Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

[WPM]

For example, "death" can be a change into Fall and Winter, where Vegetation decays and grows again in the Spring and Summer.

 

[rakovsky]

Well said. And yet "survival of the fittest" negates all of that. The theory of evolution dictates that we are still evolving. So who's to say that the Orthodox Christian morality we believe to be true today will still be true 100, 1,000, or 1,000,000 years from now? Yes, as Orthodox Christians we profess the Teachings and Traditions of the Church to be timelessly true. And yet evolutionary theory contradicts any notion of timeless and eternal moral truth. Within evolution, whatever is best for survival and adaptation is the only morality that matters. So once again, those who hold to a concept of "theistic evolution" are naïve and ignorant about the implications of their own theory. But we've been over this all before. 

I don't think that evolution really contradicts any notion of timeless truths or morals. Even if all morality is just relative, then one has just stated a moral dictum- that all morals are relative.

 

[Tigray]

I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.

 

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Well said. And yet "survival of the fittest" negates all of that. The theory of evolution dictates that we are still evolving. So who's to say that the Orthodox Christian morality we believe to be true today will still be true 100, 1,000, or 1,000,000 years from now? Yes, as Orthodox Christians we profess the Teachings and Traditions of the Church to be timelessly true. And yet evolutionary theory contradicts any notion of timeless and eternal moral truth. Within evolution, whatever is best for survival and adaptation is the only morality that matters. So once again, those who hold to a concept of "theistic evolution" are naïve and ignorant about the implications of their own theory. But we've been over this all before. 

I don't think that evolution really contradicts any notion of timeless truths or morals. Even if all morality is just relative, then one has just stated a moral dictum- that all morals are relative.

Well, you have just hit on the key point. Moral relativity is a correlative philosophy of evolutionary theory. The theistic evolutionist can preach divine, immutable, objective moral truth all day long; but their own specious, subjective scientific theory undermines and negates the objective truths they seek to preserve.

Selam

 

[edati]

I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.

It's not about the number of people that determines something is right or wrong.  Truth is independent of how many agrees with it or not.  Even if nobody acknowledged that a tree fell in the forest, if it fell, then it fell.  It just is.

It doesn't bother me even if there's more people who believe in evolution.  But what I find bothersome is there are Christians who regard the theory as fact, not just simply believe, in denial of the vision of Moses.

 

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.

It's not about the number of people that determines something is right or wrong.  Truth is independent of how many agrees with it or not.  Even if nobody acknowledged that a tree fell in the forest, if it fell, then it fell.  It just is.

It doesn't bother me even if there's more people who believe in evolution.  But what I find bothersome is there are Christians who regard the theory as fact, not just simply believe, in denial of the vision of Moses.

Amen.

Science is not democracy. 1+1 = 2. Even if the entire mathematical community says otherwise, 1+1 will always equal 2.

Selam

 

[Ainnir]

I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.

Tigray, a near exact copy of this post was already made in this thread.  Posting it here after that is verging on spamming the forum.  You're new, so I will not give any points.  Please be mindful of how and where you post, and do not post copies on other threads.
Thanks.  --Annir

 

[Jude1:3]

Check this out :

 

[Jude1:3]

Creation, Early Man, and Evolution | According to Modern Holy Fathers

Introduction

0:38 Fr. Seraphim Rose, Hieromonk of Platina, California (+1982) – Basic presuppositions for knowledge of creation and early man.

4:33 St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, Bishop of the Caucasus and Stavropol (+1867) – The state of creation before the Fall of Adam.

6:55 St. Hilarion (Troitsky), Hieromartyr and Archbishop of Verey (+1929) – The Church’s view leads to humility, the secular view leads to pride.

10:38 St. Nikolai (Velimirovic), Bishop of Zica (+1956) – “Death is Unnatural”

13:32 St. Justin (Popovic) of Celije (+1979) – How man and the rest of creation are inseparable. When man fell, all of creation fell.

15:22 St. Ambrose of Optina (+1891) – “Don’t believe at face value all kinds of nonsense…” 15:46 St. John of Kronstadt (+1908) – True knowledge and the over-educated.

16:49 St. Vladimir, Hieromartyr and Metropolitan of Kiev and Gallich (+1918) – Do not listen to teachings of unbelief for they “promise you nothing but despair and an inconsolable life.”

18:44 St. Theophan the Recluse, Bishop of Tambov (+1894) – Evolution is anathema, along with other secular Western philosophies, and only a pure nous can accurately contemplate divine reality.

29:19 St. Barsanuphius of Optina (+1913) – The moral ramifications of evolutionist philosophy.

30:05 St. Nectarios, Metropolitan of Pentapolis and Wonderworker of Aegina (+1920) – “Without the acceptance of revealed truth, man will remain an insoluble problem.”

31:42 Fr. Seraphim Rose (+1982) – Knowledge of creation and early man can only be obtained by divine illumination. (Editor’s Note: This essentially repeats his teaching from the beginning, but it is kept here since it is so key to our understanding.)

34:26 St. Luke the Surgeon, Archbishop of Simferopol (+1961) – Evolutionary theory is not only contradictory to the Scripture, but to nature itself. 35:54 St. Sophrony (Sakharov) the Athonite (+1993) – The absurdity of evolutionary theory.

36:57 St. Paisios of Mount Athos (+1994) – Monkeys are far from humans; evolutionary theory is blasphemy. 41:31 St. Justin (Popovic) of Celije (+1979) – His letter to a theology student asking about evolution in which he focuses on the impact of evolution on the Orthodoxy doctrine of salvation.

46:35 Fr. Seraphim Rose (+1982) – Brief overview of the keys to the Patristic understanding.

52:44 Hymns from Vigil of the Sunday of Forgiveness, The Casting Out of Adam from Paradise

54:33 Hymn from the Feast of the Elevation of the Holy Cross

 

[rakovsky]

One theory goes that God uses tools like Evolution. A Protestant whom I corresponded with online wrote:

This is, I think, why it all has the appearance of what others like to call--- evolution. It all exists in so natural a manner. As I grow older--- 60 now--- I'm seeing more and more that God operates using all the laws of nature, to achieve what is so often called- miraculous.

He told a joke:

Spoiler: Jesus, Moses, and an old man who play golf

Jesus swings, hits the ball over the water feature, and the ball stops in the middle. He walks out across the water, and hits the ball and sinks it, for a par 2.

Moses hits the ball, and it sinks in the middle of the lake. He walks out, splits the water, walks across the lake on the dried out floor, and also hits the ball for a par 2.

The old man wildly smacks the ball, and it bounces off the maintenance hut out into the street, which then bounces off a passing truck, hits a tree inside the course, and then bounces off another tree, and lands on a water lily on the lake. A frog happens by, grabs the ball, and then an eagle swoops down, grabs the frog, with the ball in its grasp, who then freaks out, spits the ball out, and it drops into the hole, for a hole in one.

Moses turns to Jesus, and says-- I really don't like playing with your dad. He always gets a hole in one.

 

[Ainnir]

He writes as if the laws of nature are above God. The term is theistic evolution, and it’s miraculius because it’s a work of God, not because people can’t explain it, even though we often can’t.

 

[Jude1:3]

The Theory of Evolution Emits a Foul Stench (From the book: My Elder Joseph the Hesychast by Elder Ephraim)

 

[Tzimis]

The fathers often speak of man as a microchasm with the surrounding universe. So I could see how its possible to be interconnected with other species and nature in many ways. The problem I believe most fear with the theory, is time. It scares us to think of millions of years passing. Yet Christ himself used time as an injection point into nature. So I don't fear it. Time is exactly. whats been overcome and shouldn't be feared.

 

[Ainnir]

Personally, I think for the YEC evangelical crowd, they believe if they can beat evolution out of existence, people will HAVE to believe the Bible. Or conversely, the notion of evolution fundamentally challenges their faith in the Bible. It’s not fear of time, it’s a need to be right and win. Pride, in other words.

I’m an old earth creationist, without being all that invested in the argument. God created. Good enough for me. If even that is wrong, He’ll let me know eventually.

 

[rakovsky]

He writes as if the laws of nature are above God. The term is theistic evolution,

In a follow up, the person told me that he was a Creationist. I think he meant that things only look like they came through Evolution. I don't know if the story that he told me about God playing Golf was originally written to be about Evolution either.

 

[Asteriktos]

man as a microchasm with the surrounding universe.

Sounds like a JRPG premise/storyline

 

[xariskai]

man as a microchasm with the surrounding universe

Sounds like a JRPG premise/storyline

hahaha

Surely if mankind is to be described as some sort of chasm macrochasm is a better fit than microchasm.

 

[Ainnir]

In a follow up, the person told me that he was a Creationist. I think he meant that things only look like they came through Evolution. I don't know if the story that he told me about God playing Golf was originally written to be about Evolution either.

I didn’t think the joke was about evolution. I think saying God works through the laws of nature makes it sound like He’s limited by them, as if they came first. I may just not like his phrasing. I brought up theisotic evolution because that’s the name of the view that operates on that principle; it could technically be argued as a Creationist view.

So do you have a question or comment based on what this person said?

 

[rakovsky]

I think saying God works through the laws of nature makes it sound like He’s limited by them, as if they came first.

So do you have a question or comment based on what this person said?

Well my comment is that idea about God's operations in the joke story makes sense.
You could pray to God for something and then it could happen, and even though the event makes sense in terms of material processes, I think that God could still be involved in causing the event.

 

[Ainnir]

I'm blaming my phone for my typos, by the way.

God is absolutely involved in all events. Whether He's allowing it or causing it is a debate I'm not interested in having, but God is not incidental to nature; it's the other way around. That doesn't mean I think God intentionally causes natural disasters to judge this or that region or people. He's certainly allowing it, and it's certainly an opportunity for us to turn toward Him. That's all we really need to know.

 

[Theophanius]

If Adam and Eve are metaphorical, and Cain and Abel and Seth and Noah, etc are metaphorical, and the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil are metaphorical, what is to stop the faithful from seeing God also as metaphorical?

The Genealogy of Adam descends down to Christ our Lord in the Gospel of St. Luke. Is that metaphorical?

 

[hecma925]

If Adam and Eve are metaphorical, and Cain and Abel and Seth and Noah, etc are metaphorical, and the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil are metaphorical, what is to stop the faithful from seeing God also as metaphorical?

The Genealogy of Adam descends down to Christ our Lord in the Gospel of St. Luke. Is that metaphorical?

Nothing. With enough metaphors, yes.

 

[Jude1:3]

Heliocentrism and Macroevolution are just lies and forms of Mass Hypnosis / sorcery on the human population to keep them from believing in God The Lord Jesus Christ, The Church, The Holy Bible, The Holy Fathers Etc.

 

[Jude1:3]

Genesis, Creation and Early Man: The Orthodox Christian Vision - by : Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose

Genesis, Creation and Early Man: The Orthodox Christian Vision : Seraphim Rose : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Amidst the creation/evolution debate that is now raging, with evidence being offered for both sides, few have made use of what Fr. Seraphim Rose called the...

archive.org

 

[xariskai]

Actually, Theophan, the Church DOES glorify Clement of Alexandria as a saint and Father.

Not sure about that.

"Although Clement is not commemorated as a saint in Eastern Orthodoxy, he was formerly commemorated by the Roman Catholic Church. However, he was dropped from the Roman martyrology by Pope Clement VIII (Pope from 1592-1605), a decision reaffirmed by People Benedict XIV (pope 1740-1758) "on the grounds that Clement's life was little known that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church, and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least suspect."[1] Perhaps for all these reasons, "Clement has had no notable influence on the course of theology beyond his personal influence on the young Origen.[2] https://orthodoxwiki.org/Clement_of_Alexandria

Indeed the Stromateis citation from ibid appears to be Docetic; cf. also St. Photius criticized him for regarding the Son as a creature:

Charges of heresy
According to Clement, though Christ's goodness operated in the creation of the world, the Son himself was immutable, self-sufficient, and incapable of suffering. According to his interpretation, such are the characteristic qualities of the divine essence. Though the Logos is most closely one with the Father, whose powers he resumes in himself, to Clement both the Son and the Spirit are "first-born powers and first created"; they form the highest stages in the scale of intelligent being, and Clement distinguishes the Son-Logos from the Logos who is immutably immanent in God. Because of this Photius would later charge that he "degraded the Son to the rank of a creature." Separate from the world as the principle of creation, the Logos is yet in it as its guiding principle. Thus a natural life is a life according to the will of the Logos. Clement has also been accused of Docetism in his teachings on the Incarnation. According to him, the body of Christ was not subject to human needs. See the following passage from Stromateis which clearly denies Christ's full humanity:

In regard to the Savior, however, it were ridiculous to suppose that the body demanded, as a body, the necessary aids for its maintenance. For He ate, note for the sake of the body, which had its continuance from a holy power, but lest those in His company might happen to think otherwise of Him, just as aftewards some did certainily supposed that He had appeared as a mere phantasm. He was in general dispassionate; and no movement of feeling penetrated Him, whether pleasure or pain

 

[Jude1:3]

From "Genesis, Creation and Early Man: The Orthodox Christian Vision" - by : Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose :

The icon reads: “Evolution is the key to the philosophy of Antichrist.” This is a paraphrase of Fr. Seraphim’s words that perfectly captures a big reason why a proper understanding of Genesis and Creation matters for us today.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349952064441389057

 

[Jude1:3]

• St. Ephraim the Syrian (306-373 A.D.)
“No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory"

*St. Ephraim the Syrian* / Commentary on Genesis Ch.1

 

[Stinky]

Fact check site reports creationism is "Conspiracy Theory." https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/02...ars-all-the-hallmarks-of-a-conspiracy-theory/

 

[Ainnir]

There’s a disclaimer in the article; it’s republished from The Conversation as a point of interest. And they're specifically addressing YEC, not creationism in general. I personally don't disagree with the article's criticism. I'm not sure I'd call it a conspiracy theory because I'm hanging on to a narrower definition of that term, but the way YEC exists as a movement and is given dogmatic emphasis in certain circles is messed up, unChristian, unbiblical, and unnecessary. This is different, in my mind, from believing the earth is young. I'm sure it's possible to take Genesis literally and not fall into the kind of mindset the YEC movement requires, and I respect that.

 

[Tzimis]

• St. Ephraim the Syrian (306-373 A.D.)
“No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory"

*St. Ephraim the Syrian* / Commentary on Genesis Ch.1

Yeah, but is 6 days, really 6 days.

 

[Stinky]

There’s a disclaimer in the article; it’s republished from The Conversation as a point of interest. And they're specifically addressing YEC, not creationism in general. I personally don't disagree with the article's criticism. I'm not sure I'd call it a conspiracy theory because I'm hanging on to a narrower definition of that term, but the way YEC exists as a movement and is given dogmatic emphasis in certain circles is messed up, unChristian, unbiblical, and unnecessary. This is different, in my mind, from believing the earth is young. I'm sure it's possible to take Genesis literally and not fall into the kind of mindset the YEC movement requires, and I respect that.

We are lumped together nonetheless.

 

[Ainnir]

We are lumped together nonetheless.

Yeah, I know. It happens with everything it seems.

 

[Ainnir]

Yeah, but is 6 days, really 6 days.

Of course! It just depends on how you define “day.”

 

[biro]

I am beginning to find Jude frightening.

 

[Tzimis]

Of course! It just depends on how you define “day.”

That's correct. If I define a day as much larger than 24hours.
In a cosmological sense, it could be much larger.

 

[PorphyriosK]

I am beginning to find Jude frightening.

For posting quotes from the Fathers and Orthodox saints?

 

[Ainnir]

That's correct. If I define a day as much larger than 24hours.
In a cosmological sense, it could be much larger.

It could or could not. We don’t know for sure and really don’t need to, if we keep Christ central. It ultimately matters how God defines things. To me, when it gets to the point of debate, it has become a distraction from what we’re supposed to be doing.

 

[Tzimis]

It could or could not. We don’t know for sure and really don’t need to, if we keep Christ central. It ultimately matters how God defines things. To me, when it gets to the point of debate, it has become a distraction from what we’re supposed to be doing.

I would much rather call it learning rather than debating. And since we are on the topic, do you know how long, in scientific terms is an aion?
Can you fit it on a calendar year or is it shorter, or longer?

 

[Jude1:3]

Yeah, but is 6 days, really 6 days.

"Now Twenty-Four Hours Fill Up The Space Of One Day — we mean of a day and of a night; and if, at the time of the solstices, they have not both an equal length, the time marked by Scripture does not the less circumscribe their duration. It Is As Though It Said: Twenty-Four Hours Measure The Space Of A Day, or that, in reality a day is the time that the heavens starting from one point take to return there. Thus, every time that, in the revolution of the sun, evening and morning occupy the world, their periodical succession never exceeds the space of one day. But must we believe in a mysterious reason for this? God who made the nature of time measured it out and determined it by intervals of days; and, wishing to give it a week as a measure, he ordered the week to revolve from period to period upon itself, to count the movement of time, forming the week of one day revolving seven times upon itself: a proper circle begins and ends with itself. Now Twenty-Four Hours Fill Up The Space Of One Day — we mean of a day and of a night; and if, at the time of the solstices, they have not both an equal length, the time marked by Scripture does not the less circumscribe their duration. It Is As Though It Said: Twenty-Four Hours Measure The Space Of A Day,"


• Saint Basil The Great - Hexaemeron - Homily 2 - 8 (330-379 A.D)

NPNF2-8 Saint Basil. Homily II.

Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. VIII. Saint Basil. Homily II.

ecmarsh.com

 

[Luke]

This may be a helpful article about Byzantine Astronomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_science#Byzantine_and_Islamic_science