- Jun 30, 2008
- Reaction score
- Bergamo, Italy
That's exactly what I think. At least, we can share something in common, huh?ytterbiumanalyst said:You confuse several issues here:jckstraw72 said:every kind of death entered because of sin. otherwise we would have to believe that the God Who is life itself actually desires death, and then we'd have to question why man is called to redeem the entire earth and cosmos if they are actually meant to die.
1. Did the Fall occur at one point in time?
2. Is the death spoken of in Genesis 2 and Romans 6 a literal, physical death?
3. Are there things which exist which are not created by God?
4. Is the existence of something proof that God wants it to exist?
I will address these issues presently:
1. You seem to believe that Adam and Eve sinned at one particular point, and that before them no one sinned, and after them all sin because of their sin. Consider this: Adam and Eve did actually sin, but their story is included in Scripture not because their sin causes us death, but because all of us sin in exactly the same way they did. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were banished from the place of ease to a life of hard, painful work, and they had to live a life of repentance in order to receive Eden once again. In the same way, our sin isolates us from others, causes us heavy labour, and forces us to repent to God and to others.
2. We become spiritually dead when we sin. The question of whether physical death is brought about by sin is not one I think we can address. We simply do not know enough about death. Certainly, in some instances, physical death is the direct result of sin. For example, a person can murder, and that death is the result of sin; furthermore, the death penalty brought by our government in punishment for that sin is the result of the sin. However, the murdered person may not have sinned, and yet died anyway.
3. Now, in Romans 6, St. Paul tells us that the Law was instituted to bring us to repentance. In this way, he states that even sin (the breaking of the Law) can be used by God to bring us salvation. Does that mean that God created sin? Absolutely not! St. Paul himself states that even though grace increases as a result of increasing sin, it is impermissible to use God's grace as an excuse to sin. So God can use even the things which He opposes to bring salvation.
4. So, then, if sin and death are not created by God, yet they can be used by Him to save us, then we can say that all things exist for God's glory. Now, can we also say that if God uses something for His glory, that He desires it to exist? I believe that is a leap unsupported by reason or evidence. Certainly we understand that God does not desire us to sin, and even Scripture tells us that God desires that none should perish, but that all repent. So I believe it is fair to say that God opposes sin and death, yet uses even that which is antithetical to His Being to grant us salvation.
I also think that the Bible starts with Adam's fall because he was the first "prophet" who could see God's presence (the beginning of monotheistic religion, possibly) but preferred his egotism and pride to God's offer of immortality. In this sense, we are all sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. He also had descendants who, after the Flood (which I identify with the c. 5600 BCE catastrophic Deluge of the Black Sea), Noachian descendants spread and combined with the pre-existent civilizations. We have proof of this from history, since all Mesopotamian, Indo-European and Egyptian civilizations formed soon after this event in the Middle-East area, and the Ubaidian culture flourished as an empire in the Fertile Crescent, more or less like the empire of the Tower of Babel. It's at that point that all humans outside of the Middle-East got in touch with the Noachian covenant but refused it, thus making necessary the coming of a Saviour. This could also explain the "timing" of the coming of Jesus, some 5600 years after the Flood... a time necessary so that, contaminated by the narrations of the Noachians, all civilizations might have received a common religious heritage from Noah's descendants. Of course, that's my opinion, and I'm not here to impose it, anyway I felt I had to share it with all of you.
In Christ, Alex