Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 163 37.6%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 198 45.6%

  • Total voters
    434

Kerdy

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Pericles said:
Romaios said:
Every day, with your morning and evening prayers, until you are cured of your "Hellenism".
"Orthodoxy is Hellenism" Ecuemical Patriarch Bartholemew I
You already posted that.  I believe there were some responses.
 

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Kerdy said:
You already posted that.  I believe there were some responses.
If you're touting for business as a messenger you just failed the interview. Already saw it and addressed it, thanks. Besides it wasn't me that said it, it was the EP ;)
 

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Pericles said:
Kerdy said:
You already posted that.  I believe there were some responses.
If you're touting for business as a messenger you just failed the interview. Already saw it and addressed it, thanks.
Chase your tail all you want. 
 

Asteriktos

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"Well...uh...it's lost."
By "proponents of Darwinism" giving this explanation (and others in the quote), did the good doctor mean 6th graders? The natural sciences were some of my worst subjects, and I don't have a doctorate, but I would be happy to learn him up some time if he'd like.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Asteriktos said:
"Well...uh...it's lost."
By "proponents of Darwinism" giving this explanation (and others in the quote), did the good doctor mean 6th graders? The natural sciences were some of my worst subjects, and I don't have a doctorate, but I would be happy to learn him up some time if he'd like.

Well... 109 pages into this thread and nobody has demonstrated it yet. The only answer we get  is, "You just don't understand science." But I think Dr. Ben Carson, the first doctor to successfully separate conjoined twins, understands science pretty well. So, as much as I respect your intelligence, I think I'll trust Dr. Ben Carson on this one.  ;)



Selam
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Asteriktos said:
"Well...uh...it's lost."
By "proponents of Darwinism" giving this explanation (and others in the quote), did the good doctor mean 6th graders? The natural sciences were some of my worst subjects, and I don't have a doctorate, but I would be happy to learn him up some time if he'd like.

Well... 109 pages into this thread and nobody has demonstrated it yet. The only answer we get  is, "You just don't understand science." But I think Dr. Ben Carson, the first doctor to successfully separate conjoined twins, understands science pretty well. So, as much as I respect your intelligence, I think I'll trust Dr. Ben Carson on this one.  ;)



Selam
But he was using straw men. Surely you can see that. Have you read books by evolutionists, and do they say things like "well...uh...it's lost"?
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Jetavan said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
I like Dr. Carson, but does he offer another explanation for the past existence of Tiktaalik, Australopithecus, and Hyracotherium?

Rare anomalies in the fossil record that have the appearance of evidentiary import do not negate the overwhelming dearth of evidence in the fossil record that is normative.



Selam  
 

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May God continue to strengthen the hands of this great surgeon and enlighten him from the errors of his ways to join the Orthodox Church.
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Jetavan said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
I like Dr. Carson, but does he offer another explanation for the past existence of Tiktaalik, Australopithecus, and Hyracotherium?

Rare anomalies in the fossil record that have the appearance of evidentiary import do not negate the overwhelming dearth of evidence in the fossil record that is normative.



Selam  
There are so many fossils that there is no evidence?  ??? I'm sorry, I don't understand.
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Jetavan said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
I like Dr. Carson, but does he offer another explanation for the past existence of Tiktaalik, Australopithecus, and Hyracotherium?

Rare anomalies in the fossil record that have the appearance of evidentiary import do not negate the overwhelming dearth of evidence in the fossil record that is normative.



Selam  
So how much evidence would there have to be for you to accept it?
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:



Selam
Well, with regards to this post, I don't believe Mr. Carson (with all due respect) understands how the scientific process really works. Darwin theorized Evolution in 1859. Since then, the theory has been, added to, revised, and ultimately refined, and will continue to be until we can fully scientifically understand it. :) It's still a larger jump, with all of the evidence we have(even outside of the fossil record) against a literal genesis, to believe that the earth is 10,000 years old.

Respects,
Andrew
 

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It sure takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution.  Too bad people don't place that faith in Christ.
 

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Pericles said:
Romaios said:
Every day, with your morning and evening prayers, until you are cured of your "Hellenism".
"Orthodoxy is Hellenism" Ecuemical Patriarch Bartholemew I
\

The way you understand and argue for it, Hellenism is heresy. No point in hiding under the EP's skirt/omophorion.
 

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Pericles said:
You have no grasp of how I understand it and have misconstrued my arguments. For you Hellenism is heresy, despite the EP's approval.
I'm pretty sure the EP himself would not agree with your concept of Hellenism.

It is heretical because it's construed against Judaism. Therefore, it cannot be universal/catholic or Orthodox. If you exclude any single nation from Christ's fold, you are not in it yourself - you are with the elder brother who couldn't suffer his father to welcome the prodigal son back home. 

Romans 11:18-24

Do not be arrogant toward the branches (Jews); but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree (Hellenism/the Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree (Judaism), how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree?
 

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Romaios said:
It is heretical because it's construed against Judaism.
You are talking complete tosh and I'm certain you know it. I've construed Hellenism as precisely what it is and applied that to the OT. If you want to believe in the Genesis creation narrative be my guest but dont try to make out people that don't are not Orthodox, the results of the poll above does not support that.

Personally I would call myself an Intelligent Design proponent, rather than a creationist, and happilly accept that God created the cosmos and yet I still maintain that Genesis should be read in context and not as a scientific account of creation.

Furthermore in case you're laboring under that false impression that I'm some sort of Greek nationalist, forget it...I'm British, born bread and educated. Hellenism and Helleno-Christianity mean to me what they were intended to mean and are not part of some nationalist agenda. It's the nationalistic versions of Hellenism that have been condemned as heresy.

To be anti-Judaic with regards importing elements or attitudes associated with Judaism into Christianity is not Anti-Semitism. It is in fact quite the opposite -respect. I'm not trying to appropriate the sacred-text of another religion, you are and thats cultural imperialism. Christianity is one religion Judaism is quite another, lets keep it that way.

Christ did not create the world in 7 days, he's still creating and it's taken 13.772 billion years to date!
 

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Pericles said:
Personally I would call myself an Intelligent Design proponent, rather than a creationist, and happilly accept that God created the cosmos and yet I still maintain that Genesis should be read in context and not as a scientific account of creation.

Furthermore in case you're laboring under that false impression that I'm some sort of Greek nationalist, forget it...I'm British, born bread and educated. Hellenism and Helleno-Christianity mean to me what they were intended to mean and are not part of some nationalist agenda. It's the nationalistic versions of Hellenism that have been condemned as heresy.

To be anti-Judaic with regards importing elements or attitudes associated with Judaism into Christianity is not Anti-Semitism. It is in fact quite the opposite -respect. I'm not trying to appropriate the sacred-text of another religion, you are and thats cultural imperialism. Christianity is one religion Judaism is quite another, lets keep it that way.

Christ did not create the world in 7 days, he's still creating and it's taken 13.772 billion years to date!
Fwiw, I'm no creationist fundie either and I could define myself as a philhellene as well as a philosemite (being neither Jewish, nor Greek).

As long as you understand that the noble olive tree on which we are grafted through Christ is Judaism (while Hellenism is but a wild tree among others) and that "salvation is from the Jews" (not the Hellenes), you are in accord with St. Paul the Apostle and Orthodoxy. If you turn it around and believe the exact opposite, you cannot call yourself Christian.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Android_Rewster said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:



Selam
Well, with regards to this post, I don't believe Mr. Carson (with all due respect) understands how the scientific process really works. Darwin theorized Evolution in 1859. Since then, the theory has been, added to, revised, and ultimately refined, and will continue to be until we can fully scientifically understand it as much as is needed to make it appear plausible. :) It's still a larger jump, with all of the evidence we have(even outside of the fossil record) against a literal genesis, to believe that the earth is 10,000 years old.

Respects,
Andrew

^Edited it for you.



Selam
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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minasoliman said:
May God continue to strengthen the hands of this great surgeon and enlighten him from the errors of his ways to join the Orthodox Church.

Dear brother, please be careful. Your words seem to equate the acceptance of evolution with Orthodox enlightenment. I hope this is not your intention. Regardless of your personal passion for evolutionary philosophy, I would hope that you would not want to lead Orthodox inquirers to think that faith in evolution parallels faith in the Orthodox Church.



Selam
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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That person said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Jetavan said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
I like Dr. Carson, but does he offer another explanation for the past existence of Tiktaalik, Australopithecus, and Hyracotherium?

Rare anomalies in the fossil record that have the appearance of evidentiary import do not negate the overwhelming dearth of evidence in the fossil record that is normative.



Selam  
So how much evidence would there have to be for you to accept it?

I recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Darwin-Trial-Phillip-E-Johnson/dp/0830838317


Selam
 

minasoliman

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
minasoliman said:
May God continue to strengthen the hands of this great surgeon and enlighten him from the errors of his ways to join the Orthodox Church.

Dear brother, please be careful. Your words seem to equate the acceptance of evolution with Orthodox enlightenment. I hope this is not your intention. Regardless of your personal passion for evolutionary philosophy, I would hope that you would not want to lead Orthodox inquirers to think that faith in evolution parallels faith in the Orthodox Church.



Selam
No not at all.  The fact that he's a Seventh Day Adventist is bothersome.  These are "Christians" who take the law literally.  They are somewhat Judaizers.  Some SDAs believe in no blood transfusion and some do, but nevertheless, their history is very unstable.  I'm sure he doesn't take many things literally in his church, but regardless, he seems to nevertheless have a lot of faith in it.  I fear that sooner or later, the more educated he becomes, the more atheistic he may turn.  But understandably, he seems to have grown up in a tough neighborhood, and the Church took care of him with love, and I don't blame his faith.

But yes, I do tend to believe being Orthodox will also help him accept scientific advances, and allow him to become more respectable in the community.  And please Gebre, for the upteenth time I explained this, I do not "have faith in evolution."  People who say that are deluded, and people who think that about scientists are equally deluded or know nothing about science at all.  I have as much faith in evolution as I have faith my coffee has caffeine.  It's an irrelevant fact in my life that helps me get through my day in my job, but nevertheless, turning this seeming irrelevance into the glory of God, in whom He alone I have faith.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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minasoliman said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
minasoliman said:
May God continue to strengthen the hands of this great surgeon and enlighten him from the errors of his ways to join the Orthodox Church.

Dear brother, please be careful. Your words seem to equate the acceptance of evolution with Orthodox enlightenment. I hope this is not your intention. Regardless of your personal passion for evolutionary philosophy, I would hope that you would not want to lead Orthodox inquirers to think that faith in evolution parallels faith in the Orthodox Church.



Selam
No not at all.  The fact that he's a Seventh Day Adventist is bothersome.  These are "Christians" who take the law literally.  They are somewhat Judaizers.  Some SDAs believe in no blood transfusion and some do, but nevertheless, their history is very unstable.  I'm sure he doesn't take many things literally in his church, but regardless, he seems to nevertheless have a lot of faith in it.  I fear that sooner or later, the more educated he becomes, the more atheistic he may turn.  But understandably, he seems to have grown up in a tough neighborhood, and the Church took care of him with love, and I don't blame his faith.

But yes, I do tend to believe being Orthodox will also help him accept scientific advances, and allow him to become more respectable in the community.  And please Gebre, for the upteenth time I explained this, I do not "have faith in evolution."  People who say that are deluded, and people who think that about scientists are equally deluded or know nothing about science at all.  I have as much faith in evolution as I have faith my coffee has caffeine.  It's an irrelevant fact in my life that helps me get through my day in my job, but nevertheless, turning this seeming irrelevance into the glory of God, in whom He alone I have faith.

I didn't say you had faith in evolution. I said that you are passionate about evolutionary philosophy.


Selam
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Android_Rewster said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:



Selam
Well, with regards to this post, I don't believe Mr. Carson (with all due respect) understands how the scientific process really works. Darwin theorized Evolution in 1859. Since then, the theory has been, added to, revised, and ultimately refined, and will continue to be until we can fully scientifically understand it as much as is needed to make it appear plausible. :) It's still a larger jump, with all of the evidence we have(even outside of the fossil record) against a literal genesis, to believe that the earth is 10,000 years old.

Respects,
Andrew

^Edited it for you.



Selam
That's how science works.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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That person said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Android_Rewster said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:



Selam
Well, with regards to this post, I don't believe Mr. Carson (with all due respect) understands how the scientific process really works. Darwin theorized Evolution in 1859. Since then, the theory has been, added to, revised, and ultimately refined, and will continue to be until we can fully scientifically understand it as much as is needed to make it appear plausible. :) It's still a larger jump, with all of the evidence we have(even outside of the fossil record) against a literal genesis, to believe that the earth is 10,000 years old.

Respects,
Andrew

^Edited it for you.



Selam
That's how science works.
Ummm... no, that's not how science works.



Selam
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Achronos said:
"evolutionary philosophy" is what exactly?
Go back and read the posts on this thread from those who subscribe to the theory of evolution.
No Gebre, I asked you what that is.

Where did I accuse him of that?
That wasn't an accusation.

You claim he is "passionate about holding an evolutionary philosophy", so I want to know what that is first.
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
minasoliman said:
May God continue to strengthen the hands of this great surgeon and enlighten him from the errors of his ways to join the Orthodox Church.

Dear brother, please be careful. Your words seem to equate the acceptance of evolution with Orthodox enlightenment. I hope this is not your intention. Regardless of your personal passion for evolutionary philosophy, I would hope that you would not want to lead Orthodox inquirers to think that faith in evolution parallels faith in the Orthodox Church.



Selam
Two things:
1. I don't have a passion for some "evolutionary philosophy".  I have a passion for science, and this passion is rooted in my Lord, Jesus Christ.
2. Faith in the Orthodox Church parallels doing all things for the glory of God, including helping advance evolutionary science if this is what your job entails.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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minasoliman said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
minasoliman said:
May God continue to strengthen the hands of this great surgeon and enlighten him from the errors of his ways to join the Orthodox Church.

Dear brother, please be careful. Your words seem to equate the acceptance of evolution with Orthodox enlightenment. I hope this is not your intention. Regardless of your personal passion for evolutionary philosophy, I would hope that you would not want to lead Orthodox inquirers to think that faith in evolution parallels faith in the Orthodox Church.



Selam
Two things:
1. I don't have a passion for some "evolutionary philosophy".  I have a passion for science, and this passion is rooted in my Lord, Jesus Christ.
2. Faith in the Orthodox Church parallels doing all things for the glory of God, including helping advance evolutionary science if this is what your job entails.

True science does not need to be advanced. True science needs to be studied and practiced, and when it is studied and practiced correctly then it leads to scientific and medical advancements. Those who are possessed by a zeal to advance evolutionary philosophy reveal that they confuse philosophy for science.

I can assure you that the Orthdodox Church has not commissioned you to advance evolutionary theory. If you love science, then stick with science and the rest will follow. But so far, you have placed your pet theory above and ahead of pure science, and you want the rest of us to accept your theory as scientific fact. That is why I say that you are passionate about evolutionary philosophy. And that's fine. I admire those who have a passion for their beliefs. But their passion doesn't mean that their beliefs are empircal fact.

But we've been over all this before.


Selam
 

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Gebre, what background in science do you have? What did you study and what work are you doing currently within the field of the physical sciences?
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
pure science
What is pure science?

Yes, that was rhetorical. As everyone knows your loaded jargon is nearly without meaning. I just wanted to point that out.
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
minasoliman said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
minasoliman said:
May God continue to strengthen the hands of this great surgeon and enlighten him from the errors of his ways to join the Orthodox Church.

Dear brother, please be careful. Your words seem to equate the acceptance of evolution with Orthodox enlightenment. I hope this is not your intention. Regardless of your personal passion for evolutionary philosophy, I would hope that you would not want to lead Orthodox inquirers to think that faith in evolution parallels faith in the Orthodox Church.



Selam
Two things:
1. I don't have a passion for some "evolutionary philosophy".  I have a passion for science, and this passion is rooted in my Lord, Jesus Christ.
2. Faith in the Orthodox Church parallels doing all things for the glory of God, including helping advance evolutionary science if this is what your job entails.

True science does not need to be advanced. True science needs to be studied and practiced, and when it is studied and practiced correctly then it leads to scientific and medical advancements. Those who are possessed by a zeal to advance evolutionary philosophy reveal that they confuse philosophy for science.

I can assure you that the Orthdodox Church has not commissioned you to advance evolutionary theory. If you love science, then stick with science and the rest will follow. But so far, you have placed your pet theory above and ahead of pure science, and you want the rest of us to accept your theory as scientific fact. That is why I say that you are passionate about evolutionary philosophy. And that's fine. I admire those who have a passion for their beliefs. But their passion doesn't mean that their beliefs are empircal fact.

But we've been over all this before.


Selam
Indeed...

we have been through all this before.  But unfortunately, if people can understand that evolutionary theory arises from pure science, then people will realize they have been wasting their time trying to attack something that is has not been successfully disproven.

As for your earlier recommendation of Phillip Johnson, unfortunately, Johnson falls into a heresy, as all Intelligent Design advocates.  They inadvertently allow that God can be tested by the senses of man, thus making His divine nature no different than a creature's nature.  In order to prove Intelligent Design, they have to prove scientifically the Designer, and thus they are forced to believe God can be tested, including the idea that God can be falsifiable, God forbid!

Furthermore, his other heresy is God of the gaps.  This limits God's power.  To say that God is only involved in parts where science cannot explain things of nature is to say that God only is involved in those small areas and not in others.  It's even a heresy that some evolutionary theists fall into as well.

So his book really is a travesty for true Christian understanding of God and His grace in all of creation.

No need to explain his scientific errors, and his flawed strategy in using the court of law.  It was tried before, and it failed in the court of law, particularly Kittzmiller vs. Dover.  Kenneth Miller wrote a refutation of his book, although even Dr. Miller falls into the God of the gaps heresy, but I enjoyed his sound scientific refutation of Johnson.
 
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