Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 163 37.6%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 198 45.6%

  • Total voters
    434

NorthernPines

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Riddikulus said:
Nebelpfade said:
NorthernPines said:
Dawkin's new book "The Greatest Show on Earth" is probably going to be the new definitive defense for the evidence of evolution but some people might be opposed to it just because it's a book by Richard Dawkins. (I'm reading it now and it is truly amazing how much new evidence has been dug up in just the last couple of years) However Shermer shows how Evolution in no way affects religious belief, and is pretty good at just showing how science works, while Dawkins is somewhat more technical, and of course, comes across a bit harsh in his writing at times.
I'd definitely recommend Dawkins' book; once I started reading it, I couldn't put it down.  It strikes a nice balance between readability and the technical nature of the material.  Obviously though, it is still a primer when it comes to evolution.  If you want to really dive into the theoretical aspects of natural selection, it is time to pick up some scientific journals.
Oh dear, another book to order! BTW, I got Thank God for Evolution and am about half way through.
I just finished The Greatest Show on Earth and it really is a great book. Even though people might be put off by Dawkins just because of who he is, I'd definitely recommend it. Dawkins is a clear, concise, and articulate writer, and goes into great depth of the evidence that is there, while recommending a few other books as well. Frankly after reading Dawkins' new book, I can't imagine how anyone could read it, and come away and NOT accept the fact of evolution. Anyone who does is as Dawkins says, a "history denier". :)

 

Iconodule

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This current debate will continue to go nowhere because there is a basic philosophical disagreement, going far beyond "creation vs. evolution", which is largely unacknowledged here by both sides.
At some point, I or someone else should open a new thread discussing philosophy and cosmology from a Christian perspective. I don't have the energy for it right now, so I'll just close with this:

"How do you know but ev'ry bird that cuts the airy way
Is an immense world of delight, clos'd by your senses five?" - William Blake
 

NorthernPines

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ytterbiumanalyst said:
Demetrios G. said:
Observable? Who was their to observe it? ;)
Who was their what? ;D

Darwin, for one. All of us can reproduce his observations. Hence, it's science.


Not to mention evolution is happening right now. It just so happens that most animals and plants evolve on such large time scales that our human lives are simply too short to see it. And yet, there are some cases where we can see evolution at work, even over the last 100-150 years which 'The Greatest Show on Earth' actually goes into those examples. The Guppy study is a great example cited in the book. And of course microscopic organisms evolve much faster because their lifespans are much shorter.

Hopefully one day all this anti-evolution stuff will pass. I mean at one time people used to say/believe a sun centered solar system was atheistic, now almost no one says that. So maybe in 400 years time, Christians will stop saying evolution is inherently atheistic too. It's just too bad it takes us Christians so long to "catch" up, because at one time some of the greatest scientists ever we in fact Christians.

 

PeterTheAleut

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Iconodule said:
This current debate will continue to go nowhere because there is a basic philosophical disagreement, going far beyond "creation vs. evolution", which is largely unacknowledged here by both sides.
I acknowledge it, all right.  It's that much larger philosophical disagreement that I'm trying to address. ;)
 

ytterbiumanalyst

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NorthernPines said:
Hopefully one day all this anti-evolution stuff will pass. I mean at one time people used to say/believe a sun centered solar system was atheistic, now almost no one says that. So maybe in 400 years time, Christians will stop saying evolution is inherently atheistic too. It's just too bad it takes us Christians so long to "catch" up, because at one time some of the greatest scientists ever we in fact Christians.
Agreed. And you're right about Christian scientists: For example, Darwin himself was an ordained minister.
 

greekischristian

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Iconodule said:
This current debate will continue to go nowhere because there is a basic philosophical disagreement, going far beyond "creation vs. evolution", which is largely unacknowledged here by both sides.
At some point, I or someone else should open a new thread discussing philosophy and cosmology from a Christian perspective. I don't have the energy for it right now, so I'll just close with this:

"How do you know but ev'ry bird that cuts the airy way
Is an immense world of delight, clos'd by your senses five?" - William Blake
Every bird and every other creature is an immense world of delight, a wonderful and beautiful thing made all the more so by evolution. How can one fully appreciate the bird without an appreciation for the genetic source code (DNA), the complexity of it's organic neural network, protein syntheses, protein folding, immune systems, cell signaling, etc, etc. That a bird can fly is an interesting curiosity, the how and why are fascinating and enlightening.
 

Demetrios G.

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NorthernPines said:
Riddikulus said:
Nebelpfade said:
NorthernPines said:
Dawkin's new book "The Greatest Show on Earth" is probably going to be the new definitive defense for the evidence of evolution but some people might be opposed to it just because it's a book by Richard Dawkins. (I'm reading it now and it is truly amazing how much new evidence has been dug up in just the last couple of years) However Shermer shows how Evolution in no way affects religious belief, and is pretty good at just showing how science works, while Dawkins is somewhat more technical, and of course, comes across a bit harsh in his writing at times.
I'd definitely recommend Dawkins' book; once I started reading it, I couldn't put it down.  It strikes a nice balance between readability and the technical nature of the material.  Obviously though, it is still a primer when it comes to evolution.  If you want to really dive into the theoretical aspects of natural selection, it is time to pick up some scientific journals.
Oh dear, another book to order! BTW, I got Thank God for Evolution and am about half way through.
I just finished The Greatest Show on Earth and it really is a great book. Even though people might be put off by Dawkins just because of who he is, I'd definitely recommend it. Dawkins is a clear, concise, and articulate writer, and goes into great depth of the evidence that is there, while recommending a few other books as well. Frankly after reading Dawkins' new book, I can't imagine how anyone could read it, and come away and NOT accept the fact of evolution. Anyone who does is as Dawkins says, a "history denier". :)
It depends on who's history you believe. ;)
 

Alveus Lacuna

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History is interpretation.  Read any basic summary of the nature of historiography, and you will see that we are all denying many histories, as we all deny many gods.
 

Demetrios G.

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Alveus Lacuna said:
History is interpretation.  Read any basic summary of the nature of historiography, and you will see that we are all denying many histories, as we all deny many gods.
It depends on who's "interpretation" of history you believe then. Now don't get me wrong. I'm very open when it comes to these matters. I'm neither denying evolution nor embracing a fundamentalist view of creation. But what I don't pretend to do is to, is demand to know something that is for the most part unknowable. The spectrum is just to large with ample missing piece in between to embrace fully a fundamentalist view of creation. You see what you accuse the Protestants of doing, you yourselves are doing.
 

Iconodule

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GiC said:
Iconodule said:
This current debate will continue to go nowhere because there is a basic philosophical disagreement, going far beyond "creation vs. evolution", which is largely unacknowledged here by both sides.
At some point, I or someone else should open a new thread discussing philosophy and cosmology from a Christian perspective. I don't have the energy for it right now, so I'll just close with this:

"How do you know but ev'ry bird that cuts the airy way
Is an immense world of delight, clos'd by your senses five?" - William Blake
Every bird and every other creature is an immense world of delight, a wonderful and beautiful thing made all the more so by evolution. How can one fully appreciate the bird without an appreciation for the genetic source code (DNA), the complexity of it's organic neural network, protein syntheses, protein folding, immune systems, cell signaling, etc, etc. That a bird can fly is an interesting curiosity, the how and why are fascinating and enlightening.
I can fully appreciate the beauty of a work of art without conducting a chemical analysis of its material components- in fact, to do the latter would detract from the former. You are still imprisoned by your "vegetable" consciousness.
 

ialmisry

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NorthernPines said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Demetrios G. said:
Observable? Who was their to observe it? ;)
Who was their what? ;D

Darwin, for one. All of us can reproduce his observations. Hence, it's science.


Not to mention evolution is happening right now. It just so happens that most animals and plants evolve on such large time scales that our human lives are simply too short to see it. And yet, there are some cases where we can see evolution at work, even over the last 100-150 years which 'The Greatest Show on Earth' actually goes into those examples. The Guppy study is a great example cited in the book. And of course microscopic organisms evolve much faster because their lifespans are much shorter.

Hopefully one day all this anti-evolution stuff will pass. I mean at one time people used to say/believe a sun centered solar system was atheistic, now almost no one says that. So maybe in 400 years time, Christians will stop saying evolution is inherently atheistic too. It's just too bad it takes us Christians so long to "catch" up, because at one time some of the greatest scientists ever we in fact Christians.
They still are.

Just curious, as I do not have the time at present to waste on Mr. Dawkins: does he explain the evolution of reproduction in bees?
 

ialmisry

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GiC said:
Iconodule said:
This current debate will continue to go nowhere because there is a basic philosophical disagreement, going far beyond "creation vs. evolution", which is largely unacknowledged here by both sides.
At some point, I or someone else should open a new thread discussing philosophy and cosmology from a Christian perspective. I don't have the energy for it right now, so I'll just close with this:

"How do you know but ev'ry bird that cuts the airy way
Is an immense world of delight, clos'd by your senses five?" - William Blake
Every bird and every other creature is an immense world of delight, a wonderful and beautiful thing made all the more so by evolution.
You're assUming again.
 

NorthernPines

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Demetrios G. said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
History is interpretation.  Read any basic summary of the nature of historiography, and you will see that we are all denying many histories, as we all deny many gods.
It depends on who's "interpretation" of history you believe then.
Interpreting history and denying history are two different things. Dawkins makes a good point that denying evolution is like denying that the Roman Empire ever existed. True, we might interprete the history of Rome differently; what did it mean, when was Rome in a "golden age", did it have a "golden age", when did it fall, did it fall or just evolve etc. But we don't deny Rome ever existed, which (from a scientific POV) Young earth creationists are doing.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm very open when it comes to these matters. I'm neither denying evolution nor embracing a fundamentalist view of creation. But what I don't pretend to do is to, is demand to know something that is for the most part unknowable. The spectrum is just to large with ample missing piece in between to embrace fully a fundamentalist view of creation. You see what you accuse the Protestants of doing, you yourselves are doing.
What missing pieces? Are you refering to "missing links"? Well they actually aren't missing anymore and haven't been missing for a long time. I recommended some good books on the subject, as did others. The evidence really is overwhelming. People of course are free to choose to ignore this evidence, it is certainly their right; but they shouldn't dress it up as either science like the Young earth Creationists, or claim that it is some requirement to ignore the reality of the natural world in order to be a Christian. As has been pointed out, some of the greatest scientists ever we Christians who when discovering that "the bible/Church was wrong" on an issue of the natural world, marveled even MORE at God's glory.

In the end, most people are blissfully unaware of the fact of evolution, and that knowledge really doesn't affect people in their every day lives on a personal level. The problem is if Fundamentalist Creationism ever becomes a matter of public policy it could affect ALL our lives quite drastically, and mostly for the worse. Imagine no antibiotics, polio vaccines, no modern garden vegetables like corn, cabbage, disease resistant tomatoes, or no golden retrievers, bulldogs, breeds of house cats etc. All of these are the result of the reality of evolutionary biology, and to forbid the teaching of these sciences say 80 years ago, would have meant polio would still be rampant. Now project that into the future and imagine what might be prevented from being discovered or developed if for example the most extreme Creationists had their way? Granted the most extreme creationists are a minority, and I doubt anyone here fits into that group, but the reason it's important is the same reason it's important for people to know the earth revolves around the sun and takes a year to do it. (aprox. half of Americans get that wrong in polls every year, and its a true or false question  :eek:)

It might be asked, "why does that matter, I personally don't care"....but it matters because it is humanities inherent curiosity of the natural world that has lead to so many good things, without that curiosity, the world, and Christianity would be very different than it presently is.

BTW I'm hardly a technology freak, or a lover of the "modern world"...I'm much of the mind of Tolkien....I prefer non mechanized farming/gardening, away from industry, where the stars can still can be seen, and where the loudest noise is an owl, or wolves howling at midnight. I'm very much a Hobbit, though I aspire to be an Elf. :)

But the reality of evolution has none the less improved our lives, deny that reality, and we would deny future improvements that benefit us all. Even if it were never to be public policy, it's still not a good thing when people don't and don't care that the earth goes around the sun. I would imagine that that attitude is fairly recent in human civilization, as it seems to be ancient people pondered these questions much more (why do the seasons come and go so regularly, why does the sun always rise in the east etc) the ironic thing is we now know why these things happen, but many people today simply don't care. It's a flip flop of truly philosophical proportions. :)

 

NorthernPines

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ialmisry said:
They still are.
Yes I know some of the greatest scientists around are still Christians. I named 3 well known ones in a previous post. But I think at one time there was a larger proportion of Christian scientists than there are today.

Just curious, as I do not have the time at present to waste on Mr. Dawkins: does he explain the evolution of reproduction in bees?
Not that I recall in the Greatest Show on Earth, though he goes into ants quite extensively at one point as well as touching on at least 50 other species. He does talk about the evolutionary relationship between bees and flowers and pollination somewhat extensively. But as others have said, the book is most definitely a primer, though it's the most in depth primer I've personally read on the subject.

BTW, why do you feel like reading Dawkins would be a waste of time? Like him or hate him, he happens to be one of the premiere biologists in the world today. That doesn't mean I agree with his philosophical conclusions but as a biologist he's hard to beat. And this book anyways is quite mildly written, or at least I thought so.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Wow. My internet was knocked down for a few days due to the snow we had here in Mississippi, so that's why I haven't been able to respond for a while. Honestly, the time away was very refreshing.

I don't know why I am blamed for "stirring up a hornet's nest" when I merely responded to the OP by posting some pertinent quotes by blessed Father Seraphim Rose. But that's fine. I've made my points, FWIW, and so I think I'll now shake the dust from my feet and move on to more spiritually productive things. I'll revisit this thread from time to time in order to help others who are being bullied by the militant evolutionists on here.

BTW, thanks for having my back JNORM! ;)


Selam
 

PeterTheAleut

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Wow. My internet was knocked down for a few days due to the snow we had here in Mississippi, so that's why I haven't been able to respond for a while. Honestly, the time away was very refreshing.

I don't know why I am blamed for "stirring up a hornet's nest" when I merely responded to the OP by posting some pertinent quotes by blessed Father Seraphim Rose. But that's fine. I've made my points, FWIW, and so I think I'll now shake the dust from my feet and move on to more spiritually productive things. I'll revisit this thread from time to time in order to help others who are being bullied by the militant evolutionists on here.

BTW, thanks for having my back JNORM! ;)


Selam
You just like finding bullies, don't you?  There's no need to look for them under every rock. ;)
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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PeterTheAleut said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Wow. My internet was knocked down for a few days due to the snow we had here in Mississippi, so that's why I haven't been able to respond for a while. Honestly, the time away was very refreshing.

I don't know why I am blamed for "stirring up a hornet's nest" when I merely responded to the OP by posting some pertinent quotes by blessed Father Seraphim Rose. But that's fine. I've made my points, FWIW, and so I think I'll now shake the dust from my feet and move on to more spiritually productive things. I'll revisit this thread from time to time in order to help others who are being bullied by the militant evolutionists on here.

BTW, thanks for having my back JNORM! ;)


Selam
You just like finding bullies, don't you?  There's no need to look for them under every rock. ;)
I'm not looking for bullies under those rocks, just fossils of intermediate species. ;)


Selam
 

PeterTheAleut

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Wow. My internet was knocked down for a few days due to the snow we had here in Mississippi, so that's why I haven't been able to respond for a while. Honestly, the time away was very refreshing.

I don't know why I am blamed for "stirring up a hornet's nest" when I merely responded to the OP by posting some pertinent quotes by blessed Father Seraphim Rose. But that's fine. I've made my points, FWIW, and so I think I'll now shake the dust from my feet and move on to more spiritually productive things. I'll revisit this thread from time to time in order to help others who are being bullied by the militant evolutionists on here.

BTW, thanks for having my back JNORM! ;)


Selam
You just like finding bullies, don't you?  There's no need to look for them under every rock. ;)
I'm not looking for bullies under those rocks, just fossils of intermediate species. ;)


Selam
Well, you seem to find a lot of "bullies" here.
 
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