Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 163 37.6%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 198 45.6%

  • Total voters
    434

ytterbiumanalyst

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Well, according to his profile, his faith is in mathematics, and I'd say that's pretty accurate from what I've read of his posts. GIC could probably explain it better.
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
I was explaining his yearning in his heart to him, that he has no doubt experienced...perhaps if he realizes what it is he can forego the fake solutoin (religion) and focus on the real thing, though probably not.
The nihilist says something is real. Interesting.

But religion is not an absolute truth,
absolutely sure of that?

it's a social construct and if any two people develop it the results will in all likelihood be different. So perhaps there may be a religion derived from the culture of the middle east that has some (potentially strong) parallels to Islam without Mohammed, but it's likely that much of the religion would differ.
Actually Zoroastrianism, developed in the culture of the Middle East, parallels Islam in many ways, with little difference except details (Zoroastrians do ablution with bull urine, the Muslims with water) although shares its origins with Hinduism, which is a family of dharmic religions in India.

No, but we might very well have ended up with something quite similar based on one of the other of the hundreds of Messiahs running around at the time...we'd still have the virgin birth, death, resurrection paradigm but I'm sure there'd be various details that differed and the praxis may have developed quite differently.
actually as none of those hundreds of messiahs running around claimed a virgin birth, and none of their followers claimed a resurrection, I guess not.

And, in the end, we still have Calculus and that's ultimately all that really matters.
hell bent on repeating the lessons of history, are we?

And if on account of this scientific and rational thought we had gotten rid of religion by the dark ages, well, first of all they wouldn't have been so dark and, secondly, the world would probably be perfectly safe with them...as it is today.
then why the worry if Saddam got them (btw, not a believer).

Funny, the only places not dark (in the West that is) were the bastions of religions (monestaries, the Vatican, etc.)

Actually, most sources would say that he got involved because of the influence Thales of Miletus had upon him. He studied mathematics for its own sake and made a religion out of it, a religion that resulted from his mathematics, not that caused it.
Thales, the one who, searching for a universal substance of mind, stated that water is the principle of all things; and that God is that Mind which shaped and created all things from water?  You've put the cart before the horse yet again.

He was great because he studied mathematics, his attempt to dogmatize was his weakness.
If he didn't attempt to dogmatize, he wouldn't have studied mathematics.

88Devin12 said:
Wait, forgive me but I am very confused...
No, you're not the one confused. Greeki will denounce the Orthodox Church as a delusion made up while at the same time defending the divine right of the EP.

ytterbiumanalyst said:
Well, according to his profile, his faith is in mathematics, and I'd say that's pretty accurate from what I've read of his posts. GIC could probably explain it better.
doubt it.
 

livefreeordie

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greekischristian said:
I was explaining his yearning in his heart to him, that he has no doubt experienced...perhaps if he realizes what it is he can forego the fake solutoin (religion) and focus on the real thing, though probably not.
Did you intend on providing me with such humour today?! ;)  You can somehow understand and explain the yearning in my heart and I imagine you think any silly "christian", yet you can't get over the "pain" in your own heart from the "brain washing" you seem to have been subjected to by all the poor ignorant religious people in your own life. Funny how you can "understand" and "explain" everyone else's heart and intentions via your "GIC" religion, yet this same insight doesn't allow you to escape the pain, frustration, and black hole of your own. Christ didn't come to explain quantum physics or biological evolution.  Christ can heal our hearts and help us explain and understand the yearnings of it.  If you don't believe that fine, but I would hope you realize that the more you play out your psychological games and experiments with us "christians" the more evidence you provide for the necessity of Christ, we need him to heal our hearts.  "Mathematics" as I'm sure you've found out, has no equation for that. But thanks for being a nice case study! ;)
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
Did you intend on providing me with such humour today?! ;)  You can somehow understand and explain the yearning in my heart and I imagine you think any silly "christian", yet you can't get over the "pain" in your own heart from the "brain washing" you seem to have been subjected to by all the poor ignorant religious people in your own life. Funny how you can "understand" and "explain" everyone else's heart and intentions via your "GIC" religion, yet this same insight doesn't allow you to escape the pain, frustration, and black hole of your own. Christ didn't come to explain quantum physics or biological evolution.  Christ can heal our hearts and help us explain and understand the yearnings of it.  If you don't believe that fine, but I would hope you realize that the more you play out your psychological games and experiments with us "christians" the more evidence you provide for the necessity of Christ, we need him to heal our hearts.  "Mathematics" as I'm sure you've found out, has no equation for that. But thanks for being a nice case study! ;)
The human mind is nothing but a biochemical computer, it can be changed by changing chemical balances, adjusting external stimuli, or even altering the neural pathways...but it certainly doesn't require some metaphysical presence. It's a physical machine changed by physical things. That is what you are, it may not be what you want to be, you may wish there was something beyond it, but that's just reality, it's good or bad, it's just true.
 

88Devin12

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GIC, are you a Christian (Trinitarian/Creed) or are you not one? No offence intended, I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
The human mind is nothing but a biochemical computer, it can be changed by changing chemical balances, adjusting external stimuli, or even altering the neural pathways...but it certainly doesn't require some metaphysical presence. It's a physical machine changed by physical things. That is what you are, it may not be what you want to be, you may wish there was something beyond it, but that's just reality, it's good or bad, it's just true.
Ah, pooor Greeki, the search for meaninglessness continues....
 

greekischristian

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88Devin12 said:
GIC, are you a Christian (Trinitarian/Creed) or are you not one? No offence intended, I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.
While I don't take issue with Christian High Theology (Christian Praxis and Moral Theology is another matter entirely), on a theoretical level I would submit that it's at least possible, I don't think that the philosophical constructs are truly necessary...I would tend towards the view of a simpler understanding of the concept of a 'deity', namely mathematical consistency.
 

greekischristian

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ialmisry said:
Ah, pooor Greeki, the search for meaninglessness continues....
Why must there be meaning to be value? There are many meaningless things I take great pleasure in and enjoy even more than things that have at least the façade of meaning.
 

greekischristian

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88Devin12 said:
Can't you give a straight answer?
Seemed pretty straight to me...let me spell it out slowly:

Christian morals are bunk.

Christian praxis is bunk.

Christian high theology is pretty cool, theoretically plausable, but overly complex.

A deity akin to that of the deists requires fewer assumptions.

Applying Occam's razor, I tend towards the explination that requires fewer assumptions.
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
Why must there be meaning to be value? There are many meaningless things I take great pleasure in and enjoy even more than things that have at least the façade of meaning.
Like I said, the quest for meaninglessness continues.

greekischristian said:
Seemed pretty straight to me...let me spell it out slowly:

Christian morals are bunk.

Christian praxis is bunk.

Christian high theology is pretty cool, theoretically plausable, but overly complex.

A deity akin to that of the deists requires fewer assumptions.

Applying Occam's razor, I tend towards the explination that requires fewer assumptions.
...and cut yourself in process of assUming.
 

88Devin12

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So you are saying you are not a Christian as far as the Nicene Creed? Give me a straight yes or no...
 

greekischristian

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88Devin12 said:
So you are saying you are not a Christian as far as the Nicene Creed? Give me a straight yes or no...
For the gods' sake, give me a break, I didn't think I could be more obvious. But, for what it's worth, no, I do not enslave myself to every detail of the Nicene Creed. ::)
 

jlerms

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One day when GiC comes back to the Orthodox faith he will most likely be so full of zeal (and with his great power of debate) that he will be a formidable and persuasive advocate of Orthodoxy.  I pray for that humbling day of conversion.  But for now I must be content to read his posts and be happy that he is a part of the OC.net community.

Juliana :) 
 

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I'm happy too, that GiC is a part of OC.net. Furthermore, I hold him in awe for his mathematical skills and cheerfully accept my position in life as a (hopefully) tolerable  subhuman being :)
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
For the gods' sake, give me a break, I didn't think I could be more obvious. But, for what it's worth, no, I do not enslave myself to every detail of the Nicene Creed. ::)
Do you believe any detail of it? (except the "He died part."  I expect that).
 

Aristocles

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ialmisry said:
Do you believe any detail of it? (except the "He died part."  I expect that).
Pay no attention to the troll behind the screen name. Had he originally stated he was a non-Orthodox when he joined and started that drivel, he would have been muted or banned by now.
 

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greekischristian said:
A deity akin to that of the deists requires fewer assumptions.
Actually I would say just the opposite. A deity which does not reveal itself at all can be ignored quite readily in the name of Occam's Razor, since it isn't needed to explain anything, and certainly not a posited lack of miracles.
 

88Devin12

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Since this is Free-For-All, does that mean non-Orthodox (and non-Christians) can post here?
 

Tzimis

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88Devin12 said:
Can't you give a straight answer?
Anybody who spends this much time looking for a reason to not be Orthodox is one of two things. Orthodox or Greek.
 

Asteriktos

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Since this is Free-For-All, does that mean non-Orthodox (and non-Christians) can post here?
Non-Orthodox (and non-Christians) can post anywhere on the board that they want to, as long as they aren't breaking the rules. :)
 

88Devin12

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What are you talking about Demetrios? Were you talking about me? I don't understand.

Ok ty Asteriktos!
It isn't that I hate non-Christians, I'm just not mature enough in Orthodox theology and thinking to guard myself against heresies. While I've been a Christian/Protestant all my life, and I can guard myself against non-Christian ideas, I have a hard time against heresies. Thus knowing who are and aren't Christians or Orthodox Christians is just simply a precaution I take so that I do not fall into heresy.
 

greekischristian

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88Devin12 said:
What are you talking about Demetrios? Were you talking about me? I don't understand.

Ok ty Asteriktos!
It isn't that I hate non-Christians, I'm just not mature enough in Orthodox theology and thinking to guard myself against heresies. While I've been a Christian/Protestant all my life, and I can guard myself against non-Christian ideas, I have a hard time against heresies. Thus knowing who are and aren't Christians or Orthodox Christians is just simply a precaution I take so that I do not fall into heresy.
Don't worry, I'm pretty blunt about these things...but you might want to watch out for those non-Chalcedonians preaching their heresy condemned by the fourth oecumenical synod. It'll probably take you a few months to figure out who's who since the details of the argument are so trivial...and it's always fun to watch someone accidently embrace a technically heretical view because of the argument in favour.
 

greekischristian

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Keble said:
Actually I would say just the opposite. A deity which does not reveal itself at all can be ignored quite readily in the name of Occam's Razor, since it isn't needed to explain anything, and certainly not a posited lack of miracles.
A deity is only needed to explain one thing, the concept of consistency, a deity that does that and only that is the most rational deity according to Occam's Razor. And the revelation of this force is through the unprovable existence of consistency itself.
 

livefreeordie

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greekischristian said:
The human mind is nothing but a biochemical computer, it can be changed by changing chemical balances, adjusting external stimuli, or even altering the neural pathways...but it certainly doesn't require some metaphysical presence. It's a physical machine changed by physical things. That is what you are, it may not be what you want to be, you may wish there was something beyond it, but that's just reality, it's good or bad, it's just true.
Seriously, you should be teaching freshman philosophy and debate the way you maneuver discussions! Maybe even some sophomore classes! ;)  Of course the human mind is a biochemical computer.  I'm talking about Jesus and the heart and you start lecturing on biochemistry. You come here and act like we are rats in a cage.  In reality, you are the one in the cage.  You obviously post here because your heart has a big hole that your chemistry and mathematics can't fill.  It's a clear lesson to us all that science, and math, and biology can't heal our hearts and soul.  Every moment you engage in attacking God, attacking faith, throwing a tantrum at all us "christian" people, etc. the irony of why you even bother speaks loudly to your true condition and the condition of all of our hearts without Christ.  So keep posting.  Please.  This place wasn't nearly as instructional when you were on hiatus! ;)
 

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One day when GiC comes back to the Orthodox faith he will most likely be so full of zeal (and with his great power of debate) that he will be a formidable and persuasive advocate of Orthodoxy.  I pray for that humbling day of conversion.  But for now I must be content to read his posts and be happy that he is a part of the OC.net community.
Juliana   

Rosehip said:
I'm happy too, that GiC is a part of OC.net. Furthermore, I hold him in awe for his mathematical skills and cheerfully accept my position in life as a (hopefully) tolerable  subhuman being :)
I, too, am part of the GIC fan club. I very much appreciate his presence here on OC.net.
 

ialmisry

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livefreeordie said:
Seriously, you should be teaching freshman philosophy and debate the way you maneuver discussions! Maybe even some sophomore classes! ;)  Of course the human mind is a biochemical computer.  I'm talking about Jesus and the heart and you start lecturing on biochemistry. You come here and act like we are rats in a cage.  In reality, you are the one in the cage.  You obviously post here because your heart has a big hole that your chemistry and mathematics can't fill.  It's a clear lesson to us all that science, and math, and biology can't heal our hearts and soul.  Every moment you engage in attacking God, attacking faith, throwing a tantrum at all us "christian" people, etc. the irony of why you even bother speaks loudly to your true condition and the condition of all of our hearts without Christ.  So keep posting.  Please.  This place wasn't nearly as instructional when you were on hiatus! ;)
I remember a poem:

Every time I run that maze
and pull that string
a bell rings
and a man in white smock
asiduous and smart
comes out and give me cheese
how is it
that he has fallen into my power?
 

minasoliman

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Riddikulus said:
I, too, am part of the GIC fan club. I very much appreciate his presence here on OC.net.
I must admit, I'm also a fan of GiC.
 

livefreeordie

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ialmisry said:
I remember a poem:

Every time I run that maze
and pull that string
a bell rings
and a man in white smock
asiduous and smart
comes out and give me cheese
how is it
that he has fallen into my power?
Great poem! It reminds me of raising our 5 kids, my wife and I like to think we are the ones in charge but really the five little mice are the ones with all the power! Time stops and priorities bend to the will of a one-year old when one of our oldest says something like, "Dad, Maximus has poop in his diaper, change it!"  ;)
 

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Blessed Father Seraphim (Rose) on Evolution:

Of all the modern philosophies which Alexey Young, as a school teacher and later as a principal, was confronted with, perhaps the most powerful was that of evolution. He could see that most parents were ignorant of the very formidable scientific evidence against evolution, and also of the fact that evolution was being used (often quite deliberately) to undermine the very foundations of the Christian worldview. He decided to write an article for the sake of these parents, to make them more aware of what their children were being fed intellectually. Sending it to Fr. Seraphim for review, he received it back with a few suggestions and encouragement to print it in Nikodemos.


Some time thereafter, Fathers Herman and Seraphim were surprised to receive a letter expressing displeasure over the article, written by a priest of the Russian Church Abroad who was under the spiritual direction of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston. According to the fathers of the Boston monastery, evolution was a "forbidden subject"; and it hurt this priest to see that Alexey was not agreeing with these authorities. Amazed to read in Nikodemos an article against such an established "fact" as evolution, the priest wrote that Alexey, as a convert who had retained his "Roman perspective," should not be allowed the "privilege of publication," and he stated that he was "withdrawing all support from Nikodemos."


While working on The Kingdom of Man and the Kingdom of God, Fr. Seraphim had made an investigation into the social, philosophical, and spiritual roots of evolutionism. Later, when attending the theological courses instituted by Archbishop John, he had studied the teaching of the Orthodox Church regarding the creation of the universe, as passed on through the Scriptures and the writings of the Holy Fathers.* Thus, having understood for a long time that evolutionism was antithetical to the Orthodox worldview, he concluded that the Orthodox critics of Alexey's article were "just not aware of the whole issue of evolution, whether in its scientific side or in its religious-theological implications." To Alexey he wrote: "Obviously your article has touched something very deep (frankly we are astonished that people so keen on ecclesiastical matters, ecumenism, etc., should seem never to have given much thought to such an important thing as evolution; apparently it is because it seems to be outside the Church sphere)."3
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/fsr_63.aspx
 
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"If we define evolution as the change in the genetic makeup of populations, then we can verify objectively that this change takes place. Population geneticists have already done it in the 1920's - 1970's."

Shades of Thomas Malthus

Zoarthegleaner
 

Pravoslavbob

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A Sombra said:
Blessed Father Seraphim (Rose) on Evolution:

Of all the modern philosophies which Alexey Young, as a school teacher and later as a principal, was confronted with, perhaps the most powerful was that of evolution. He could see that most parents were ignorant of the very formidable scientific evidence against evolution, and also of the fact that evolution was being used (often quite deliberately) to undermine the very foundations of the Christian worldview. He decided to write an article for the sake of these parents, to make them more aware of what their children were being fed intellectually. Sending it to Fr. Seraphim for review, he received it back with a few suggestions and encouragement to print it in Nikodemos.


Some time thereafter, Fathers Herman and Seraphim were surprised to receive a letter expressing displeasure over the article, written by a priest of the Russian Church Abroad who was under the spiritual direction of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston. According to the fathers of the Boston monastery, evolution was a "forbidden subject"; and it hurt this priest to see that Alexey was not agreeing with these authorities. Amazed to read in Nikodemos an article against such an established "fact" as evolution, the priest wrote that Alexey, as a convert who had retained his "Roman perspective," should not be allowed the "privilege of publication," and he stated that he was "withdrawing all support from Nikodemos."


While working on The Kingdom of Man and the Kingdom of God, Fr. Seraphim had made an investigation into the social, philosophical, and spiritual roots of evolutionism. Later, when attending the theological courses instituted by Archbishop John, he had studied the teaching of the Orthodox Church regarding the creation of the universe, as passed on through the Scriptures and the writings of the Holy Fathers.* Thus, having understood for a long time that evolutionism was antithetical to the Orthodox worldview, he concluded that the Orthodox critics of Alexey's article were "just not aware of the whole issue of evolution, whether in its scientific side or in its religious-theological implications." To Alexey he wrote: "Obviously your article has touched something very deep (frankly we are astonished that people so keen on ecclesiastical matters, ecumenism, etc., should seem never to have given much thought to such an important thing as evolution; apparently it is because it seems to be outside the Church sphere)."3
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/fsr_63.aspx
Unfortunately, when it comes to evolution, in my humble opinion, Fr Seraphim has no clue about what he is talking about.
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
Pay no attention to the troll behind the screen name. Had he originally stated he was a non-Orthodox when he joined and started that drivel, he would have been muted or banned by now.
If memory serves me right, when GiC first joined OC.net he was a student at the Greek Orthodox Seminary along with several of our other forum members.  So back then he wasn't non-Orthodox, I'd gather.

And I agree with you, Pravoslavbob.

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Sorry to go off conversation but I was very surprised at the opinion poll.

I thought more Orthodox Christians would have taken the Genesis account more literally.

My Spiritual Father's brother is a monk on Mount Athos and he says that the consensus is that it happened as how it was written.

Maybe our reason and logic has clouded our faith in the Bible?

Just a thought.  ;)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner.

 
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The consensus of whom?

The general consensus of the monastry he is in, which I think is Vatopaidi. :)
 

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Byzantine2008 said:
Sorry to go off conversation but I was very surprised at the opinion poll.

I thought more Orthodox Christians would have taken the Genesis account more literally.
Don't let this trouble you dear brother.  There are billions of Orthodox Christians worldwide.  There are maybe 200 people who belong to this forum that actively participate.  Of them, I would imagine only 70 to 100 or so have taken the poll.  Now, you can begin to get a clearer picture of the results.  Remember also, you can (and will) find every opinion on the internet.  Even amongst our brothers and sisters.  But they are not our adversaries, Satan is.  Our responsibility is, rather than become disheartened or upset with them, to pray for all Orthodox Christians.  :) 
 
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Thank You Brother,

Very comforting words from what seems to be a very wise person.

God Bless
 
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