Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 163 37.6%
  • both metaphorically and literally

    Votes: 198 45.6%

  • Total voters
    434

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
 

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
minasoliman said:
Jetavan said:
Riddikulus said:
So this God of the Photons is a trickster?
Not really. If we were still in the state of pre-Fall humanity, we would clearly see that the universe is only 7000 years old. But, since our intellect has been dulled by suffering and death, due to the ancestral sin, our sciences seem to point to a universe 14 billion years old. It isn't God who is tricking us. The deception is due to the results of our own free will.
So wait, since we're in the Fallen world, we're probably deceived by math.  So 2+2 really isn't 4.  I knew something was fishy with that equation.

On all seriousness, I think some YEC are strictly YE, and not Young Universe.  But I may be wrong.  I'd be interested to hear the reasoning as well, which most probably would sound something like Jetavan's.
2+2=4 can still be true, because mathematical symbols mean what we define them to mean. If we define 3=2, then 2+3=4 would be true. But it's hard to redefine the age of the universe. However, it is easy to mis-perceive the age of the universe.

Some YEC may be Old Universe Creationists, but they don't make up the bulk of YEC.
 

ytterbiumanalyst

Merarches
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
8,785
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
35
Location
Springfield, MO
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
Then how can our satellites which are not on Earth, such as Voyager, see those stars?
 

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
Then how can our satellites which are not on Earth, such as Voyager, see those stars?
At the moment God created Adam, God created photons just about to hit Adam's eyes, and these photons appeared to have come from the star 14 billion light years away. From the photons that were just about to hit Adam's eyes, to the star, God also created numerous photons that all appeared to have come from the star. So when God created each star, he created that star's own God-created web of photons simultaneously, a web that stretched from the star outwards into the universe, such that the photons looked as if they came from that star. So any satellite that Adam, or we, decide to send into space, will encounter photons that are actually part of that God-created web of photons, rather than photons that derive from the star itself. The photons that derive from the star itself, we won't see for 14 billion years.
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
Then how can our satellites which are not on Earth, such as Voyager, see those stars?
At the moment God created Adam, God created photons just about to hit Adam's eyes, and these photons appeared to have come from the star 14 billion light years away. From the photons that were just about to hit Adam's eyes, to the star, God also created numerous photons that all appeared to have come from the star. So when God created each star, he created that star's own God-created web of photons simultaneously, a web that stretched from the star outwards into the universe, such that the photons looked as if they came from that star. So any satellite that Adam, or we, decide to send into space, will encounter photons that are actually part of that God-created web of photons, rather than photons that derive from the star itself. The photons that derive from the star itself, we won't see for 14 billion years.
Very entertaining explanation.

Remember, there is no spoon!
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

Merarches
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
10,800
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
52
Location
Jackson, MS
Website
www.facebook.com
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
Your question assumes what it needs to prove.

But anyway, is it possible that these stars were created billions of years before the earth?

Selam
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

High Elder
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
706
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
36
Location
Bergamo, Italy
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
Your question assumes what it needs to prove.

But anyway, is it possible that these stars were created billions of years before the earth?

Selam
If you are a literalist YEC you can't believe this. What did God create on the literal Fourth Day of Creation, if stars already existed from billions of years?

Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
Then how can our satellites which are not on Earth, such as Voyager, see those stars?
At the moment God created Adam, God created photons just about to hit Adam's eyes, and these photons appeared to have come from the star 14 billion light years away. From the photons that were just about to hit Adam's eyes, to the star, God also created numerous photons that all appeared to have come from the star. So when God created each star, he created that star's own God-created web of photons simultaneously, a web that stretched from the star outwards into the universe, such that the photons looked as if they came from that star. So any satellite that Adam, or we, decide to send into space, will encounter photons that are actually part of that God-created web of photons, rather than photons that derive from the star itself. The photons that derive from the star itself, we won't see for 14 billion years.
Since you claim that this YEC position is based on the Church tradition and on the Bible as inerrant, where can you find the "photons-created-on-their-way-to-Earth" theory in Scriptures and in the Church Fathers? It is like assuming that God created the world with an appearance of age, but I can't find any scriptural and traditional proof for that. Even st. Basil, a strict creationist as many other Fathers of the Church, clearly interprets that plants were created in the form of seeds, and not as fully grown plants... and some Father (I can't remember who) believed that Adam was created a child, and not an adult, so the general approach of the "appearance of age" seems to lack any unanimous support from Holy Tradition.

In Christ,      Alex
 

Asteriktos

Hypatos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,103
Reaction score
33
Points
48
Age
41
and some Father (I can't remember who) believed that Adam was created a child, and not an adult
"Now, having made man lord of the earth and all things in it, He secretly appointed him lord also of those who were servants in it. They however were in their perfection; but the lord, that is, man, was (but) small; for he was a child; and it was necessary that he should grow, and so come to (his) perfection. And, that he might have his nourishment and growth with festive and dainty meats, He prepared him a place better than this world; excelling in air, beauty, light, food, plants, fruit, water, and all other necessaries of life, and its name is Paradise. And so fair and good was this Paradise, that the Word of God continually resorted thither, and walked and talked with the man, figuring beforehand the things that should be in the future, (namely) that He should dwell with him and talk with him, and should be with men, teaching them righteousness. But man was a child, not yet having his understanding perfected; wherefore also he was easily led astray by the deceiver." - St. Ireneaus, Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, 12

If memory serves, other Church Fathers also put forward this concept. I believe I read about this in Deification in Christ: Orthodox Perspectives on the Nature of the Human Person by Panayiotis Nellas. Unfortunately I sold my copy of this book years ago, and while I have reordered it, the publisher hasn't printed any more copies.
 

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
Your question assumes what it needs to prove.

But anyway, is it possible that these stars were created billions of years before the earth?

Selam
If you are a literalist YEC you can't believe this. What did God create on the literal Fourth Day of Creation, if stars already existed from billions of years?

Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
Then how can our satellites which are not on Earth, such as Voyager, see those stars?
At the moment God created Adam, God created photons just about to hit Adam's eyes, and these photons appeared to have come from the star 14 billion light years away. From the photons that were just about to hit Adam's eyes, to the star, God also created numerous photons that all appeared to have come from the star. So when God created each star, he created that star's own God-created web of photons simultaneously, a web that stretched from the star outwards into the universe, such that the photons looked as if they came from that star. So any satellite that Adam, or we, decide to send into space, will encounter photons that are actually part of that God-created web of photons, rather than photons that derive from the star itself. The photons that derive from the star itself, we won't see for 14 billion years.
Since you claim that this YEC position is based on the Church tradition and on the Bible as inerrant, where can you find the "photons-created-on-their-way-to-Earth" theory in Scriptures and in the Church Fathers? It is like assuming that God created the world with an appearance of age, but I can't find any scriptural and traditional proof for that. Even st. Basil, a strict creationist as many other Fathers of the Church, clearly interprets that plants were created in the form of seeds, and not as fully grown plants... and some Father (I can't remember who) believed that Adam was created a child, and not an adult, so the general approach of the "appearance of age" seems to lack any unanimous support from Holy Tradition.

In Christ,      Alex
The above account is typical from a YEC perspective, which itself is usually understood as one of many "Protestant" perspectives. YEC within the context of Orthodoxy, however, would likely involve a slightly different set of ideas, of which I am not very familiar.
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

High Elder
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
706
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
36
Location
Bergamo, Italy
Jetavan said:
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
Your question assumes what it needs to prove.

But anyway, is it possible that these stars were created billions of years before the earth?

Selam
If you are a literalist YEC you can't believe this. What did God create on the literal Fourth Day of Creation, if stars already existed from billions of years?

Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
Then how can our satellites which are not on Earth, such as Voyager, see those stars?
At the moment God created Adam, God created photons just about to hit Adam's eyes, and these photons appeared to have come from the star 14 billion light years away. From the photons that were just about to hit Adam's eyes, to the star, God also created numerous photons that all appeared to have come from the star. So when God created each star, he created that star's own God-created web of photons simultaneously, a web that stretched from the star outwards into the universe, such that the photons looked as if they came from that star. So any satellite that Adam, or we, decide to send into space, will encounter photons that are actually part of that God-created web of photons, rather than photons that derive from the star itself. The photons that derive from the star itself, we won't see for 14 billion years.
Since you claim that this YEC position is based on the Church tradition and on the Bible as inerrant, where can you find the "photons-created-on-their-way-to-Earth" theory in Scriptures and in the Church Fathers? It is like assuming that God created the world with an appearance of age, but I can't find any scriptural and traditional proof for that. Even st. Basil, a strict creationist as many other Fathers of the Church, clearly interprets that plants were created in the form of seeds, and not as fully grown plants... and some Father (I can't remember who) believed that Adam was created a child, and not an adult, so the general approach of the "appearance of age" seems to lack any unanimous support from Holy Tradition.

In Christ,      Alex
The above account is typical from a YEC perspective, which itself is usually understood as one of many "Protestant" perspectives. YEC within the context of Orthodoxy, however, would likely involve a slightly different set of ideas, of which I am not very familiar.
Yeah, but the problem here is that we are discussing the Creationism/Evolutionism controversy from an Orthodox perspective, and those who support a YEC have claimed YEC to be an Orthodox doctrine, including you. If you want to support YEC you have to bring proofs from Tradition of the above statement that light was created on its way to Earth, otherwise it isn't an Orthodox doctrine... it's a Protestant speculation. I don't want to sound rude... I'm a Biblical literalist, so I can understand your efforts... but the evidence that the stars have been lit some billion years ago just can't be dismissed using this kind of speculations: YEC should offer a valid and demonstrable scientific theory to disprove an Old Universe. If Creation Scientists would be more objective, they would see that all data given by science are just more then speculation. I don't understand how a recent human creation would conflict with an older universe, seeing that the Bible clearly uses a symbolic language when the word YOM (hemera) is adopted in the Genesis account of creation.

In Christ,  Alex
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
I don't think Jetavan is a YEC.  I think he's just presenting what YEC's might believe.
 

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
Abstract: Human creation and evolution is often a theological topic that is dominated by Creationism and a literal interpretation of the Bible and the book of Genesis in particular. As an Orthodox Christian, I have for years been dismayed at the lack of clarity within our own Church on this fundamental issue. In response to this problem, this essay is an attempt to reconcile the traditional dichotomy between Darwinism and Creationism. My intention for writing on this topic is twofold. First, using a hybridized hypothetical theory consisting of mainly Darwinism and Patristic theology, I hope to demonstrate that science and faith share a common ground, perhaps a much wider ground than once thought. Second and most importantly I intend that an honest open-minded reading of this essay will leave the reader with more questions than answers on this vital, yet often ignored question: how can Orthodoxy account for human evolution given the current dichotomy between strict Darwinism and literal Creationism of the Genesis account?
 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
Grace and Peace,

There are actually several very good texts on this topic from both the Roman Catholic viewpoint and that of the Orthodox Christian viewpoint. What are after that a trip to the library wouldn't address?
 

ytterbiumanalyst

Merarches
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
8,785
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
35
Location
Springfield, MO
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
Jetavan said:
Asteriktos said:
I'd still like to get some type of information or answer from a young earth creationist on this point:

"Okay, what catastrophe within the last 7000 years caused us to be able to see stars that are billions of light years away?"
God created light photons that appeared to have left stars a billion years ago. These photons were created 7000 years ago, 7000 light years from earth, directly between earth and the stars.
Okay, if God created beams of light between earth and the stars, how then can we see those same stars from our satellites that we've sent hurtling through space?
God created light photons not only between earth and the star, but between any point in space and the star.
Then how can our satellites which are not on Earth, such as Voyager, see those stars?
At the moment God created Adam, God created photons just about to hit Adam's eyes, and these photons appeared to have come from the star 14 billion light years away. From the photons that were just about to hit Adam's eyes, to the star, God also created numerous photons that all appeared to have come from the star. So when God created each star, he created that star's own God-created web of photons simultaneously, a web that stretched from the star outwards into the universe, such that the photons looked as if they came from that star. So any satellite that Adam, or we, decide to send into space, will encounter photons that are actually part of that God-created web of photons, rather than photons that derive from the star itself. The photons that derive from the star itself, we won't see for 14 billion years.
Here you contradict yourself. First you say God only put photons between the Earth and a star, and now you say the photons are 360 degrees stretching outward from the star (which is scientifically correct). You can't have it both ways.

And what about the new stars which are born all the time? Does God place a web of photons around each of them as they are formed? What of the stars which die? Does God suddenly snuff out the web of photons? Apply Occam's Razor here and tell me which is more believable: that God in the beginning made the stars to appear old when they are not, and constantly adjusts the universe so that we think it's older than it actually is; or that the universe actually is as old as it appears.
 

minasoliman

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
20,198
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NJ
Jetavan said:
Abstract: Human creation and evolution is often a theological topic that is dominated by Creationism and a literal interpretation of the Bible and the book of Genesis in particular. As an Orthodox Christian, I have for years been dismayed at the lack of clarity within our own Church on this fundamental issue. In response to this problem, this essay is an attempt to reconcile the traditional dichotomy between Darwinism and Creationism. My intention for writing on this topic is twofold. First, using a hybridized hypothetical theory consisting of mainly Darwinism and Patristic theology, I hope to demonstrate that science and faith share a common ground, perhaps a much wider ground than once thought. Second and most importantly I intend that an honest open-minded reading of this essay will leave the reader with more questions than answers on this vital, yet often ignored question: how can Orthodoxy account for human evolution given the current dichotomy between strict Darwinism and literal Creationism of the Genesis account?
A very interesting article...

What I like about the article the most is the recognition of what a "spirit" is.  It's interesting that he doesn't limit the definition of the "spirit" as "self-conscious" or "rational," which is something I also personally avoid, since there is a neurobiological definition of these things.  However, I also acknowledge we are the only species living today with these characteristics, which may make it so easy to define our spirit as just that.  But I see the spirit as the gateway to a transcendance of all the "physical" characteristics of humanity.  But I also see the spirit as the spiritual side to self-awareness and rationality, upon which sits in the physical side of the brain.  As soon as humanity was able to develop these characteristics, I find that the spirit becomes their enhancement as well, or what enlivens the physical side.  I think perhaps he needs to write a separate long article on what it means for man to possess a spirit, and connect that as well with talk about the angelic realm, in which according to Church fathers are spirits, while we are in the higher heirarchy of ape-spirits.

He interestingly connects his thought experiments to the moralities of vegetative patients and the zygote.  These in my opinion can still be disputed.  Concerning the zygote:  if man is ever to develop a technique of cloning another man simply by the use of a somatic cell in that body, then defining what a "person" is is not going to be that easy and straightforward, and I've discussed this in another thread in my personal thought experiment.  Concerning patients with vegetative states:  I'm not sure if one can really be sure to define these as "alive" in the spiritual sense.  Maybe?  It's too early to decide.  I've like how my father once told me as a child that we live in a home, and as we age, the home has poorer conditions for the spirit to live in, and one day, the spirit may not find it fit to stay in the home anymore.  It could be possible with the author's definition of a spirit that a vegetative patient's brain is not a home fit for a spirit to stay, but we do not know for sure.

He didn't delve into other parts of the evolutionary theory and theology.  For example, although I know this is just a thought experiment, it would very helpful for him to do a comparison and contrast of Church fathers on their beliefs of origins as well as the scientific ideas of the time, and how their thoughts have developed and changed over the centuries, to prove the "contextual" point of view in Biblical interpretation.  He also didn't delve into the idea of the number of first humans that existed, or how one is to read things like being created out of a rib.

Nevertheless, it's a good start to keep people thinking and discussing, and I commend Mr. Meletis.  I hope he writes more in the future considering my concerns and many others' concerns.  Man would I love to have a conversation with this guy.
 
Top