Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 163 37.6%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 198 45.6%

  • Total voters
    434

EofK

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greekischristian said:
The fallacy is in applying logic from the classical world to the quantum level.
That would be why I'm no scientist.  ;D  I just can't seem to think on a quantum level.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Demetrios G. said:
Quantum mechanics and the big bang haven't bin proven. I myself prefer the Schrödinger's cat paradox over both of them.
Actually, the Schrödinger's cat metaphor is used to describe a principle of quantum mechanics, so to talk about the former is to talk about the latter.
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
That's nice and all, but let's, for just a minute, pretend we're rational beings rather than 'theological' ones.
I'd rather deal with the reality that we are beings with reason.

I know it's probably too much to expect everyone here to at least have a basic grasp of topology and/or computability theory, but here we go. The infinite is only simple if it lacks or has a very mundane topology, an infinite plane for instance. Otherwise it has the potential of being a computational level beyond the finite, it could solve the halting problem, or even more complex problems depending on the degree of infinity...but then, of course, it's no longer simple. If the infinite is useful it cannot be simple, if it is simple it cannot be useful.

I personally like the 'simple god' theory...no person, no consciousness, no will...simply the impersonal reality of consistency...but I would have thought that you would disagree.
The reason why Pascal sought the God of Abraham, and not the god of the philosophers.
 

greekischristian

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ialmisry said:
I'd rather deal with the reality that we are beings with reason.
Apparently not all of us...you, after all, still believe in an invisible man in the sky who cares about your personal sex life.

The reason why Pascal sought the God of Abraham, and not the god of the philosophers.
I can forgive him, he lived in a superstitious time without sound scientific explinations for the origins of the world around him. As for those who follow in his footsteps in the modern world...I fear there can be no reprieve.
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
Apparently not all of us...you, after all, still believe in an invisible man in the sky who cares about your personal sex life.
And you conceive of yourself as an embodied libido.  How rational.  Isn't that all hormone? no thought involved at all.

I can forgive him, he lived in a superstitious time without sound scientific explinations for the origins of the world around him. As for those who follow in his footsteps in the modern world...I fear there can be no reprieve.
Poor Greeki and his kind.  Can't accept his heros as they are: has to sanitize them to fit his pre(mis)conceived notions.
 

greekischristian

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ialmisry said:
And you conceive of yourself as an embodied libido.  How rational.  Isn't that all hormone? no thought involved at all.
I am a biochemical machine, in large part programmed through natural selection to reproduce...thought initially augmented my means to survive and reproduce, today we can be greatful that it has met and exceeded this goal. But yes, I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but there is no meaning to life, no higher power loves you, you are but a speck in a cold dark universe, get over it and get on with life, or fantasize about it until you die, your mind decays, and you enter into utter nothingness...doesn't bother me either way.

Poor Greeki and his kind.  Can't accept his heros as they are: has to sanitize them to fit his pre(mis)conceived notions.
Heros? Heros are for religions, you can't have Buddhism without Buddha, you can't have Islam without Mohammed, you can't have Christianity without Jesus. But with science, it's the idea that is significant...if Pascal hadn't made his discoveries, someone else would no doubt have...he was the first to see something, but by no means the only person in history capable of doing so; even without him science would have advanced. In fact, religion has long been the bane of science and human advancement, even in great minds. Pythagoras had an absurd religious adversion to irrational numbers, had he simply focused on the mathematics and forgot about the philosophical non-sense who knows how much further he could have pushed the boundaries of mathematical knowledge? Likewise with Pascal, had he not been such a fool as to abandon the pursuit of science for such useless trivia as religion and philosophy perhaps he could have made even greater contributions to science, instead the opium of masses stole from science and human progress a few precious years of his research. Religion can be the bane and humiliation of great men, but never their glory.
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
Actually, theologically speaking, God is simple, although inifinite. 
Isn't this the argument heretics use to deny the distinction between the Divine Essence and the Divine Energies?
One Essence, three Hypostases, the Second of which is One Prosopon and two Ousia in one Hypostasis and is homoousious with the First and Second Hypostases.
Yeah, simple aint it? :D
 

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greekischristian said:
I am a biochemical machine, in large part programmed through natural selection to reproduce...thought initially augmented my means to survive and reproduce, today we can be greatful that it has met and exceeded this goal. But yes, I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but there is no meaning to life, no higher power loves you, you are but a speck in a cold dark universe, get over it and get on with life, or fantasize about it until you die, your mind decays, and you enter into utter nothingness...doesn't bother me either way.
Now I know why you've spent so much here and can't keep away, your "cold dark universe" must be a cold dark lonely place considering you see us all as specs.  Pimping on us spaghetti worshipers must be like firing up the hearth and sipping on a cup of hot chocolate!  ;) If you've been programmed to enjoy such a thing that is! ;)

The problem with God, and Love, and Jesus is they are irresistable.  As much as we might mock, doubt, scourge or vent on them, our hearts keep dragging us back.  And thank God, they are always welcome to receive us.
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
Now I know why you've spent so much here and can't keep away, your "cold dark universe" must be a cold dark lonely place considering you see us all as specs.  Pimping on us spaghetti worshipers must be like firing up the hearth and sipping on a cup of hot chocolate!  ;) If you've been programmed to enjoy such a thing that is! ;)

The problem with God, and Love, and Jesus is they are irresistable.  As much as we might mock, doubt, scourge or vent on them, our hearts keep dragging us back.  And thank God, they are always welcome to receive us.
Yes, yes, yes...homo sapiens are social animals, they want to be loved and accepted because it ultimately helps form societies which are beneficial for survival and procreation from an evolutionary perspective. Religion is simply a misplaced attempt to pursue something that truly is good, social behaviour.
 

Demetrios G.

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greekischristian said:
But with science, it's the idea that is significant...never their glory.
Give Glory to him who gave us ideas than.

Philon said: That ideas were the thoughts of God. They were not above God. They were within God.  Ideas are the fixed basis on which the world depended. Phenomena are variable. Whatever we see in this world, changes constantly.   
 

livefreeordie

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greekischristian said:
Yes, yes, yes...homo sapiens are social animals, they want to be loved and accepted because it ultimately helps form societies which are beneficial for survival and procreation from an evolutionary perspective. Religion is simply a misplaced attempt to pursue something that truly is good, social behaviour.
Considering this is an Orthodox Christian board, yikes :eek: religion!, it would seem your continued and prodigious participation here might be explained by a wide variety of interesting reasons but my best guesses would be, 1) you've made us part of your GIC social experimentation institute, playing with monkees, I mean homo sapiens, like me must be fun after all ;), 2) it's an easy way to spend days, (and looking at your posting record I mean days!), venting out at the "mean, ignorant religious type of people who scarred me and continue to scar society", or 3) you haven't completely lost your faith and you keep finding yourself dragged back in into the muck of "fairy tale religion" you abhor.
 

Demetrios G.

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PeterTheAleut said:
Actually, the Schrödinger's cat metaphor is used to describe a principle of quantum mechanics, so to talk about the former is to talk about the latter.
You have to look beyond that. It's actually stating that one can not prove that quantum mechanics can prove anything. because one can never physically observe it. ;)
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
Considering this is an Orthodox Christian board, yikes :eek: religion!, it would seem your continued and prodigious participation here might be explained by a wide variety of interesting reasons but my best guesses would be, 1) you've made us part of your GIC social experimentation institute, playing with monkees, I mean homo sapiens, like me must be fun after all ;), 2) it's an easy way to spend days, (and looking at your posting record I mean days!), venting out at the "mean, ignorant religious type of people who scarred me and continue to scar society", or 3) you haven't completely lost your faith and you keep finding yourself dragged back in into the muck of "fairy tale religion" you abhor.
1 and 2 pretty much hit the nail on the head...not so much with number 3. ;)
 

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greekischristian said:
1 and 2 pretty much hit the nail on the head...not so much with number 3. ;)
If that's true you need to find some new toys, experimenting with us mice while carrying out intellectual vendettas against groups of people based on personal anger could make you very grumpy! ;) They might not be as much fun though.  ;) ;)
 

greekischristian

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livefreeordie said:
If that's true you need to find some new toys, experimenting with us mice while carrying out intellectual vendettas against groups of people based on personal anger could make you very grumpy! ;)
Don't worry, I already am...I just need someone to blame it on. ;)

They might not be as much fun though.  ;) ;)
Probably not, this site gives a pretty good mix of reasonable people and complete nut cases...most just have one or the other.
 

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greekischristian said:
Don't worry, I already am...I just need someone to blame it on. ;)

Probably not, this site gives a pretty good mix of reasonable people and complete nut cases...most just have one or the other.
You should create an alter board ego, SouthernIsChristian.  I'd pay money to watch GIC and SIC go at it! ;) It would take your experiment and play time to a whole other level.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Isn't this the argument heretics use to deny the distinction between the Divine Essence and the Divine Energies?
Yes it was.

Did St. Gregory respond by saying God is complex?

One Essence, three Hypostases, the Second of which is One Prosopon and two Ousia in one Hypostasis and is homoousious with the First and Second Hypostases.
Yeah, simple aint it? :D
Why yes.  We just admit our humble selves cannot understand it, and in silence worship the incomprehensible, as a god comprehensible to finite man cannot be the infinite God.
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
Yes, yes, yes...homo sapiens are social animals, they want to be loved and accepted because it ultimately helps form societies which are beneficial for survival and procreation from an evolutionary perspective. Religion is simply a misplaced attempt to pursue something that truly is good, social behaviour.
You are avoiding the thrust of LiveFree's comment.  Telling.

greekischristian said:
Heros? Heros are for religions, you can't have Buddhism without Buddha, you can't have Islam without Mohammed, you can't have Christianity without Jesus.
I agree with all of your assessments here, but have to tell you the Muslim possibly, the Buddhist definitely, would not.  The source documents of early Isalm would contradict your Muhammad>Islam: they claim, somewhat like what you claim for science, that he taught only what was already there.  Even Mahayana Buddhism does not claim any special status, ontologically speaking, to Buddha: he did what all of us are supposed and can do (so they say).

Yes, no Jesus, no Christianity, no matter how much Liberal Protestantism teaches otherwise.

But with science, it's the idea that is significant
Yes, that's how Newton felt about Leibnitz over calculus, and used his position to cast the latter into obscurity.  Mr. Enlightenment himself, Voltaire, helped him do it.

...if Pascal hadn't made his discoveries, someone else would no doubt have...
...and if Ptolemy hadn't made his discoveries, someone else would no doubt have...

he was the first to see something, but by no means the only person in history capable of doing so; even without him science would have advanced. In fact, religion has long been the bane of science and human advancement, even in great minds.
sanitzing again.

Pythagoras had an absurd religious adversion to irrational numbers, had he simply focused on the mathematics and forgot about the philosophical non-sense who knows how much further he could have pushed the boundaries of mathematical knowledge?
Yes, maybe we could have developed nuclear weapons by the dark ages.

Likewise with Pascal, had he not been such a fool as to abandon the pursuit of science for such useless trivia as religion and philosophy perhaps he could have made even greater contributions to science, instead the opium of masses stole from science and human progress a few precious years of his research.
Pythagoras only got involved with numbers because of his religious beliefs.  Otherwise he could have just as well lived his life in obscurity.  In other words, no religion, no math, so no, he would have not pushed any boundary in math anywhere.

Religion can be the bane and humiliation of great men, but never their glory.
As Pythagoras shows, it is what makes them great men in the first place.
 

greekischristian

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ialmisry said:
You are avoiding the thrust of LiveFree's comment.  Telling.
I was explaining his yearning in his heart to him, that he has no doubt experienced...perhaps if he realizes what it is he can forego the fake solutoin (religion) and focus on the real thing, though probably not.

I agree with all of your assessments here, but have to tell you the Muslim possibly, the Buddhist definitely, would not.  The source documents of early Isalm would contradict your Muhammad>Islam: they claim, somewhat like what you claim for science, that he taught only what was already there.  Even Mahayana Buddhism does not claim any special status, ontologically speaking, to Buddha: he did what all of us are supposed and can do (so they say).
But religion is not an absolute truth, it's a social construct and if any two people develop it the results will in all likelihood be different. So perhaps there may be a religion derived from the culture of the middle east that has some (potentially strong) parallels to Islam without Mohammed, but it's likely that much of the religion would differ.

Yes, no Jesus, no Christianity, no matter how much Liberal Protestantism teaches otherwise.
No, but we might very well have ended up with something quite similar based on one of the other of the hundreds of Messiahs running around at the time...we'd still have the virgin birth, death, resurrection paradigm but I'm sure there'd be various details that differed and the praxis may have developed quite differently.

Yes, that's how Newton felt about Leibnitz over calculus, and used his position to cast the latter into obscurity.  Mr. Enlightenment himself, Voltaire, helped him do it.
And, in the end, we still have Calculus and that's ultimately all that really matters.

Yes, maybe we could have developed nuclear weapons by the dark ages.
And if on account of this scientific and rational thought we had gotten rid of religion by the dark ages, well, first of all they wouldn't have been so dark and, secondly, the world would probably be perfectly safe with them...as it is today.

Pythagoras only got involved with numbers because of his religious beliefs.  Otherwise he could have just as well lived his life in obscurity.  In other words, no religion, no math, so no, he would have not pushed any boundary in math anywhere.
Actually, most sources would say that he got involved because of the influence Thales of Miletus had upon him. He studied mathematics for its own sake and made a religion out of it, a religion that resulted from his mathematics, not that caused it.

As Pythagoras shows, it is what makes them great men in the first place.
He was great because he studied mathematics, his attempt to dogmatize was his weakness.
 

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Wait, forgive me but I am very confused... Greekis, are you a Christian or is that just part of your name? Your post have confused me as to what you believe. Forgive me if you are, but from what i've read, it seems you believe that religion is just entirely made by man and God isn't really the type of God that Orthodoxy and the Bible has said that he is... Correct me if I'm wrong please.
 
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