk away with the impression that the Coptic Church concelebrates with the Catholics, permits dual membership in heterodox confessions, and considers itself a part of a Universal Church that includes the same (which is more regrettable than my critical commentary here), even as many who watched the
60 Minutes report on Muqattam might have walked away with the impression that the Coptic Church endorses Charismatism. (Which apparently was the case in that particular parish, until H.G. Anba Abanoub straightened things out there, glory to God.)
Mor Ephrem said:
Indeed, which would be troubling.
Mor Ephrem said:
Or it could be his way of describing his conversion in a way that won't alienate people who would probably be dumbfounded at the idea of "re-baptism".
I would consider such a tactic to be disingenuous, especially given the prevalence of wrongheaded ecclesiology in the modern Coptic Church and the ramifications of deliberately creating such a false impression.
Mor Ephrem said:
It could be his own peculiar way of speaking.
I doubt it. He makes his position clear. He doesn't feel as if he has left the Protestant church. He feels that he belongs simultaneously to two confessions. The question is how he came to believe that he could.
Mor Ephrem said:
Also, the man is speaking in German and we are hearing a translation, presumably by Deutsch Welle.
I do wish that they had simply used subtitles - not only here, but in all of their reporting - but my German is pretty good, and as a frequent viewer, I generally trust
Deutsche Well in to be accurate and not to misrepresent those they are translating for. Also, as indicated above, although it is admittedly hard to hear with the translator talking over him, it seems he says something along the lines of, "Wir mussten nicht aus der evangelischen Kirche kommen", ("It wasn't necessary for us to come out of the Evangelical Church") and he says, "doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft", confirming the "duel citizenship" paraphrase. Overall, I'd say the translation is pretty close to the mark. Also, there's
this recent booklet featuring an article on the Coptic Church in the cloister in question in which Schmidt-Rieding is described as, "einen bekennenden evangelischen Christen" (a confessing Evangelical Christian"). It seems he is trying to keep a foot in two confessional worlds.
I'd honestly be more than happy to be wrong about this, but so far, you haven't shown me that my concerns are entirely unfounded.
Mor Ephrem said:
Can we be certain that what he said is what they are telling us he said?
I think so, yes. We can at least trust that it is a very close approximation. Though I would be happy to be corrected, I don't see any reason to doubt the general truth of the translation.
It is clear that this man feels that he has not left his former church.
I am all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt within reasonable limits, but please, and I say this even as you did as a friend, let us not play the obfuscating game to the point that all attempted criticism of bad ecumenism in the Coptic Church becomes neutered and meaningless. I remember being forced to spend several pages unnecessarily quibbling with my other friend Remnkemi over the meaning a term which already has a standing definition - Charismatism - in the thread about the charismania formerly carried out in the Church of St. Simon the Tanner, until, thank God, H.G. Anba Abanoub stepped in and put his foot down for all the world to see. I'm not going to be exhausted by such tactics, nor withdraw any criticism without a definitive answer proving that nothing wrong is going on. All I'm doing in this thread is asking questions, Mor. I think it is reasonable to expect answers to them, and not simply to assume that it's all good until proven otherwise, especially given the present situation in our Church.
Mor Ephrem said:
I can't make out all of his words over the voice of the translator, maybe someone else here can?
I can make out enough to hear that the translation is not misrepresenting the gist of what Schmidt-Rieding is saying. Why would we assume that it was?
Mor Ephrem said:
I wouldn't put much stock in the narration, as journalists routinely get basic things about religion very wrong.
A fair point, and this may be the case with the overall story, but I don't think it is the case with Schmidt-Rieding, or as it pertains that Sayedna apparently invited the Catholics to share the grounds with his faithful.
Mor Ephrem said:
But I think it's a stretch to suggest that this statement means that he was not baptised when he joined the Coptic Church.
I am not entirely convinced, but that may indeed be true. Nevertheless, the fact remains that he considers himself to belong to two confessions.
Mor Ephrem said:
It may very well be the case that the bishop accepted his baptism by economy, but I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion from this description. It more likely means that when he was (first) baptised, it was as a Protestant (i.e., it's about his origins, not about Coptic sacramental practice).
Perhaps, but it does seem that he is still presenting himself to the wider world as a "confessing Evangelical Christian".
Mor Ephrem said:
The question I think we should ask is what he means by "belong to two denominations". Does it mean he communes in both? Or does it mean simply that he has not severed any and all ties to his former Protestant community but still continues to share in its life in some limited way? The former is certainly reprehensible. The latter needs some unpacking but may not be problematic.
I disagree. He says, "...we didn't have to leave the Protestant church. It's like having dual nationality. We belong to two denominations." There is no way to understand this that is not problematic. "Having dual nationality" and "belonging to two denominations" doesn't mean you're just showing up at your former place of worship for funerals and no longer consider yourself a part of them. I think his meaning is clear, and I will continue to take him at his word until compelling not to are presented. Thus far, none have been.
Mor Ephrem said:
Again, I wouldn't put much stock in the narration.
I wouldn't just write it off as nothing to worry about either, especially given the present situation in our Church and since it seems that the Catholics were invited to share the premises with the Copts and carry out many joint activities with them.
Mor Ephrem said:
If a guy in green robes is celebrating Mass and there's a guy in black robes standing nearby, the average journalist will conclude that they celebrated Mass together. Even by RC standards that's not true, but can we depend on a journalist to be familiar with such nuances? Unfortunately, no.
True. But again, there is context to consider. I don't think that Sayedna concelebrated with them, but I do think that there is an overall pattern of blurring the lines between us and them and creating the false impression that we are members of one Church whose fully unity is sadly impaired.
Mor Ephrem said:
Catholic priests have some leeway to improvise that part of the Mass. That's hardly the goofiest thing I've heard at that point.
And it is obvious why he is improvising in that direction. We should not endorse such tactics, even tacitly.
Mor Ephrem said:
Personally, I think it's better if Orthodox clerics avoid attending non-Orthodox services so that we don't have to post-game analyse what happened based on edited videos and what it does or doesn't imply, but for at least a hundred years bishops all over the world have thought it appropriate to do so from time to time, and the Church survives.
Agreed. But again, there is the larger context to consider in this case.
Mor Ephrem said:
Until that Copt arrives, I'm happy to substitute for him.
Like I said, I don't think that Sayedna concelebrated with them, but given the context, I don't think it is wise to write the situation - considered as a whole - off as "no big deal".
Mor Ephrem said:
Like I said, I'm not a fan, but a) I am not sure this was as problematic as you think, and b) I don't believe we should put much stock in how a secular news agency is describing this.
We should put a great deal of stock in how this will be distorted by proponents of false ecumenism in the Coptic Church, even as proponents of Protestantization in the Coptic Church distort videos of the late H.H. Pope Shenouda III, making it seem like he was on board with their agenda. Or those who ask their bishop if he is okay with "English hymns" and when he - having in mind Orthodox hymns in English, not Protestant pop song - says "Of course!", parlaying that into an endorsement of the latter.
Mor Ephrem said:
It falls to the Coptic Church herself to explain this.
I doubt any clarification will be forthcoming.
Mor Ephrem said:
The only thing obvious to me is that the "convert deacon" is alleged to have said things
I don't think there's any "alleged" about it.
Mor Ephrem said:
which, on their face, are confusing.
What he said is not simply confusing. Rather, it is an indication that he himself is unfortunately confused.
Mor Ephrem said:
I think it's a jump to assume "obviously shoddy catechesis and unquestionably wrong practice" and "dual membership in the Coptic and Protestant churches" without more information.
I think we have enough evidence to conclude that he was either not properly catechized or rejected that catechesis after baptism (?) to suit his own views on the matter.
Look, Mor, in the absence of Stavro, someone has to be Stavro. There are lots of us in the Coptic Church who have been demanding a resolution on the matters we're discussing here - in the broader sense - for 20 years or more, and what we've gotten in response has been a lot hedging and a lot of "Let Sayedna (or Abouna) handle it", and it hasn't been handled, except in H.E. Anba Serapion's Diocese, H.G. Anba Youssef's Diocese, and in Muqattam by H.G. Anba Abanoub. In its twin, barely regulated North American epicenters in (and the places it has spread to from there) and in other parts of the Diaspora, it remains unaddressed. Is it frustrating? You bet. Is speaking out against it an unpleasant task that sometimes leaves one looking like a crank? Absolutely. Am I going to stop speaking against it though, or minimize it, or help to sweep it under the rug for it to never be dealt with? No. I love my Church too much for that.
Remnkemi said:
AN, I am going to concur with Mor.
Okay.
Remnkemi said:
This video seemed to me to be another example of conflating wrong information from multiple sources. I felt the journalism was the worse part of it. You can easily tell the journalist had very grasp on the Coptic Church. It was almost like a Copt gave them the background hymn and they looped it, not acknowledging that the Coptic Church has an enormous corpus of recorded hymns. It seemed to be high school journalism at best.
Agreed!
Remnkemi said:
Secondly, the content was clearly written by someone Protestant and highly ecumenical.
True, but I feel that we (the Coptic Church) helped them to advance that agenda and played into that model.
Remnkemi said:
Given the 19th century Protestant missionary history in Egypt, this video hints at an ethnocentric view of the Coptic Church. There is so much comparison with Egypt and German culture, female freedom and roles in Coptic vs German cultures, Coptic vs German architecture. I felt like I was watching someone trying to compare apples and oranges and somehow concluded the Coptic Church is doing what the German Christians did in German.
I caught that too.
Remnkemi said:
Thirdly, I think there was a political ulterior motive for this piece. It came across as the Coptic Church in Germany is welcoming refugees in new ways (like leasing an abandoned military base) and Germany justifiably takes partial credit to the shame of other countries who refuse to help refugees. Maybe I am reading into it a little too much also. I think this video says more about Germany's view to the rest of the world compared to Germany itself.
Yes, but I think that cuts both ways. It seems that as a survival mechanism, the Coptic Church is shielding itself from the abuse that other immigrant communities might receive in Germany by ingratiating itself with the native heterodox in such a thorough way that it lends itself to the false ecumenism championed by those communities and unfortunately swallowed whole by the ignorant in our Church. We both know that there are many Copts who don't subscribe to our Church's true ecclesiology.
Remnkemi said:
Next, the convert himself seems to be very uneducated.
True. And that is unfortunately often the case. I knew a white Lutheran guy in the USA married to a Coptic girl who after baptism and marriage in our Church
COMMUNED in both churches and attended both with some regularity (with his Egyptian wife!). I told Abouna about it, and I don't know what went on from there.
Remnkemi said:
Maybe he simply used the "dual nationality" as a simple explanation for rebaptism as Mor said.
Maybe, but I don't think so for reasons articulated above. Baptism into our Church would better be described as renouncing his former citizenship, not holding dual citizenship.
Remnkemi said:
Maybe he simply doesn't understand the nuance of theological fidelity yet.
And this is indicative of poor catechesis on our part.
Remnkemi said:
I have seen many converts to Orthodoxy feel they are allowed to continue Protestant tendencies (like refusing to venerate the Virgin Mary, cautious of episcopal hierarchy, avoidance of liturgical texts and music, etc). This is a problem for all churches, not just the Coptic Church.
Yes, but it is especially pronounced among us, and unfortunately, that is sometimes due to the fact that those doing the catechesis are themselves in need of catechesis, especially as it pertains to ecclesiology.
Remnkemi said:
Maybe, this convert was not properly catechisized.
That's what I said!
Remnkemi said:
Maybe Bishop Damian didn't know his Protestant preferences when he was "confirmed". Maybe Bishop Damian thinks this simple minded convert is just blowing nonsense that is inconsequential. No one knows.
True. But again, this is indicative of shoddy catechesis.
Remnkemi said:
I just wouldn't take this convert as example of the Coptic Church in Germany.
That's a fair point. Although, as I said, the whole mélange with the heterodox depicted in the video doesn't paint a pretty picture.
Remnkemi said:
I will say that I personally have seen priests and bishops make a conscious effort to not rock the boat. They refuse to allow "liberal" ideas or actions so as not to get in trouble with the synod. There is still a conservative understanding among the synod and most clergy and bishops refuse to enact new, controversial actions without approval from the larger ecclesial body.
Agreed. But I have also seen priests and bishops make a conscious effort not to rock the boat with the heterodox by refuting their statements that we are part of one Church.
Remnkemi said:
Even Pope Tawadros was not going to allow an open ended "missionary" movement to divide the Coptic Church. Instead he had an international conference to get a better idea of how to incorporate missionary work among the Coptic Church with the approval of everyone. This is just one example. There are more.
Please elaborate on this. Are you referring to the "Lands of Immigration" conference? If so, I must sadly point out that the most Protestantizing elements in the Coptic Church were not only represented there, but have been allowed to continue with their usual
modus operandi before and after said conference. The conference did not impede them or lead to their being regulated in any way. Also, what ever came of
this official investigation? Why aren't these things being addressed?
Remnkemi said:
This is not to say we don't have our ecclesiological problems. Everyone does.
Amen. But in our Church, it seems to be allowed to fester in certain areas, like an infected wound full of pus. I was so encouraged by the Keraza article I linked to. I even talked to one of the bishops involved and he said not to worry. Disturbing things had been found, but it would be dealt with. That was four years ago, and the same stuff is still happening, all over the internet for everyone to see. Can you see, beloved brother, how this can be vexing to the soul even if Christ will surely prevail in the end? Because in the meantime, countless youth will be poisoned and lost. :'(
Remnkemi said:
This video is another example of something I wish I didn't see n because it added nothing but confusion.
Amen and amen.
