Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 163 37.6%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 198 45.6%

  • Total voters
    434

Achronos

Toumarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
13,265
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
House Of Balloons
I have a question. If we evolved from apes, and there was no God, would our species even last as long as it had?

I mean with no guidance we'd probably killed each other off no?
 

Asteriktos

Hypatos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,115
Reaction score
34
Points
48
Age
41
Achronos said:
I have a question. If we evolved from apes, and there was no God, would our species even last as long as it had?

I mean with no guidance we'd probably killed each other off no?
Give it some time...

 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
Achronos said:
I have a question. If we evolved from apes, and there was no God, would our species even last as long as it had?

I mean with no guidance we'd probably killed each other off no?
If there was no God, I'd have a hard time understanding how creation has a purposeful existence.
 

theistgal

Archon
Site Supporter
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,477
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Sunny Southern Cal
Well, realistically speaking, whether or not there is a God isnot affected by what we believe or don't believe would be possible with or without one. :)
 

Ortho_cat

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
5,392
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
38
Location
Wichita, KS
theistgal said:
Well, realistically speaking, whether or not there is a God isnot affected by what we believe or don't believe would be possible with or without one. :)
That's deep. Could you rephrase that for this dullard?  :laugh:
 

Achronos

Toumarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
13,265
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
House Of Balloons
minasoliman said:
Achronos said:
I have a question. If we evolved from apes, and there was no God, would our species even last as long as it had?

I mean with no guidance we'd probably killed each other off no?
If there was no God, I'd have a hard time understanding how creation has a purposeful existence.
And I agree with you, but let's just say for the discussion God doesn't exist and we somehow came to be fashioned by randomness and chance. If a higher being wasn't there to guide us a long the way, wouldn't our species somewhere be extinct? How would we know what good and bad were to be, who knows in an alternate reality the few species of humans could have eaten some bad stuff that killed them.
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
Achronos said:
minasoliman said:
Achronos said:
I have a question. If we evolved from apes, and there was no God, would our species even last as long as it had?

I mean with no guidance we'd probably killed each other off no?
If there was no God, I'd have a hard time understanding how creation has a purposeful existence.
And I agree with you, but let's just say for the discussion God doesn't exist and we somehow came to be fashioned by randomness and chance. If a higher being wasn't there to guide us a long the way, wouldn't our species somewhere be extinct? How would we know what good and bad were to be, who knows in an alternate reality the few species of humans could have eaten some bad stuff that killed them.
Many atheists today have accepted Hawking's new speculation based on mathematical calculations that our universe is one of perhaps infinitely many others with different laws of physics, which can signify that we are just "insignificant" in the group.  In other words, chances are, there is at least one universe, our's, that supports life, and especially life that evolves into humanity.

So, the atheist answer I suppose is, depending on which universe you live in.  We just happened to be in one which was fine-tuned for our existence.
 

Achronos

Toumarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
13,265
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
House Of Balloons
minasoliman said:
Achronos said:
minasoliman said:
Achronos said:
I have a question. If we evolved from apes, and there was no God, would our species even last as long as it had?

I mean with no guidance we'd probably killed each other off no?
If there was no God, I'd have a hard time understanding how creation has a purposeful existence.
And I agree with you, but let's just say for the discussion God doesn't exist and we somehow came to be fashioned by randomness and chance. If a higher being wasn't there to guide us a long the way, wouldn't our species somewhere be extinct? How would we know what good and bad were to be, who knows in an alternate reality the few species of humans could have eaten some bad stuff that killed them.
Many atheists today have accepted Hawking's new speculation based on mathematical calculations that our universe is one of perhaps infinitely many others with different laws of physics, which can signify that we are just "insignificant" in the group.  In other words, chances are, there is at least one universe, our's, that supports life, and especially life that evolves into humanity.

So, the atheist answer I suppose is, depending on which universe you live in.  We just happened to be in one which was fine-tuned for our existence.
LOL it's like they are arguing for intelligent design.

"insignificant" huh? Why is it that these observations try to void all purposeness in life? Oh you're just a cause from some sort of random event, no reason at all. Just cause. That is truly absurd.
 

Asteriktos

Hypatos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,115
Reaction score
34
Points
48
Age
41
Achronos said:
"insignificant" huh? Why is it that these observations try to void all purposeness in life? Oh you're just a cause from some sort of random event, no reason at all. Just cause. That is truly absurd.
I don't think people try to get rid of purpose, I think that's just what they see as the logical and consistent conclusion of their beliefs. I wouldn't call it absurdity, I'd call it sincerity. However, I think they could be wrong, and there could be alternative views. For instance, I was quite depressed last night (and I'm understating things quite a bit). One thing that helped pull me out was a show I had recorded and started watching on black holes. Ha! Black holes could destroy our solar system, they said. It could rip the earth apart. Our universe could be nothing more than the innards of a black hole from some other universe, they speculated. And yet... the show really lifted my spirits, because they reminded me of the grandeur and complexity of our existence. Does that mean that purpose is a necessary thing? No, but it starts to build a case for it... at least that's how I felt last night. Yet others come to opposite conclusion--sometimes I come to an opposite conclusion. Anyway, I think I'm rambling...
 

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
Ortho_cat said:
theistgal said:
Well, realistically speaking, whether or not there is a God isnot affected by what we believe or don't believe would be possible with or without one. :)
That's deep. Could you rephrase that for this dullard?  :laugh:
I think she's saying that there are two separate issues here: (1) whether God really exists or not; and (2) whether we believe God really exists or not.

God might not exist, but our belief in God's existence might have allowed us to survive.
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
Asteriktos said:
Achronos said:
"insignificant" huh? Why is it that these observations try to void all purposeness in life? Oh you're just a cause from some sort of random event, no reason at all. Just cause. That is truly absurd.
I don't think people try to get rid of purpose, I think that's just what they see as the logical and consistent conclusion of their beliefs. I wouldn't call it absurdity, I'd call it sincerity. However, I think they could be wrong, and there could be alternative views. For instance, I was quite depressed last night (and I'm understating things quite a bit). One thing that helped pull me out was a show I had recorded and started watching on black holes. Ha! Black holes could destroy our solar system, they said. It could rip the earth apart. Our universe could be nothing more than the innards of a black hole from some other universe, they speculated. And yet... the show really lifted my spirits, because they reminded me of the grandeur and complexity of our existence. Does that mean that purpose is a necessary thing? No, but it starts to build a case for it... at least that's how I felt last night. Yet others come to opposite conclusion--sometimes I come to an opposite conclusion. Anyway, I think I'm rambling...
Hey, I replied your post in the "criticism of atheism" thread, as it pertained more to that subject.  I want to think they are sincere, and if so, perhaps they're also brainwashed and devoid of any clarity of mind.

I can't wait to buy and read Hawking's book to get a clearer understanding of all this stuff though.
 

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
Achronos said:
minasoliman said:
Achronos said:
minasoliman said:
Achronos said:
I have a question. If we evolved from apes, and there was no God, would our species even last as long as it had?

I mean with no guidance we'd probably killed each other off no?
If there was no God, I'd have a hard time understanding how creation has a purposeful existence.
And I agree with you, but let's just say for the discussion God doesn't exist and we somehow came to be fashioned by randomness and chance. If a higher being wasn't there to guide us a long the way, wouldn't our species somewhere be extinct? How would we know what good and bad were to be, who knows in an alternate reality the few species of humans could have eaten some bad stuff that killed them.
Many atheists today have accepted Hawking's new speculation based on mathematical calculations that our universe is one of perhaps infinitely many others with different laws of physics, which can signify that we are just "insignificant" in the group.  In other words, chances are, there is at least one universe, our's, that supports life, and especially life that evolves into humanity.

So, the atheist answer I suppose is, depending on which universe you live in.  We just happened to be in one which was fine-tuned for our existence.
Why is it that these observations try to void all purposeness in life?
Because science is not based on finding a purpose in life. Science is based on curiosity about how things work. If something works in this or that manner, but we don't know exactly how, then curiosity is incited. This curiosity is a rather joyous emotion, but it also needs to be fulfilled, at least to some degree. The scientist enhances his joyous emotion of curiosity whenever she discovers exactly how something works. Any 'ultimate' purpose cannot (from a scientific perspective) be discovered, and so doesn't arouse any curiosity. But the way things work empirically...Ah ha! We can find that out, via curiosity.

Of course, when 'revelation' occurs, an event that breaks through what one would normally consider 'real', then another type of curiosity manifests itself. :angel:
 

chrevbel

High Elder
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
708
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I'm not sure the steps as depicted even make sense.  Is man not made in God's image truly the next logical conclusion after Bible not infallible?  I don't think so.

And no deity is four steps removed from atheism.  But aren't those two synonymous?

I think the cartoon is more an appeal for emotional effect than it is a description of any kind of logical hierarchy.
 

Dnarmist

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
88
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alligators, crocodiles, snakes, turtles, tortoises, fish, lizards, dinosaurs.

Which one of those aren't around anymore? Right, dinosaurs. They were not fit to survive whatever killed them off. The rest were, and they're not the same as they were billions of years ago when all that happened.

Passenger pigeons no longer even exist, they cannot evolve because they were wiped out by man. Survival of the fittest. Our intelligence lead to the creation of guns which lead to the extinction of that entire species. We're still here. They are not. We will continue to thrive. They won't.

I think alot of what I have read here is seeing things strictly from the human perspective. It seems as though people think that once humans got here, that's when everything started. What about the billions of years before humans existed and other animals roamed the planet? How did woolly mammoths descend into elephants? They adapted due to natural climate change and the mammoths themselves no longer exist but their DNA can be found in modern elephants. The evidence is all too blatant to ignore.

I would urge don't fall into the trap that evolution is against God. Because to me, intelligent design WOULD be that animals evolve; seems to be the most intelligent of all. Otherwise God would have to step in every few years and create a new species.

Almost everything you eat has been genetically altered to suit our needs as humans. We've just outranked all the other animals (for now) on the scale of evolution, but we're all brothers with all the creatures of this planet. We've managed to control evolution, to a scale. We don't adapt our needs to our environment so much anymore as we adapt our environment to our needs.
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,485
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
38
Location
PA, USA
"There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live."
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
Iconodule said:
"There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live."
:D

There should be a Chuck Norris thread somewhere...

aahh...found it:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18523.0.html
 

ipm

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
119
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Try this link to see if the podcasts are of any interest. There is a ton of stuff on evolution there:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko

 
Top