Severian
Taxiarches
I know Met. Bishoy wrote an article arguing that he did not. Is this the universal OO view?
I think it matters when some bishops want to read the Bible, apply their own understanding with reference to the fathers, and then teach their opinion dogmatically, sometimes to the extent of persecuting those who don't buy their "scholarship". We need to stand up to such corruption. I understand though what you mean, the issue itself doesn't matter to our salvation, it's just the attitude of those behind these "controversies" that needs to be resisted.Schultz said:Why does it matter? Seriously?
Wondered the same thing. I guess there are some controversies ripping through the OO world according to Jonathan.Schultz said:Why does it matter? Seriously?
In my opinion, it is very important, as the reception of the mysteries by Judas and the subsequent entry into him of Satan is an important warning regarding the need to approach the mysteries with the right disposition, in a spirit of true repentance. Some unfortunately treat the mysteries as if they are inherently beneficial regardless of the state of our soul, such that we should commune regularly regardless of whether we are confessing, repenting, and properly preparing. That Judas communed and then betrayed Christ shows us that the holy mysteries will not be of any benefit to us if we do not receive them properly.Schultz said:Why does it matter? Seriously?
The controversy is this:orthonorm said:Wondered the same thing. I guess there are some controversies ripping through the OO world according to Jonathan.
I honestly would not know... ???Did Judas Partake of the Eucharist According to OOxy?
Thanks. That really helps a lot. And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.jah777 said:I realize that the OP is asking about the OO view, but for what it is worth, here are some quotes from our Fathers:
St. John Chrysostom, Homily on Matthew 26:26-28
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXXVIII.html
AH! how great is the blindness of the traitor! Even partaking of the mysteries, he remained the same; and admitted to the most holy table, he changed not. And this Luke shows by saying, that after this Satan entered into him, not as despising the Lord’s body, but thenceforth laughing to scorn the traitor’s shamelessness. For indeed his sin became greater from both causes, as well in that he came to the mysteries with such a disposition, as that having approached them, he did not become better, either from fear, or from the benefit, or from the honor….
St. John Chrysostom, Sermon on the Betrayal by Judas 1.6
Let no one…be a deceiver, no one full of evil, no one holding venom in his mind, lest his partaking lead to condemnation. After Judas took what was offered, the devil hastened into him, not because the devil despised the Lord’s body but because he despised Judas for his shamelessness. Thus you may learn concerning those who partake unworthily of the divine mysteries, that these especially are the ones the devil invades and enters at once, just like he did to Judas of old.
St. Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on the Gospel of John
In haste Judas hurries away in obedience to the will of Satan. Like one stung and goaded on to madness, he rushes from the house. He sees nothing that can overcome his love of gain, and, marvelous though it is, we shall find him in no way benefited by the gift from Christ due to his irrepressible greed for money.
St. Jerome, Against Jovianus, Book II
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.vi.II.html
In the Christian mysteries there is one means of sanctification for the master and the servant, the noble and the low-born, for the king and his soldiers, and yet, that which is one varies according to the merits of those who receive it. “Whosoever shall eat or drink unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.” Does it follow that because Judas drank of the same cup as the rest of the apostles, that he and they are of equal merit?
Can't it also be interpreted that the bread which Judas received was the Eucharist? After all, that consecrated bread is what caused Satan to enter into him, and in our Ethiopian Liturgy the priests declare that for those who partake unworthily the Eucharist is a curse of the fires of hell!Salpy said:I don't know about any universal view, but I always thought he did not. Didn't he leave before the Eucharist was given?
Looks like Saint Yohannes Affework just might agree..St. John Chrysostom, Sermon on the Betrayal by Judas 1.6
Let no one…be a deceiver, no one full of evil, no one holding venom in his mind, lest his partaking lead to condemnation. After Judas took what was offered, the devil hastened into him, not because the devil despised the Lord’s body but because he despised Judas for his shamelessness. Thus you may learn concerning those who partake unworthily of the divine mysteries, that these especially are the ones the devil invades and enters at once, just like he did to Judas of old.
Its called synergy. God's grace cooperates with individual human beings, flaws and all, and in this regard God respects our faults by allowing them because they are our own and part of ourselves. God loves us, and love accepts fault while Grace gradually transforms it towards perfection, so that in Orthodox we are not perfect, we are in the process of perfecting. Even a reverend Bishop is not perfect, Infallible clergy are for the scholastic LatinsSeverian said:^Thank you again, Jah777. Your posts have really helped me out a lot on this thread.
To my OO (specifically, Coptic) brethren: Why does Met. Bishoy seem to hold several theological opinions which are clearly against the teachings of the Fathers and the traditional beliefs of the Church?
I don't know His Eminence's background very well. But I would not be surprised if H.E. was not given sufficient training and resources before being thrown into the difficult task of being responsible for dialogue with the other groups, especially the Roman Catholics. It would be very hard to respond properly, to know what to argue against, and what to agree with without a very solid academic preparation. I cannot judge or fault H.E. for making errors in such a difficult role, with so little support. But, if there is insufficient humility, either through ignorance of what is proper, or through pride, to avoid the patriarchate rather than seeking it, and to be willing to dialogue with members of our own Church rather than rule so sternly, this I, and we all, have to say no to, while sympathizing with the hard conditions that probably lead here.Severian said:^Thank you again, Jah777. Your posts have really helped me out a lot on this thread.
To my OO (specifically, Coptic) brethren: Why does Met. Bishoy seem to hold several theological opinions which are clearly against the teachings of the Fathers and the traditional beliefs of the Church?
And is he really a candidate for the Papacy? If so, this really worries me...
Did H.E. respond? How do you think he will react? Forgive me if this question seems childish or silly. But, H.E. clearly holds to several views not only unfounded in, but completely contradicted by, the Patristic writings. This is a matter which touches my soul. How has H.E. responded to H.G. Bishop Youssef and Fr. Athanasius Iskander? Is he, as you say, "bullying them", as he has "bullied" others?Jonathan said:Fr. Athanasius Iskander responds to "Did Judas Partake of Holy Communion?" by H.E. Anba Bishoy
http://canon15.nicaea.ca/index.php/discussion-with-h-e-anba-bishoy/36-fr-athanasius-responds-to-did-judas-partake-of-holy-communion-by-h-e-anba-bishoy
Supposedly, yes.copticboy7 said:Is H.E. Bishoy the same who is quoted saying something about the damnation of Catholics and Protestants?
I did not say bullied *them*, I said reputation of bullying. What H.E. has interacted with these three I have no idea, besides the three statements H.E. has released (in Arabic only except for the first) on H.E.'s website. I think this statements speak for themselves. The 2nd one so far has been translated into English by the people behind canon15.ca, so you can check http://canon15.nicaea.ca/index.php/discussion-with-h-e-anba-bishoySeverian said:Did H.E. respond? How do you think he will react? Forgive me if this question seems childish or silly. But, H.E. clearly holds to several views not only unfounded in, but completely contradicted by, the Patristic writings. This is a matter which touches my soul. How has H.E. responded to H.G. Bishop Youssef and Fr. Athanasius Iskander? Is he, as you say, "bullying them", as he has "bullied" others?Jonathan said:Fr. Athanasius Iskander responds to "Did Judas Partake of Holy Communion?" by H.E. Anba Bishoy
http://canon15.nicaea.ca/index.php/discussion-with-h-e-anba-bishoy/36-fr-athanasius-responds-to-did-judas-partake-of-holy-communion-by-h-e-anba-bishoy
Sorry, misread you.Severian said:^Thank you. And for clarification, I never meant to say that you accused him of bullying *them*. I used the words "as you say" to indicate that I was using your vocabulary (I.e. "bullying"). Sorry, if you feel I misinterpreted you.
The principle here is that a Hierarch of our Church is teaching several beliefs which are contradictory to the teachings of the Fathers and is supposedly (I am not endorsing anything here as absolute fact) harassing Priests and Bishops who are teaching the Orthodox and Patristic view.Kerdy said:This is a question I never considered. I think its ok to explore the possibilities, but caution should be exercised.
I think we need to pray for His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy, as he has clearly become quite troublesome in the election process, and has given himself an authority being an infallible interpreter and defender of the Orthodox faith. His method of defining Orthodoxy is proof-texting the Scriptures, as well as seeming to take a semi-magical approach of Apostolic succession. I think His Grace Bishop Serapion as well as His Grace Bishop Youssef takes a more sensible approach, with a certain amount of respect as well as warning. Fr. Athanasius, while I agree with his articles, he seems to have a bit more of a confrontational tone (which I'm not saying is wrong or right, but with someone like His Eminence, who is known to have a high self-ego, you might need to take that sensible approach). For instance, their graces have shown that the diocesan metropolitans who became Popes were very successful, righteous, and holy Metropolitans, who would seem quite qualified on a superficial basis, but when they became Popes, they put the Coptic Church through dark ages. In this, you see that their graces are alluding to His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy as a great and holy bishop with well-to-do intentions, but should reconsider his seeking out the papacy before he spirals downward to a downfall.Severian said:The principle here is that a Hierarch of our Church is teaching several beliefs which are contradictory to the teachings of the Fathers and is supposedly (I am not endorsing anything here as absolute fact) harassing Priests and Bishops who are teaching the Orthodox and Patristic view.Kerdy said:This is a question I never considered. I think its ok to explore the possibilities, but caution should be exercised.
For even in approaching the Kiss of Peace with our brothers and sisters, we do so in righteousness and not imitate the unrepentant behavior of Judas here as well, so also we learn that we should not go with our hearts unrepentant to the Eucharist, as Judas did as St. John Chrysostom alluded to.Christ, our God, the fearsome and incomprehensible power of God the Father. O You, Who sit upon
the flaming throne of the Cherubim and are served by the fiery powers and You are a consuming fire, being God.
Because of the ineffable act of coming down and Your love to mankind, you did not burn the deceitful betrayer when he approached You. But You greeted him with a kiss of friendship, drawing him to repentance and the comprehension of his audacity.
Make us also worthy, O our Master, in this fearful hour being in one mind, without anything of a divided heart, and the rest of the evils. That we may greet one another with a holy kiss;
And do not condemn us, if we are not entirely clean - as pleases Your goodness - from the filth of sin and deceit and the remembrance of evil, which brings forth death.
But You, in Your ineffable and undeclarable compassion, knowing the weakness and the drowning of our creation -
Wipe out every defilement of our transgressions, that this mystery, which is Your divinity, may not be a judgment
against us condemnation.
Severian said:http://www.arabwestreport.info/year-2012/week-13/31-text-statute-patriarch-election
The above article says a Patriarch, among other things, must "be an Egyptian Coptic Orthodox Christian."
Does the Patriarch really have to be of Egyptian ethnicity? Throughout history several Syrian Orthodox Bishops have become Coptic Patriarchs and vice-versa (from what I have been told). Has the rule changed? Obviously, someone of Egyptian ethnicity is preferable with all the politics going on right now, but is it really a canon/rule? It also says that the voters have to be either Coptic or Ethiopian.
And if Met. Bishoy is really insistent on being a candidate for the Patriarchate, and if he succeeds, I fear he will walk in the same dark path as Pope Yusab II, who was likewise a Metropolitan-turned Patriarch.
Much like the Patriarch of Constantinople has to be a citizen of the Turkish Republic.Jonathan said:However, according to the current bylaws (from the 1950's, from the Egyptian state), only an Egyptian citizen of Egyptian parents may be selected.
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:The question is whether or not Judas merely received the bread in his hands or whether he actually ate it. I am not a Greek scholar. I looked up the word "receive" in my Strong's Concordance, and it seems to indicate that he merely took the bread but did not eat it. However, some biblical translations state that he did indeed actually eat the bread.
At first, one would think that it would be impossible for satan to enter someone's heart through the very bread that Our Lord blessed. It seems more plausible to assume that Judas took the bread but that satan entered his heart before he could eat it. But then we remember St. Paul's strong admonition to the Corinthians about not receiving the Sacraments in an uworthy manner, since doing so brings judgment upon ourselves (I Corinthians 11:29). And certainly Judas did not receive the bread from Our Lord in a worthy mannner.
So, my own humble conclusion - FWIW - is that it doesn't really matter whether or not Judas ate the bread. Our concern is to make sure that we avail ourselves of the Sacraments and that we do so in a worthy manner. ("Worthy" not in the since that we feel we deserve or have earned the right to receive Our Lord in the Mysteries, but "worthy" in the since that we have confessed our sins, repented, and remained within the fellowship of the Church.)
Selam
Orthodox11 said:Much like the Patriarch of Constantinople has to be a citizen of the Turkish Republic.Jonathan said:However, according to the current bylaws (from the 1950's, from the Egyptian state), only an Egyptian citizen of Egyptian parents may be selected.
The Armenians in Constantinople have the same restrictions. It's the Turks' way of controlling things, as well as making it harder for the Armenians to find a good patriarch as their numbers there get even smaller than they already are. Iraq has a similar law: The Armenian Archbishop has to be an Iraqi citizen. He might even have to be someone who was born there, but I can't recall.Orthodox11 said:Much like the Patriarch of Constantinople has to be a citizen of the Turkish Republic.Jonathan said:However, according to the current bylaws (from the 1950's, from the Egyptian state), only an Egyptian citizen of Egyptian parents may be selected.
http://britishorthodox.org/glastonburyreview/issue-122-news-from-the-mother-church/...Nevertheless Metropolitan Pachomius has spoken strongly about the need for the bylaws to be amended by the new pope within the first year of assuming office and even of making it a requirement that nominees sign an agreement to that effect.
(the three non-Egyptian bishops: Metropolitan Seraphim of the British Orthodox Church, Bishop Athanasius of l’Eglise Copte Orthodoxe de France and Bishop Macarius of the Eritrean Orthodox Church in the diaspora, are not eligible to vote under the 1957 Bylaws which require all electors to be Egyptian citizens).
Thanks for the interesting contribution. However, this is explicitly contrary to what the Fathers had to say on the matter. And unfortunately, many Copts are willing to unequivocally accept anything taught by H.H., no matter how correct or incorrect his views were.copticyouth93 said:Interestingly enough, HH Pope Shenouda did not consecrate icons of the Institution of the Eucharist if Judas was present; HH taught that the Last Supper and the Institution of the Eucharist were two separate events, and that Judas had departed prior to the Institution of the Eucharist.