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Creation Museum Family Visit

livefreeordie

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My family and I met up with my cousin's family at the new Creation Museum in Kentucky, 4 adults and 9 kids!  I must say it was a pleasant surprise. On a purely superficial level, the exhibits were as good as any museum and the quality of everything was really world class.  The content itself was awesome and I thought they did a good job of explaining both sides of the evolution debate.  They have multiple theaters showing movies, life size exhibits, an ark exhibit that shows how it was constructed, and many other things. It also was a Bible Museum as it had life like exhibits about all parts of the Bible.  They are even rumored to be building a life size Ark and Tower of Babel in the coming years.  It's definitely worth the visit, and for you home schoolers, a great place to take your kids for a field trip as they have lots of lectures and classroom lessons.  A word of warning, there is a lot of heavy evangelical protestant rhetoric, but not so much that it gets in the way of the presentation.  And the obvious warning, if have no belief in or even a little pity for a young earth view, I would stay away.  You'll probably lose it the moment you walk in and see the little girl at the entrance playing with her pet dinosaurs! ;) Regardless, I encourage you to visit, especially if you have kids.  There is even a really nice outside park for the kids to play.
 

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livefreeordie said:
And the obvious warning, if have no belief in or even a little pity for a young earth view, I would stay away.  You'll probably lose it the moment you walk in and see the little girl at the entrance playing with her pet dinosaurs! ;)
If by "lose it" you mean burst into hysterics, I can see how that would be a danger. ;D
 

livefreeordie

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Not any more hysterical than the average person if they saw an exhibit of Jesus rising from the dead and exiting his tomb presented as fact.  But I must admit, a little weird seeing Molly and her pet dinos.  Makes one wonder, was the creator of the Flintstones a creationist? ??? Oh how we ponder the universe on Oc.net!

Riddikulus said:
If by "lose it" you mean burst into hysterics, I can see how that would be a danger. ;D
 

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If I ever have kids it will be important to take them there, otherwise they likely would not believe that people seriously believed in creation myths in the early 21st century. 
 

livefreeordie

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Since according to a recent Barna Group poll(see below), over 60% of Americans believe God created creation in 6 days, so I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of people around as they grow older to teach them the myths.  I assume you'll also take them to the "Christ rose from the dead tomb" to teach them that people believed in that myth too in the early 21st century.  Honestly, I'm not sure I believe in the actual 6 day creation thing, but it's no more crazy to a non-believer as Jesus as the Son of God.  As Christians, we are all fools to someone.

Man, this thread started out as a, "hey, took my kids to the museum" thread, and then the mud starts flying. Of course, sometimes its fun to throw a little mud! :eek:

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2007/10/taking_bible_st.html

Νεκτάριος said:
If I ever have kids it will be important to take them there, otherwise they likely would not believe that people seriously believed in creation myths in the early 21st century. 
 

livefreeordie

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How's this for a number that will instantly invoke abject horror from many members of this board and immense appreciation from some other members.  And a little head scratching by the rest. The creation museum has only been open 9 months and it already has had 350,000 visitors.
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
Man, this thread started out as a, "hey, took my kids to the museum" thread, and then the mud starts flying. Of course, sometimes its fun to throw a little mud! :eek:
Well, you have to understand the context; we've been ridiculing these people and this 'museum' for the last few years here on OC.net. This was just another opportunity to roll our eyes in disbelief at these people. ;)
 

livefreeordie

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I know you are the last person to need pointers ;), but I'm constantly amazed that people don't see how ridiculing anybody just demeans there own position.  Especially on a Christian board where humility and charity is one sure sign of a Christian, not ridiculing.  It might win points as a tactic in a debate or to swell our egos, but I doubt it's good for much else.

And especially in light of the fact that ALL of us invite ridicule by calling ourselves Christians, you would think we could at least be charitable toward one another.  When you ridicule and bash a 6-day creationist, or someone else bashes an evolutionist and accuses them of being a heretic, the only thing/person who wins is the Evil One.

We are called to love our enemies, the least we can do is to show anybody who might stumble across this board that we can love one another.

greekischristian said:
Well, you have to understand the context; we've been ridiculing these people and this 'museum' for the last few years here on OC.net. This was just another opportunity to roll our eyes in disbelief at these people. ;)
 

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livefreeordie said:
Since according to a recent Barna Group poll(see below), over 60% of Americans believe God created creation in 6 days, so I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of people around as they grow older to teach them the myths.
Thankfully such people tend to isolate themselves, and I only have to deal with such on rare occasions.

I assume you'll also take them to the "Christ rose from the dead tomb" to teach them that people believed in that myth too in the early 21st century.  Honestly, I'm not sure I believe in the actual 6 day creation thing, but it's no more crazy to a non-believer as Jesus as the Son of God.  As Christians, we are all fools to someone.
The idea of monotheism, a creator or some sort of supernatural power a la deism isn't that far fetched.  But to equate theism with the idea that a creation myth taken to its literal meaning rather than spiritual meaning is absurd.   
 

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I didn't give some general reference to monotheism, a creator, supernatural power or some other vague reference to some kind of deity or talk about theism.  I said, "Christ rose from the dead tomb" a specific event that to someone who doesn't believe in God is just as absurd as a 6-day creation.  I'm not saying if you believe "Christ rose from the dead" then you must believe in a 6-day creation or vice-versa.  Both beliefs are acts of faith.  I'm just saying it's nuts how evolutionists on the board bash and ridicule creationists when they themselves hold what are to the world absurd beliefs, namely, that Christ was born of a virgin and rose from the dead, etc.  What is going on inside of us that we can't be charitable to one another.

How exactly does 60% of the population isolate themselves from you? I'm not hiding from you! ;)



Νεκτάριος said:
Thankfully such people tend to isolate themselves, and I only have to deal with such on rare occasions.

The idea of monotheism, a creator or some sort of supernatural power a la deism isn't that far fetched.  But to equate theism with the idea that a creation myth taken to its literal meaning rather than spiritual meaning is absurd.   
 

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livefreeordie said:
I didn't give some general reference to monotheism, a creator, supernatural power or some other vague reference to some kind of deity or talk about theism.  I said, "Christ rose from the dead tomb" a specific event that to someone who doesn't believe in God is just as absurd as a 6-day creation.  I'm not saying if you believe "Christ rose from the dead" then you must believe in a 6-day creation or vice-versa.  Both beliefs are acts of faith.  I'm just saying it's nuts how evolutionists on the board bash and ridicule creationists when they themselves hold what are to the world absurd beliefs, namely, that Christ was born of a virgin and rose from the dead, etc.  What is going on inside of us that we can't be charitable to one another.
A singularity fits into the vague concept of something akin to deism.  Whether one wishes to consider that singularity to be the incarnation of Christ, the enlightenment of the Buddha or prophethood of Mohamed doesn't really matter.  It is altogether different than the modern anti-evolutionist movement that is mostly an American movement stemming from 19th-century fundamentalism noted for its general intolerance and anti-intellectualism.  This movement will probably find itself remembered in the same breathe as the persecutors of Galileo.

How exactly does 60% of the population isolate themselves from you? I'm not hiding from you! ;)
I don't live in the South. 
 

livefreeordie

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You don't live in the south!? Most of the license plates were from Ohio and Indiana! :eek:  You can't escape!

Would the following be accurate to say? You act so hostile and alarmist towards people you perceive as creationists because you fear they are intolerant anti-intellectuals who will do their best to subjugate society before they breathe their last breath as a movement. 


Νεκτάριος said:
A singularity fits into the vague concept of something akin to deism.  Whether one wishes to consider that singularity to be the incarnation of Christ, the enlightenment of the Buddha or prophethood of Mohamed doesn't really matter.  It is altogether different than the modern anti-evolutionist movement that is mostly an American movement stemming from 19th-century fundamentalism noted for its general intolerance and anti-intellectualism.  This movement will probably find itself remembered in the same breathe as the persecutors of Galileo.

I don't live in the South. 
 

livefreeordie

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I appreciate the effort to construct such a clever couple sentences! ;)  But if I walked into my philosophy class when I was at Vanderbilt and said, "I'm a Christian and I believe in God." I would get some polite smiles, some head nods, and a few slightly raised eyebrows.  But no one would be too alarmed because they would assume I was an enlightened Christian and I understood that my myths were just particularly liminal stories that flowed through the collective unconscious and found a good home in my belief system.

On the other hand, if I walked into the same class and said, "I believe Christ was 100% the son of God, he was born of a virgin, was dead and buried then rose from the dead, etc. and I believe this is all just as true as all of you sitting before me." Well, they would all be looking at me with looks of abject horror, disbelief and fear at what other crazy things my ignorance might cause me to do or believe.  The same looks and thoughts you give creationists. This is what I was talking about.  And my only point, we are all hear as Christians.  We are all hear on faith. Let's act that way towards each other.  Instead, it's like there is a pack of intellectual wolves just waiting to pounce on the ignorant masses masquerading as Orthodox Christians.

Νεκτάριος said:
A singularity fits into the vague concept of something akin to deism.  Whether one wishes to consider that singularity to be the incarnation of Christ, the enlightenment of the Buddha or prophethood of Mohamed doesn't really matter.
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
I know you are the last person to need pointers ;), but I'm constantly amazed that people don't see how ridiculing anybody just demeans there own position.  Especially on a Christian board where humility and charity is one sure sign of a Christian, not ridiculing.  It might win points as a tactic in a debate or to swell our egos, but I doubt it's good for much else.
Actually, it serves a far more powerful and subtle propaganda goal than that. Humans are, by their nature, social animals and tend to avoid activities that ostracizes them from their group. If you can cause society to ridicule (or convince society that everyone else is ridiculing) a given position, you can cause the great masses to join in and essentially undermine that position from a sociological point of view. Never underestimate the power of arguments that may be unsound or inviable in the context of an intellectual debate.

And especially in light of the fact that ALL of us invite ridicule by calling ourselves Christians, you would think we could at least be charitable toward one another.  When you ridicule and bash a 6-day creationist, or someone else bashes an evolutionist and accuses them of being a heretic, the only thing/person who wins is the Evil One.

We are called to love our enemies, the least we can do is to show anybody who might stumble across this board that we can love one another.
There are some positions that are deserving of nothing more than riducule such as Scientology, Creationism, Flat-Earth Theory, etc. Sure, you could throw up logical arguments against them, but the fact that people hold to such absurd ideas implies that they probably arn't even open to reasonable retorts.
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
You don't live in the south!? Most of the license plates were from Ohio and Indiana! :eek:  You can't escape!
Thank the gods we live in the west. ;)
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
Would the following be accurate to say? You act so hostile and alarmist towards people you perceive as creationists because you fear they are intolerant anti-intellectuals who will do their best to subjugate society before they breathe their last breath as a movement. 
Personally, I'm more concerned that these people could believe such things in spite of all the scientific data to the contrary. To me, this says that they are lazy and have not bothered to put enough effort into the objective study of biology to form an intelligent understanding of the subject. As far as I know there is no data to disprove (though there is not data to prove, either) the incarnation or resurrection which are admittedly isolated and singular events that are intended to contradict the normal actions of nature (though that whole virgin birth idea isn't nearly as far-fetched as it once was). With creationism, or geocentricism, or the flat earth theory, on the other hand, there is overwhelming scientific evidence to actually disprove them; it's not merely an issue of a lack of evidence in either direction. To hold to a view that we objectively know to be incorrect is taking religion to a whole new level.
 

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Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? ;)

Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. ;)

Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.

I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?

greekischristian said:
Actually, it serves a far more powerful and subtle propaganda goal than that. Humans are, by their nature, social animals and tend to avoid activities that ostracizes them from their group. If you can cause society to ridicule (or convince society that everyone else is ridiculing) a given position, you can cause the great masses to join in and essentially undermine that position from a sociological point of view. Never underestimate the power of arguments that may be unsound or inviable in the context of an intellectual debate.

There are some positions that are deserving of nothing more than riducule such as Scientology, Creationism, Flat-Earth Theory, etc. Sure, you could throw up logical arguments against them, but the fact that people hold to such absurd ideas implies that they probably arn't even open to reasonable retorts.
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? ;)
Originally from Herr Goebbels, of course; though you can, to an extent, find it in Cicero as well. I have read many diverse sources in the arts of rhetoric and propaganda.

Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. ;)
So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault ;)), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. ;D

Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.
Good luck with that one. I'm thinking that divinity may be a prerequisite to that approach.

I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?
Kinda, I have made no secret of my neo-platonic leanings, the One is the source and essence of all things which naturally begets the Logos, which is in large part the Reason and Logic behind these things which eminate forth from the One.
 

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Don't we do this every Sunday with communion.

"I believe this is truly thy most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious blood."

I bet if you took your Sunday cup to a lab the lab would say "looks like wine and bread to me."

We are dealing with faith my friend.  Logic only gets you so far.

greekischristian said:
To hold to a view that we objectively know to be incorrect is taking religion to a whole new level.
 

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livefreeordie said:
You don't live in the south!? Most of the license plates were from Ohio and Indiana! :eek:  You can't escape!
Whatever.  The Midwest is just as goofy as the South.  I'm very happy to live on the West Coast. 

Would the following be accurate to say? You act so hostile and alarmist towards people you perceive as creationists because you fear they are intolerant anti-intellectuals who will do their best to subjugate society before they breathe their last breath as a movement. 
Considering that there have been many attempts to include their religious views to the exclusion of scientific views in classrooms across the US, I'd say that'd be accurate. 

livefreeordie said:
I appreciate the effort to construct such a clever couple sentences! ;)  But if I walked into my philosophy class when I was at Vanderbilt and said, "I'm a Christian and I believe in God." I would get some polite smiles, some head nods, and a few slightly raised eyebrows.  But no one would be too alarmed because they would assume I was an enlightened Christian and I understood that my myths were just particularly liminal stories that flowed through the collective unconscious and found a good home in my belief system.

On the other hand, if I walked into the same class and said, "I believe Christ was 100% the son of God, he was born of a virgin, was dead and buried then rose from the dead, etc. and I believe this is all just as true as all of you sitting before me." Well, they would all be looking at me with looks of abject horror, disbelief and fear at what other crazy things my ignorance might cause me to do or believe.  The same looks and thoughts you give creationists. This is what I was talking about.  And my only point, we are all hear as Christians.  We are all hear on faith. Let's act that way towards each other.  Instead, it's like there is a pack of intellectual wolves just waiting to pounce on the ignorant masses masquerading as Orthodox Christians.
The reason for that abject horror is the reputation that Christians have earned for themselves.  And based upon our track record we should be thought of with suspicion.  This evolution debate is a perfect example of it.  Why are so many Orthodox Christians abandoning our rich and beautiful patristic tradition to hop on the bandwagon of a movement that is newer than the icons in many of our churches? 
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
Don't we do this every Sunday with communion.

"I believe this is truly thy most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious blood."

I bet if you took your Sunday cup to a lab the lab would say "looks like wine and bread to me."
Every Sunday?!?!? Oh right... ;)

This is only a problem if you take the Latin doctrine of transubstantiation too seriously. If you take the approach that while the energies that manifest the bread and wine are unchanged and it is the essence that is altered through the consecration, you keep the whole issue in the realm of metaphysics and don't run into the rational problems.
 

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Propaganda is propaganda and ridicule is ridicule and you bring back fond memories of sand table strategy sessions in the Marines where half the guys had God as a co-pilot and the other half Jim Bean and pole dancers.  I smelled you out in about 2 posts! ;)

greekischristian said:
So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault ;)), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. ;D
 

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Of course creationists would basically say the same thing, it's not about being rational in a human sense, if God said the earth is 6000 old it is and if it appears to be older you just aren't seeing it his way.

So really, you are closer to a creationist than you think!  You both throw out the rational when it gets in the way of your belief.

greekischristian said:
Every Sunday?!?!? Oh right... ;)

This is only a problem if you take the Latin doctrine of transubstantiation too seriously. If you take the approach that while the energies that manifest the bread and wine are unchanged and it is the essence that is altered through the consecration, you keep the whole issue in the realm of metaphysics and don't run into the rational problems.
 

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livefreeordie said:
Propaganda is propaganda and ridicule is ridicule and you bring back fond memories of sand table strategy sessions in the Marines where half the guys had God as a co-pilot and the other half Jim Bean and pole dancers.  I smelled you out in about 2 posts! ;)
Eh, most people can figure it out that quickly...it's probably the whiskey on my breath. ;D
 

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I don't know, you'd have to ask them.  I haven't stated what I believe and you haven't asked.  You've just seemed to jump to conclusions.  I just wanted to talk about my trip!!! :eek:

Νεκτάριος said:
The reason for that abject horror is the reputation that Christians have earned for themselves.  And based upon our track record we should be thought of with suspicion.  This evolution debate is a perfect example of it.  Why are so many Orthodox Christians abandoning our rich and beautiful patristic tradition to hop on the bandwagon of a movement that is newer than the icons in many of our churches? 
 

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livefreeordie said:
Of course creationists would basically say the same thing, it's not about being rational in a human sense, if God said the earth is 6000 old it is and if it appears to be older you just aren't seeing it his way.
Then we can only conclude that God is a devious trickster...not that that's a theoretical impossibility, it's just not the God I personally worship.

So really, you are closer to a creationist than you think!  You both throw out the rational when it gets in the way of your belief.
Nah, I just develop crafty philosophical arguments to get around the silly theology that I can...it's far easier than the approach I am compelled to take with the theology for which I cannot devise such arguments; then I must dismiss and ridicule it, which tends to upset a lot of people. ;)
 

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A trickster, or maybe we just aren't seeing it his way. ???

Be careful your crafty arguments don't someday box yourself into a bad place.  A god of logic can easily become a god of ego and when that happens we can get very dark, very quick.

That's why I've always loved Jesus's teaching that we must come to him as Children.  While logic can help us on the way, ultimately we can only meet Christ as children. 


greekischristian said:
Then we can only conclude that God is a devious trickster...not that that's a theoretical impossibility, it's just not the God I personally worship.

Nah, I just develop crafty philosophical arguments to get around the silly theology that I can...it's far easier than the approach I am compelled to take with the theology for which I cannot devise such arguments; then I must dismiss and ridicule it, which tends to upset a lot of people. ;)
 

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And do you know what the beauty of this discussion is?  Anyone at all curious about the museum will be much more likely to go, if for no other reason than to see what all the hubbub is about.  And for that, I thank you all! ;D
 

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livefreeordie said:
A trickster, or maybe we just aren't seeing it his way. ???

Be careful your crafty arguments don't someday box yourself into a bad place.  A god of logic can easily become a god of ego and when that happens we can get very dark, very quick.

That's why I've always loved Jesus's teaching that we must come to him as Children.  While logic can help us on the way, ultimately we can only meet Christ as children. 
'When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.'
 

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livefreeordie said:
And do you know what the beauty of this discussion is?  Anyone at all curious about the museum will be much more likely to go, if for no other reason than to see what all the hubbub is about.  And for that, I thank you all! ;D
The 'museum' is too over-the-top to have any real propaganda value; let people go, the only people it will convince are those who already accept creationism as dogma.
 

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Νεκτάριος said:
If I ever have kids it will be important to take them there, otherwise they likely would not believe that people seriously believed in creation myths in the early 21st century. 
Sadly, Nektarios, the myth seems to be destined to be taught as fact for a little longer. I have family members who homeschool their children using the creation pseudo-science material as the mainstay of their science curriculum.
 

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livefreeordie said:
And do you know what the beauty of this discussion is?  Anyone at all curious about the museum will be much more likely to go, if for no other reason than to see what all the hubbub is about.  And for that, I thank you all! ;D
People deserve a break - a trip to see something with such humourous potential might indeed be beneficial. Laughter is, afterall, good medicine. 
 

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livefreeordie said:
I know you are the last person to need pointers ;), but I'm constantly amazed that people don't see how ridiculing anybody just demeans there own position.  Especially on a Christian board where humility and charity is one sure sign of a Christian, not ridiculing.  It might win points as a tactic in a debate or to swell our egos, but I doubt it's good for much else.

And especially in light of the fact that ALL of us invite ridicule by calling ourselves Christians, you would think we could at least be charitable toward one another.  When you ridicule and bash a 6-day creationist, or someone else bashes an evolutionist and accuses them of being a heretic, the only thing/person who wins is the Evil One.

We are called to love our enemies, the least we can do is to show anybody who might stumble across this board that we can love one another.
To some extent, I agree. Yet, on the other hand, sometimes love should be tough.
 

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Everyone who believes in God is a creationist. All creationists are not 6 day creationists.

You have young earth creationists, old earth creationists, and Theistic evolutionists.



But they are all creationists.




JNORM888
 

Aristocles

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Sorry Heorhij. I'm both an evolutionist and a creationist (albeit not 6 day), think intelligent design is suspect, and have no problem juxtaposing any of these beliefs with my faith.
 

livefreeordie

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I said Jesus, not Paul.  GIC, are you getting all bible quoting on me!  :eek:

greekischristian said:
'When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.'
 

livefreeordie

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Man, bringing up creation and watching heads spin is more fun than smashing pennies on a train track!  And that wasn't even my intention.  Something tells me I could write a 1000 word post on late byzantine iconography and if one sentence mentioned creationism feathers would fly and we'd rehash a conversation that's been had on this list a hundred times.  :D

Of course, it's really sad.  I post about a trip my family takes and because creation is involved people start licking their chops. But within minutes of this post, I posted a story about a modern day miracle worker and my personal experience with a spiritual daughter of his.  And it gets one reply, from a moderator.

That alone speaks volumes.
 
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