Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 74 16.9%
  • No

    Votes: 164 37.4%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 200 45.7%

  • Total voters
    438

WPM

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For example, "death" can be a change into Fall and Winter, where Vegetation decays and grows again in the Spring and Summer.
 

rakovsky

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Well said. And yet "survival of the fittest" negates all of that. The theory of evolution dictates that we are still evolving. So who's to say that the Orthodox Christian morality we believe to be true today will still be true 100, 1,000, or 1,000,000 years from now? Yes, as Orthodox Christians we profess the Teachings and Traditions of the Church to be timelessly true. And yet evolutionary theory contradicts any notion of timeless and eternal moral truth. Within evolution, whatever is best for survival and adaptation is the only morality that matters. So once again, those who hold to a concept of "theistic evolution" are naïve and ignorant about the implications of their own theory. But we've been over this all before.  ;)
I don't think that evolution really contradicts any notion of timeless truths or morals. Even if all morality is just relative, then one has just stated a moral dictum- that all morals are relative.
 

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I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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rakovsky said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Well said. And yet "survival of the fittest" negates all of that. The theory of evolution dictates that we are still evolving. So who's to say that the Orthodox Christian morality we believe to be true today will still be true 100, 1,000, or 1,000,000 years from now? Yes, as Orthodox Christians we profess the Teachings and Traditions of the Church to be timelessly true. And yet evolutionary theory contradicts any notion of timeless and eternal moral truth. Within evolution, whatever is best for survival and adaptation is the only morality that matters. So once again, those who hold to a concept of "theistic evolution" are naïve and ignorant about the implications of their own theory. But we've been over this all before.  ;)
I don't think that evolution really contradicts any notion of timeless truths or morals. Even if all morality is just relative, then one has just stated a moral dictum- that all morals are relative.
Well, you have just hit on the key point. Moral relativity is a correlative philosophy of evolutionary theory. The theistic evolutionist can preach divine, immutable, objective moral truth all day long; but their own specious, subjective scientific theory undermines and negates the objective truths they seek to preserve.

Selam
 

edati

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Tigray said:
I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.
It's not about the number of people that determines something is right or wrong.  Truth is independent of how many agrees with it or not.  Even if nobody acknowledged that a tree fell in the forest, if it fell, then it fell.  It just is.

It doesn't bother me even if there's more people who believe in evolution.  But what I find bothersome is there are Christians who regard the theory as fact, not just simply believe, in denial of the vision of Moses.

 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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edati said:
Tigray said:
I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.
It's not about the number of people that determines something is right or wrong.  Truth is independent of how many agrees with it or not.  Even if nobody acknowledged that a tree fell in the forest, if it fell, then it fell.  It just is.

It doesn't bother me even if there's more people who believe in evolution.  But what I find bothersome is there are Christians who regard the theory as fact, not just simply believe, in denial of the vision of Moses.
Amen.

Science is not democracy. 1+1 = 2. Even if the entire mathematical community says otherwise, 1+1 will always equal 2.

Selam
 

Ainnir

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Tigray said:
I vote yes to this poll.Evolution theory is wrong.The majority of the people in the world don't believe in evolution.The majority of people in Latin America,Caraibean,Sub-saharan Africa(Sub-Saharan Africa has got 63% Christian majority https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/sub-saharan-africa/ ),Phillipines,in the biggest part of Asia,in Caucasus(Armenia,Georgia) and also some countries in the Balkans and in some states of USA don't believe in evolution.
Tigray, a near exact copy of this post was already made in this thread.  Posting it here after that is verging on spamming the forum.  You're new, so I will not give any points.  Please be mindful of how and where you post, and do not post copies on other threads.
Thanks.  --Annir
 

Jude1:3

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Creation, Early Man, and Evolution | According to Modern Holy Fathers




Introduction


0:38 Fr. Seraphim Rose, Hieromonk of Platina, California (+1982) – Basic presuppositions for knowledge of creation and early man.

4:33 St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, Bishop of the Caucasus and Stavropol (+1867) – The state of creation before the Fall of Adam.

6:55 St. Hilarion (Troitsky), Hieromartyr and Archbishop of Verey (+1929) – The Church’s view leads to humility, the secular view leads to pride.

10:38 St. Nikolai (Velimirovic), Bishop of Zica (+1956) – “Death is Unnatural”

13:32 St. Justin (Popovic) of Celije (+1979) – How man and the rest of creation are inseparable. When man fell, all of creation fell.

15:22 St. Ambrose of Optina (+1891) – “Don’t believe at face value all kinds of nonsense…” 15:46 St. John of Kronstadt (+1908) – True knowledge and the over-educated.

16:49 St. Vladimir, Hieromartyr and Metropolitan of Kiev and Gallich (+1918) – Do not listen to teachings of unbelief for they “promise you nothing but despair and an inconsolable life.”

18:44 St. Theophan the Recluse, Bishop of Tambov (+1894) – Evolution is anathema, along with other secular Western philosophies, and only a pure nous can accurately contemplate divine reality.

29:19 St. Barsanuphius of Optina (+1913) – The moral ramifications of evolutionist philosophy.

30:05 St. Nectarios, Metropolitan of Pentapolis and Wonderworker of Aegina (+1920) – “Without the acceptance of revealed truth, man will remain an insoluble problem.”

31:42 Fr. Seraphim Rose (+1982) – Knowledge of creation and early man can only be obtained by divine illumination. (Editor’s Note: This essentially repeats his teaching from the beginning, but it is kept here since it is so key to our understanding.)

34:26 St. Luke the Surgeon, Archbishop of Simferopol (+1961) – Evolutionary theory is not only contradictory to the Scripture, but to nature itself. 35:54 St. Sophrony (Sakharov) the Athonite (+1993) – The absurdity of evolutionary theory.

36:57 St. Paisios of Mount Athos (+1994) – Monkeys are far from humans; evolutionary theory is blasphemy. 41:31 St. Justin (Popovic) of Celije (+1979) – His letter to a theology student asking about evolution in which he focuses on the impact of evolution on the Orthodoxy doctrine of salvation.

46:35 Fr. Seraphim Rose (+1982) – Brief overview of the keys to the Patristic understanding.

52:44 Hymns from Vigil of the Sunday of Forgiveness, The Casting Out of Adam from Paradise

54:33 Hymn from the Feast of the Elevation of the Holy Cross
 

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One theory goes that God uses tools like Evolution. A Protestant whom I corresponded with online wrote:
This is, I think, why it all has the appearance of what others like to call--- evolution. It all exists in so natural a manner. As I grow older--- 60 now--- I'm seeing more and more that God operates using all the laws of nature, to achieve what is so often called- miraculous.
He told a joke:
Jesus swings, hits the ball over the water feature, and the ball stops in the middle. He walks out across the water, and hits the ball and sinks it, for a par 2.

Moses hits the ball, and it sinks in the middle of the lake. He walks out, splits the water, walks across the lake on the dried out floor, and also hits the ball for a par 2.

The old man wildly smacks the ball, and it bounces off the maintenance hut out into the street, which then bounces off a passing truck, hits a tree inside the course, and then bounces off another tree, and lands on a water lily on the lake. A frog happens by, grabs the ball, and then an eagle swoops down, grabs the frog, with the ball in its grasp, who then freaks out, spits the ball out, and it drops into the hole, for a hole in one.

Moses turns to Jesus, and says-- I really don't like playing with your dad. He always gets a hole in one.
 

Ainnir

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He writes as if the laws of nature are above God. The term is theistic evolution, and it’s miraculius because it’s a work of God, not because people can’t explain it, even though we often can’t.
 

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The Theory of Evolution Emits a Foul Stench (From the book: My Elder Joseph the Hesychast by Elder Ephraim)


 

Tzimis

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The fathers often speak of man as a microchasm with the surrounding universe. So I could see how its possible to be interconnected with other species and nature in many ways. The problem I believe most fear with the theory, is time. It scares us to think of millions of years passing. Yet Christ himself used time as an injection point into nature. So I don't fear it. Time is exactly. whats been overcome and shouldn't be feared.
 

Ainnir

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Personally, I think for the YEC evangelical crowd, they believe if they can beat evolution out of existence, people will HAVE to believe the Bible. Or conversely, the notion of evolution fundamentally challenges their faith in the Bible. It’s not fear of time, it’s a need to be right and win. Pride, in other words.

I’m an old earth creationist, without being all that invested in the argument. God created. Good enough for me. If even that is wrong, He’ll let me know eventually. :giggle:
 

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He writes as if the laws of nature are above God. The term is theistic evolution,
In a follow up, the person told me that he was a Creationist. I think he meant that things only look like they came through Evolution. I don't know if the story that he told me about God playing Golf was originally written to be about Evolution either.
 

Ainnir

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In a follow up, the person told me that he was a Creationist. I think he meant that things only look like they came through Evolution. I don't know if the story that he told me about God playing Golf was originally written to be about Evolution either.
I didn’t think the joke was about evolution. I think saying God works through the laws of nature makes it sound like He’s limited by them, as if they came first. I may just not like his phrasing. I brought up theisotic evolution because that’s the name of the view that operates on that principle; it could technically be argued as a Creationist view.

So do you have a question or comment based on what this person said?
 

rakovsky

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I think saying God works through the laws of nature makes it sound like He’s limited by them, as if they came first.

So do you have a question or comment based on what this person said?
Well my comment is that idea about God's operations in the joke story makes sense.
You could pray to God for something and then it could happen, and even though the event makes sense in terms of material processes, I think that God could still be involved in causing the event.
 

Ainnir

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I'm blaming my phone for my typos, by the way.

God is absolutely involved in all events. Whether He's allowing it or causing it is a debate I'm not interested in having, but God is not incidental to nature; it's the other way around. That doesn't mean I think God intentionally causes natural disasters to judge this or that region or people. He's certainly allowing it, and it's certainly an opportunity for us to turn toward Him. That's all we really need to know. :)
 

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If Adam and Eve are metaphorical, and Cain and Abel and Seth and Noah, etc are metaphorical, and the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil are metaphorical, what is to stop the faithful from seeing God also as metaphorical?

The Genealogy of Adam descends down to Christ our Lord in the Gospel of St. Luke. Is that metaphorical?
 

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If Adam and Eve are metaphorical, and Cain and Abel and Seth and Noah, etc are metaphorical, and the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil are metaphorical, what is to stop the faithful from seeing God also as metaphorical?

The Genealogy of Adam descends down to Christ our Lord in the Gospel of St. Luke. Is that metaphorical?
Nothing. With enough metaphors, yes.
 
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