Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 163 37.6%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 198 45.6%

  • Total voters
    434

Rufus

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
1,337
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
30
Location
Massachusetts
deusveritasest said:
TryingtoConvert said:
I reject Evolution because how can their be so many different species all derived from one source?
Different adaptations appropriate for different environments.

TryingtoConvert said:
Just like a fish going up a beach and somehow forms legs, that fish would have died outside of the water! Ridiculous
LOL

Evolution does not occur within the lifetime of an individual. It is a consequence of mutations set at conception.
Since TryingtoConvert is a non-believer, he's surely being facetious.
 

Rafa999

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
1,591
Reaction score
0
Points
0
To take the allegorical meaning of scripture over the literal is exactly what origen who was the reason for that canon of the 7th council was doing. Exactly what evolutionists do as well. Did God create us from earth or from something else? Did he breathe life into an ape or Adam? Was Adam a mortal evolved ape ? Did Eve come from his rib or not? Were plants created before the sun or not? The ACOE interprets first the literal then the figurative, any other method is disrespectful with the scriptures since Christ blessed this mentioned exegetical method of taking the literal meaning first.

Where is my immortal ape ancestor? Show me all the fossils in the world, but I just want something that proves your not violating the canon.
 
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
319
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Rafa999 said:
To take the allegorical meaning of scripture over the literal is exactly what origen who was the reason for that canon of the 7th council was doing. Exactly what evolutionists do as well. Did God create us from earth or from something else? Did he breathe life into an ape or Adam? Was Adam a mortal evolved ape ? Did Eve come from his rib or not? Were plants created before the sun or not? The ACOE interprets first the literal then the figurative, any other method is disrespectful with the scriptures since Christ blessed this mentioned exegetical method of taking the literal meaning first.

Where is my immortal ape ancestor? Show me all the fossils in the world, but I just want something that proves your not violating the canon.
You know, it is rather curious that you are citing in this argument a canon from a council your church doesn't support, and which condemns Nestorius, who founded your church, as "impious". Rather inconsistent.
 

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
By "the beginning of creation", do you mean when God spoke "Let there be light"?
 

Heorhij

Merarches
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
8,574
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
62
Location
Columbus, MS, USA (Originally from Ukraine)
Website
www.muw.edu
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
Let it teach that if it really does, although I doubt it. I am unaware of any Ecumenical Council that pronounced 7000 literal 365-day years to be the literal age of the literal physical universe.
 

Marc1152

Hoplitarches
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
14,838
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
67
Location
Maryland
laconicstudent said:
deusveritasest said:
Rafa999 said:
Surely your joking when you say that God created our souls in the image of an ape right?
Most likely we are a type of ape.  ;)
Oh, we are.  ;)

Unless someone here wishes to argue we don't belong in Hominoidea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominoidea

If someone does make that argument, I really must insist they explain which superfamily of Catarrhini they would then place humanity in, and support their position. :)
This is not that complicated. God is the source of all creation. God love Apes, he loved Cro magnon Men,  he loves my dog Ziggy (very much btw) and he loves us.

God infuses everything with his presence. He is the beginning, middle and end of all that exists.  God creates. It is in his divine nature to create. 
The Scriptures tell us he deems our creation as good.

In the beginning he created ex nilo ( out of nothing).

It didn't happen in seven days as we Men experience a "Day". That's called Poetry. It tells us God's heart. Don't let it drive you crazy :)  
 

jckstraw72

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,174
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Jetavan said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
By "the beginning of creation", do you mean when God spoke "Let there be light"?
you can read about it here http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era
 

jckstraw72

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,174
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Heorhij said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
Let it teach that if it really does, although I doubt it. I am unaware of any Ecumenical Council that pronounced 7000 literal 365-day years to be the literal age of the literal physical universe.
thats alright, an Ecumenical Council isnt the only way the Church conveys Her beliefs.
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
Does everyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church have this same calendar?  To me this is strictly a Byzantine calendar.  We have Coptic calendars, Ethiopian calendars, Syriac calendars, Armenian calendars, and of course there is the Gregorian calendar.

This year in the Coptic calendar  is 1727.  1,727 years ago, St. Pope Peter of Alexandria was martyred to end an era of martyrdom for the Coptic Church.  I guess my church cares more about the lives of saints than the beginning of creation.
 

Heorhij

Merarches
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
8,574
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
62
Location
Columbus, MS, USA (Originally from Ukraine)
Website
www.muw.edu
jckstraw72 said:
Heorhij said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
Let it teach that if it really does, although I doubt it. I am unaware of any Ecumenical Council that pronounced 7000 literal 365-day years to be the literal age of the literal physical universe.
thats alright, an Ecumenical Council isnt the only way the Church conveys Her beliefs.
The Church, or some people in the Church? I am asking because if the Church really taught biblical literalism, I am sure my priest would have already told me so.
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
deusveritasest said:
One often overlooked fact here is that it is possible to acknowledge the current reality of biological evolution while denying that it was involved in God's Creation.
If that's true, God would not be so careless as to leave radioactive dating methods to fool us into thinking something was much much much much much more than 7500+ years old.
 

jckstraw72

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,174
Reaction score
0
Points
0
deusveritasest said:
jckstraw72 said:
Sleeper said:
Rafa999 said:
Sleeper said:
jckstraw72 said:
Sleeper said:
jckstraw72 said:
Sleeper said:
jckstraw72 said:
ok, so you go with option A then ... you believe there was death in Paradise

No, I believe there was death and then there was the possibility of immortality for the creatures upon whom God breathed His Spirit.  There was death for other natural creatures, yes of course.

I really don't see what other conclusion there is than the fanciful 6-day instantaneous special-creation approach of a literal Genesis reading.  There is nothing to back that up empirically.  It has nothing to do with "secular science" versus Church teaching, but has everything to do with what we observe about the universe around us.
the other conclusion is that the Church is right - there really was a Paradise in which nothing died, and since there are no remains from this period, it is totally beyond science - there is nothing for science to study from the period of Paradise.

and im not convinced that what we observe about the universe around us in the 20th and 21st centuries is really the key to 7500 yrs ago in Paradise and then just after the Fall. what reason do i have to believe that today can tell me about Paradise?
The Church doesn't have a position on it, and even if it did, it would without a doubt be compatible with the findings of genuine scientific discovery.  Truth is truth.
youre right, truth is truth. thus, evolution must not be true.

the Church does indeed have a harmonious teaching about Genesis - the Scriptures, Patristics, hymns, canons, and icons of the Church all tell the same story
And that story is in no way contrary to what science has discovered about the nature of the universe and life as we know it.

Canon of 7th Ecumenical council of Orthodox and RCC disagrees. With "evolution" not science of course.
It doesn't though.  Evolution being true does not negate Adam not being a "mortal" created in the image of God without sin.
so then youre prepared to scientifically demonstrate that there were immortal people at one point? or that immortality is possible?
Why would it be necessary to demonstrate?

It is not necessary to demonstrate something as true for it to be compatible with demonstrable science.
TE's are trying to be scientifically accurate, thats the whole point here. so how does immortality fit into that? im not aware of any scientific theory or observations that demonstrate immortality, so it wouldnt be scientific to believe in immortality. in evolution everything dies .... so for TE's who still believe that man was meant to be immortal, theyre rejecting "science" too -- they just dont reject as much as the Creationists do. TE is just an amalgam of science and theology that ends up not really accepting either.
 

jckstraw72

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,174
Reaction score
0
Points
0
minasoliman said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
Does everyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church have this same calendar?  To me this is strictly a Byzantine calendar.  We have Coptic calendars, Ethiopian calendars, Syriac calendars, Armenian calendars, and of course there is the Gregorian calendar.

This year in the Coptic calendar  is 1727.  1,727 years ago, St. Pope Peter of Alexandria was martyred to end an era of martyrdom for the Coptic Church.  I guess my church cares more about the lives of saints than the beginning of creation.
i know its used in Russia too. in 1492 there was big eschatological hype in Russia because according to the Church it was the year 7000. ive also personally seen this dating used in Churches in Romania.
 

jckstraw72

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,174
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Heorhij said:
jckstraw72 said:
Heorhij said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
The Church year will soon be 7519, showing exactly when orthodox Christianity teaches the beginning of creation was.
Let it teach that if it really does, although I doubt it. I am unaware of any Ecumenical Council that pronounced 7000 literal 365-day years to be the literal age of the literal physical universe.
thats alright, an Ecumenical Council isnt the only way the Church conveys Her beliefs.
The Church, or some people in the Church? I am asking because if the Church really taught biblical literalism, I am sure my priest would have already told me so.
ive provided a wealth of evidence throughout this thread that the Fathers interpreted Genesis literally - Fathers from both the Antiochian and Alexandrian traditions.

but the point is that the Church speaks through more avenues than just the Ecumenical Councils - there are canons, Patristics, icons, hymns, etc.
 

jckstraw72

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,174
Reaction score
0
Points
0
minasoliman said:
deusveritasest said:
One often overlooked fact here is that it is possible to acknowledge the current reality of biological evolution while denying that it was involved in God's Creation.
If that's true, God would not be so careless as to leave radioactive dating methods to fool us into thinking something was much much much much much more than 7500+ years old.
ok - wait .... youre attributing dating methods to God, but the Fathers who wrote on Genesis were just writing personal opinions?! of course all of creation speaks of God ... but God directly speaks to us in the Church ...
 

Heorhij

Merarches
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
8,574
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
62
Location
Columbus, MS, USA (Originally from Ukraine)
Website
www.muw.edu
jckstraw72 said:
ive provided a wealth of evidence throughout this thread that the Fathers interpreted Genesis literally - Fathers from both the Antiochian and Alexandrian traditions.
But their opinions are not binding. They aren't Church Dogmatics. In light of scientific evidence that emerged some 1,400 years after the Fathers, literal interpretation of the fist chapters of genesis is simply unsustainable, untenable.

jckstraw72 said:
but the point is that the Church speaks through more avenues than just the Ecumenical Councils - there are canons, Patristics, icons, hymns, etc.
If anything from the above list says that the Sun orbits the Earth or that the universe is exactly 365x7,500 days old - I do not believe it and I will do all I can to persuade others to not believe it either. I am the Church, too. :)
 

Heorhij

Merarches
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
8,574
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
62
Location
Columbus, MS, USA (Originally from Ukraine)
Website
www.muw.edu
minasoliman said:
deusveritasest said:
One often overlooked fact here is that it is possible to acknowledge the current reality of biological evolution while denying that it was involved in God's Creation.
If that's true, God would not be so careless as to leave radioactive dating methods to fool us into thinking something was much much much much much more than 7500+ years old.
I knew one US Evangelical fundamentalist who used to say, "OK folks, all I can say based on the assumption that these radio dating data are true is that God DELIBERATELTY created our planet, as well as the entire Universe, OLD. That was his plan. The alternative - to disbelieve the Bible - is not acceptable."

I am extremely sad that this fanatical, blind Biblical literalism penetrates into Orthodoxy as well...
 

Sleeper

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
1,350
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
U.S.
Indeed Heorhij, it is very sad.  The Baptist church I grew up in was extremely literal in its take on creationism and eventually it was just embarrassing. I don't understand why so many Christians think they need to turn their brains off.

It's quite clear to me that the Fathers were working within the framework they had at they time, as any human person would.  Further scientific discoveries do not negate the truth of what they taught.  It would be one thing if there were some extremely important truth that was totally riding on a young earth, the denial of which would be detrimental to our Faith and a shunning of the Church, but as far as I'm aware, no such thing exists.

The Fathers communicate to us spiritual truth, the truth of which does not necessitate the scientific framework they had available to them.
 
Top