That is a non sequitur and not responsive.Jonathan Gress said:You might as well be asking how is it physically possible for the risen Christ to pass through closed doors. Stop being so obtuse. The definition of a mystery is that it's inexplicable by ordinary natural laws.Sauron said:Do you understand why saying, "oh, it was different somehow" is not an explanation of anything?Jonathan Gress said:I'm saying that it was different in some way. Given that prelapsarian nature operated under different laws than our postlapsarian nature, as we observe it today with our scientific tools, we don't really have any grounds, logically speaking, to object to descriptions that seem to contradict our current understanding of nature, viz. absence of death, rotting, defecation, sexual intercourse etc.Sauron said:My questions were not about how hard to understand the issues are. I asked, according to the patristic quotes, how did the nitrogen cycle work, if there was respiration, and about Adam's anatomy. Please be responsive. I think we could agree that the pre-fall world has respiration because of the reference to animals and people having the "breath of life", yes?Jonathan Gress said:I think I already mentioned that it was hard to understand.Sauron said:So Adam didn't have an anus? How about intestines? According to the patristic quotes, how did the nitrogen cycle work?Jonathan Gress said:The Fr Seraphim essay also provides patristic quotes showing that there wasn't even defecation in Paradise, so part of your argument is moot. And I suppose "fruit of the herb" is not meant to be alive. The point is that, however hard it is for us to understand, there was no death of any kind in Paradise.Sauron said:It has nothing to do with fossils. Plants were given to man to eat in the pre-fall world. Plants are alive, so I do not understand how man could eat a living plant and not kill it. Was the plan that Adam would pick a peach off a tree, eat it, poop out the whole peach, and then stick it back on the tree?Jonathan Gress said:Sure, I understand. It is very hard for anyone to believe that there was literally no animal or plant death before the first humans, since we have all those fossils that appear to have died well before humankind appeared. You have to resort to arguing that all the dating is wrong, which is tough. But would you be willing to accept that the death of those animals and plants is in some mystical sense caused by Man's transgression? Or do you feel that this would be impossible to believe, given that animals died before Adam in time? If impossible, is this because you think it's important for sin to precede death in time in order to have caused death?minasoliman said:All my life, animal and plant death before the Fall didn't seem to be an issue to me. Most of the Coptic Sunday School servants, priests, and bishops I knew taught me a version of Old Earth Creationism. It comes to my shock therefore to read posts by Gebre as espousing the "Ethiopian" view, but doesn't seem to realize he is probably contradicting the view of HH Pope Shenouda. And I'm not talking about evolution, just merely the possibility of animal and plant death before the Fall.
Was there respiration in Paradise?
You suppose that "fruit of the herb" is not meant to be alive? What does that mean?
I truly do not understand what you meant when you said that "fruit of the herb" is not meant to be alive. Could you please explain what you mean by that?
Beyond that, you have failed to respond to my questions. I asked if the patristic quotes had an explanation for the nitrogen cycle in Paradise. Do they?
I asked if you think there was breathing in the Paradise. Was there?
I asked if Adam has intestines and an anus. Did he?
I asked you meant when you said that "fruit of the herb" is not meant to be alive. Could you please explain what you mean by that?
I do not know how I can make my inquiry any clearer.
I think Genesis 2 makes it pretty clear that Adam breathed. I don't know why you don't even concede that point.