• A blessed Nativity / Theophany season to all! For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

Criteria for Post-Schism Hymnography

AntoniousNikolas

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
7,237
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
East Coast, USA
To what extent is post schism Western hymnography incorporated into the various Western Rite Liturgies and the extra-liturgical services of the Western Rite churches?  What criteria is used to evaluate whether or not a particular piece of post-schism music is appropriate for baptism into the life of a Western Rite Orthodox community?
 

AntoniousNikolas

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
7,237
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
East Coast, USA
Nobody?  Really?  How about this then: what makes music Orthodox?  What criteria would you suggest for the creation of new Orthodox hymns in a Western cultural context or for the baptism of existing Western music into the life of the Church?  These articles from the Antiochians and the OCA respectively make a nice jumping off point as far as I'm concerned, but I'd really love to hear some of your thoughts:

http://www.antiochian.org/node/22682

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/orthodox-church-america-orthodox-worship-vs-contemporary-worship/
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
1
Points
0
No instruments, Orthodox content and traditional chants would be fine by my standards. Maybe some polyphony too since Russians already did that. Nothing too operatic though.

I wouldn't object organs either if they aren't used to accompany chants. They could be used like church bells are used today in certain parts of liturgy. Maybe during processions or something.

No contemporary music and absolutely no synthesizers.
 

AntoniousNikolas

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
7,237
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
East Coast, USA
Alpo said:
No instruments, Orthodox content and traditional chants would be fine by my standards. Maybe some polyphony too since Russians already did that. Nothing too operatic though.

I wouldn't object organs either if they aren't used to accompany chants. They could be used like church bells are used today in certain parts of liturgy. Maybe during processions or something.

No contemporary music and absolutely no synthesizers.
I agree entirely, but where (in your conception) does the distinction between the stuff you'd eschew and the stuff you'd permit lie?
 

wgw

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
5,816
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Cast adrift in a lifeboat of the SS Aurora
I myself would have no problems with the organ and choral music of Herbert Howells and Healey Willan being used, with the only modification being omitting the Filioque.  In fact if a WR parish committed to using them along with standard Gregorian chant exclusively, Id go.  Of course Ralph Vaughan Williams and the choral anthems of Samuel Sebastien Wesley are most exquisite.  Actually the entire Anglican musical corpus is IMO mostly usable, and where it isn't, its fairly obvious.  Even in the hymns of Charles Wesley, John Wesley was secretly ordained a bishop by Erasmus of Arcadia, probably, in 1763 (he refused to deny it without confirming it in the 1770s, had he admitted it, under the Praemenuire Act he would have been liable to decapitation as an Anglican cleric), and advocated something fairly close to Orthodoxy, differing primarily in his heterodox views on baptismal regeneration and his Aldersgate experience which could be viewed as prelest.  But, he still apparently had uncanonical episcopal status as an improperly ordained Greek Orthodox bishop, and with this in mind, he edited the hymns of his brother, setting aside those he viewed as doctrinally unsound.  And as for what's left, well, Christ the Lord is Risen Today for example is so obviously Orthodox that it was sung congregationally following a Tridentine mass I attended on Pascha Sunday at 1 PM last year.

And if the Latin Mass Catholics, who are pretty hardcore, will sing it, it has to be usable as far as we're concerned. 

I take a liberal view when it comes to Western church music just as I take a liberal view of the Western Church.  While I recognize the Orthodox Church as being the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I do not regard Western Christians as accursed heretics but simply as the victims of an evil Frankish Emperor and a power hungry Pope, who subjected them to centuries of dogmatic instability and denied them access to the Truth entire.  But they could not Ron them of that knowledge of Chrost once taught, and I interpret the Protestant Reformation as being a misguided and misdirected rebellion against the heretical excesses of a corrupt Rome.  But we can determine which parts of Western Christianity are worth salvaging by evaluating them in comparison to Orthodox equivalents, and I think we will find most of the Western Rite in its Roman, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Carthusian, Dominican, Sarum, Anglican, and Swedish Lutheran variants, remains usable with minor cleanups, alterations and restorations.
 

Regnare

High Elder
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
523
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Toronto, Canada
I think most of it would be fine. My two criteria would be
1) No explicit heresy or commemoration of post-schism Roman Catholic saints. In some cases you can work around this; for example, Aquinas's Eucharistic hymn "Tantum Ergo" contains a statement of the Filioque in its last stanza, but when translated into English you can eliminate this pretty easily. The big problem here would be adopting settings of the Creed where the Filioque is assumed by the writer.
2) I wouldn't be surprised if this is a problem for the Russians, but polyphony should not be so ornamented that it obscures the words of the hymn.
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Antonious Nikolas said:
Alpo said:
No instruments, Orthodox content and traditional chants would be fine by my standards. Maybe some polyphony too since Russians already did that. Nothing too operatic though.

I wouldn't object organs either if they aren't used to accompany chants. They could be used like church bells are used today in certain parts of liturgy. Maybe during processions or something.

No contemporary music and absolutely no synthesizers.
I agree entirely, but where (in your conception) does the distinction between the stuff you'd eschew and the stuff you'd permit lie?
I don't know any specific line but I believe parishioners can determine what feels Orthodox. This seems idealistic but I believe it could work. I know that parishioners objected VII reforms when they were first introduced. People like tradition.
 

Sleeper

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
1,350
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
U.S.
It depends on the heritage of the parish. Mine, for example, uses the 1940 Hymnal virtually wholesale (eliminating any references to the filioque, of course) because we were a formerly Anglican parish. This is perfectly in keeping with the blessings and directives given to the AWRV.

Organ is used to accompany the hymns, but not the chant settings.
 

ElderSilas

Newbie
Joined
Mar 29, 2015
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Eastern USA
I do not speak with authority. But it seems that there is a basic standard in ROCOR WR: No Western heresy, No Western instrumentation, Use of Gregorian Chant, Hymns within the Orthodox period. There are no ecclesial or scholarly agreements as to how far after 1054 Orthodoxy survived "in certain locales" in Western Europe. Certainly by the Norman Conquest 1066 all of the continent could be considered in schism.
 

AntoniousNikolas

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
7,237
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
East Coast, USA
ElderSilas said:
I do not speak with authority. But it seems that there is a basic standard in ROCOR WR: No Western heresy, No Western instrumentation, Use of Gregorian Chant, Hymns within the Orthodox period. There are no ecclesial or scholarly agreements as to how far after 1054 Orthodoxy survived "in certain locales" in Western Europe. Certainly by the Norman Conquest 1066 all of the continent could be considered in schism.
This is very useful, Elder.  Many thanks.
 
Top