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Debts or Trespasses?

Alpha60

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The Authorized Version renders the Our Father in the Gospel of St. Matthew as “forgive us our trespassers, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us”, whereas I occasionally hear a variation on the St. Luke version, along the lines of “forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.”  Traditional Anglican BCPs and some Orthodox liturgies opt for Trespasses, but I have also heard some English language Orthodox liturgies go for debts/debtors instead (which I believe is also the wording the ESV uses for Matthew).

What does your parish or jurisdiction use, and which form of the prayer do you personally prefer for your private devotions, and why?
 

platypus

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I most often attend OCA diocese of the South parishes, which say debts. This varies from diocese to diocese in the OCA, or perhaps it's parish to parish.

I prefer debts. I don't know the Greek, although in the Vulgate it's "debitas" which is usually translated as "debts." I like debts because I think of monetary debt as pretty significant, and so the word debt stresses the seriousness of the situation to me. The word tresspasses doesn't. It makes me think of walking across someone else's lawn.

 

Orthodox_Slav

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I say debts
 

RaphaCam

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FWIW, I have read countless Portuguese versions of the Lord's Prayer, and I never read any that didn't use dívidas (debts) apart from NTLH, which is explicitly paraphrastic, meant to be used by simple people. Both are reasonable translations for the Greek original, but "debts" is more literal, evoking the imagery of parables such as St. Luke 7:40-47 and St. Matthew 18:21-35, while "trespasses" is more paraphrastic. Church Slavonic also uses "debts" (длъгы).
 

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My former OCA DOS parish said "debts", current Antiochian parish says "trespasses."

I prefer debts just because that's how I learned it.
 

Iconodule

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From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
 

RaphaCam

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Iconodule said:
From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
I had never heard this, but it actually makes sense.
 

hecma925

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Jesus said "debts", so it's good enough for me.
 

Agabus

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RaphaCam said:
Iconodule said:
From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
I had never heard this, but it actually makes sense.
DBH has definitely argued for it in his post-translation writings.
 

Luke

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I think the Greek word means something along the line of "debts," but our Church still says, ". . . and forgive us are trespasses . . ."
 

Arachne

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Luke said:
I think the Greek word means something along the line of "debts," but our Church still says, ". . . and forgive us are trespasses . . ."
It does (literally, 'what we owe'). But we say 'trespasses' too, and I prefer it. 'Debts' just doesn't have the same ring to it. :p
 

Luke

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True.  I vaguely remember reading an article that worked in both meanings.
 

RaphaCam

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Agabus said:
RaphaCam said:
Iconodule said:
From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
I had never heard this, but it actually makes sense.
DBH has definitely argued for it in his post-translation writings.
DBH = David Bentley Hart?
 

Dominika

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Ofc I don't say this prayer in English, but in Polish, Serbian, Church Slavonic or Arabic, depending on situation.

In Polish there is "winy" - "winowajcom", so "guilts" - "that are guilt toward us".

In Serbian and Church Slavonic there is "debts" - "debtors".

In Arabic there is different construction
"and leave us for us that what is on us as we leave for whom that is on us"
 

Ainnir

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"Trespasses" both for what my parish uses and what I prefer.
 

Antonis

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Agabus said:
RaphaCam said:
Iconodule said:
From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
I had never heard this, but it actually makes sense.
DBH has definitely argued for it in his post-translation writings.
Of course he has. :p Not a judgment on whether he’s right in this case or not, but he reads everything as a Marxist struggle.
 

Prufrock

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Consider also the Latin Pater Noster: "et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris".

dēbitum n (genitive dēbitī); second declension

A debt; something that is owed to another person or entity.
An obligation.
A rent, rental payment
 

Iconodule

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Antonis said:
Agabus said:
RaphaCam said:
Iconodule said:
From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
I had never heard this, but it actually makes sense.
DBH has definitely argued for it in his post-translation writings.
Of course he has. :p Not a judgment on whether he’s right in this case or not, but he reads everything as a Marxist struggle.
To really read everything as Marxist struggle, he would have to be a materialist and he is stridently not materialist.
 

Justin Kolodziej

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Catholics say "trespasses", my Greek parish says "trespasses", I normally say "trespasses", but if I'm reading out of something I'll go with "debts" and "the evil one" if they used that instead.
 

RaphaCam

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Iconodule said:
Antonis said:
Agabus said:
RaphaCam said:
Iconodule said:
From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
I had never heard this, but it actually makes sense.
DBH has definitely argued for it in his post-translation writings.
Of course he has. :p Not a judgment on whether he’s right in this case or not, but he reads everything as a Marxist struggle.
To really read everything as Marxist struggle, he would have to be a materialist and he is stridently not materialist.
Over the last decades, many intellectuals have shown to be quite Marxian happily coming short of Marxism.
 

Agabus

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RaphaCam said:
Iconodule said:
Antonis said:
Agabus said:
RaphaCam said:
Iconodule said:
From what I've read, "debts" is the most accurate rendering and debt and debt-relief in the most literal sense were a major concern for the audience. The "lead us not into temptation" may in fact be a reference to a trial in debtors' court.
I had never heard this, but it actually makes sense.
DBH has definitely argued for it in his post-translation writings.
Of course he has. :p Not a judgment on whether he’s right in this case or not, but he reads everything as a Marxist struggle.
To really read everything as Marxist struggle, he would have to be a materialist and he is stridently not materialist.
Over the last decades, many intellectuals have shown to be quite Marxian happily coming short of Marxism.
If something is 63 percent correct, it's OK to be 63 percent with it.
 
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