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Did Palamas believe Mary to be Mediatrix of All Grace?

Volnutt

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Iconodule said:
I thought we were talking about St. Gregory Palamas? I've never read Miravelle, sorry.
I'm just talking about the parallel samkim seems to be drawing by his use of the term "Mediatrix of All Grace."
 

Iconodule

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PeterTheAleut said:
samkim said:
Volnutt said:
Assuming samkim's interpretation of them is correct, a proposition:

St. Gregory Palamas, not being infallible, was wrong. St. Dyonisios, not being infallible, was also wrong.

I thought Orthodoxy was into consensus patrum
In gneral, yes. But certain fathers carry more weightthan others. Also, there is a general idea that individual fathers for the most part don't contradict each other.
But are the Fathers infallible--that is to say, incapable of ever teaching error?
Isn't it clear that samkim does not believe this?

Only certain OC.net posters are infallible.
 

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samkim said:
Ortho_cat said:
GreekOrthodoxDude said:
samkim said:
"Between God and the spiritual creation there is the Mother of God. She takes of the Energy and distributes the Energy to the Chief Commander of the Seraphim. This is passed to the first member of the Cherubim, and so on. The Light goes from step to step through the Heavenly Hierarchies and reaches afterwards the visible universe." Fr. George Calciu, quoted by Hieromonk Damascene in Christ the Eternal Tao
The Orthodox faith is the faith of my fathers, as far back as my ancestry can be traced. I will go even further than the impertinent catechumen and say that this cradle-born has trouble believing that what is quoted above was ever received from the Apostles.
lol...seriously, whatever happened to the mediator between God and man?
There is only one mediator, in the sense that only one has united human nature to divine nature, "mediating" between the two. But there are many lesser mediators. Mediation and intercession mean the same thing. The greatest of these "lesser" mediators is the Theotokos. Please see the Palamas homily. The Orthodox Church is indeed the faith of our FATHERS.
Jesus' role of mediation is not simply a passive one. I was just surprisingly shocked that he wasn't even mentioned in the above "hierarchy" of mediation.
 

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St Maximos the Confessor defended the Areopagitic writings. I find it a bit bizarre that I need to defend this position which was taught until modern times. The hagiographies of the church are surely sufficiently part of the tradition of the church...

PeterTheAleut said:
samkim said:
PeterTheAleut said:
samkim said:
NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
It's ultimately based on the angelology of St. Dionysios in the Divine Hierarchy. Now our tradition understands him to truly be St. Dionysios, and not "pseudo."
A Dionysios, yes. Dionysios the Areopagite? No.
According to Orthodox traditionalists, yes. According to the tradition in general as manifested in the hagiographic and liturgical books of the Church which name him as the author of the Dionysian corpus, yes. According modern scholarship, no.

The Prologue of Ochrid, the OCA and the Greek hagiographies call the Holy Hieromartyr Dionysios the Areopagite the author. Lex orandi, Lex credendi.
And these same hagiographies have some of our saints not nursing from their mothers' breasts on Wednesdays and Fridays, but are we really to believe that? Hagiographies are generally known for emphasizing some level of hyperbole over factual accuracy--in fact, I don't even think our hagiographers even cared all that much for factual accuracy--so I wouldn't give them a whole lot of credence as actual historical documents.
Maybe, but it's not for me to judge. The proposition I was defending was merely that the tradition of the Church ascribes to the Areopagite the authorship of the Dionysian corpus.
Really? You have evidence from sources other than the often hyperbolic hagiographies you've already named?
 

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It starts with him :)

Ortho_cat said:
samkim said:
Ortho_cat said:
GreekOrthodoxDude said:
samkim said:
"Between God and the spiritual creation there is the Mother of God. She takes of the Energy and distributes the Energy to the Chief Commander of the Seraphim. This is passed to the first member of the Cherubim, and so on. The Light goes from step to step through the Heavenly Hierarchies and reaches afterwards the visible universe." Fr. George Calciu, quoted by Hieromonk Damascene in Christ the Eternal Tao
The Orthodox faith is the faith of my fathers, as far back as my ancestry can be traced. I will go even further than the impertinent catechumen and say that this cradle-born has trouble believing that what is quoted above was ever received from the Apostles.
lol...seriously, whatever happened to the mediator between God and man?
There is only one mediator, in the sense that only one has united human nature to divine nature, "mediating" between the two. But there are many lesser mediators. Mediation and intercession mean the same thing. The greatest of these "lesser" mediators is the Theotokos. Please see the Palamas homily. The Orthodox Church is indeed the faith of our FATHERS.
Jesus' role of mediation is not simply a passive one. I was just surprisingly shocked that he wasn't even mentioned in the above "hierarchy" of mediation.
 

samkim

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Maybe try to sound a little nicer and less militant...

PeterTheAleut said:
samkim said:
Volnutt said:
Assuming samkim's interpretation of them is correct, a proposition:

St. Gregory Palamas, not being infallible, was wrong. St. Dyonisios, not being infallible, was also wrong.

I thought Orthodoxy was into consensus patrum
In gneral, yes. But certain fathers carry more weightthan others. Also, there is a general idea that individual fathers for the most part don't contradict each other.
But are the Fathers infallible--that is to say, incapable of ever teaching error?
 

samkim

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I don't think the Orthodox teaching is equivalent. But the Theotokos does have he title of Mediatrix in our hymns. Again, lex orandi lex credendi. And St Gregory does seem to be teaching a divine hierarchy.

Volnutt said:
Iconodule said:
I thought we were talking about St. Gregory Palamas? I've never read Miravelle, sorry.
I'm just talking about the parallel samkim seems to be drawing by his use of the term "Mediatrix of All Grace."
 

PeterTheAleut

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I've never denied that the hagiographies of the Church are part of the Tradition of the Church. My position is that the Tradition of the Church hasn't always concerned itself with strict historical accuracy.

samkim said:
St Maximos the Confessor defended the Areopagitic writings. I find it a bit bizarre that I need to defend this position which was taught until modern times. The hagiographies of the church are surely sufficiently part of the tradition of the church...

PeterTheAleut said:
samkim said:
PeterTheAleut said:
samkim said:
NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
It's ultimately based on the angelology of St. Dionysios in the Divine Hierarchy. Now our tradition understands him to truly be St. Dionysios, and not "pseudo."
A Dionysios, yes. Dionysios the Areopagite? No.
According to Orthodox traditionalists, yes. According to the tradition in general as manifested in the hagiographic and liturgical books of the Church which name him as the author of the Dionysian corpus, yes. According modern scholarship, no.

The Prologue of Ochrid, the OCA and the Greek hagiographies call the Holy Hieromartyr Dionysios the Areopagite the author. Lex orandi, Lex credendi.
And these same hagiographies have some of our saints not nursing from their mothers' breasts on Wednesdays and Fridays, but are we really to believe that? Hagiographies are generally known for emphasizing some level of hyperbole over factual accuracy--in fact, I don't even think our hagiographers even cared all that much for factual accuracy--so I wouldn't give them a whole lot of credence as actual historical documents.
Maybe, but it's not for me to judge. The proposition I was defending was merely that the tradition of the Church ascribes to the Areopagite the authorship of the Dionysian corpus.
Really? You have evidence from sources other than the often hyperbolic hagiographies you've already named?
 

PeterTheAleut

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You could also try to not read me as sounding so "not nice" and militant. ;)

samkim said:
Maybe try to sound a little nicer and less militant...

PeterTheAleut said:
samkim said:
Volnutt said:
Assuming samkim's interpretation of them is correct, a proposition:

St. Gregory Palamas, not being infallible, was wrong. St. Dyonisios, not being infallible, was also wrong.

I thought Orthodoxy was into consensus patrum
In gneral, yes. But certain fathers carry more weightthan others. Also, there is a general idea that individual fathers for the most part don't contradict each other.
But are the Fathers infallible--that is to say, incapable of ever teaching error?
 

NicholasMyra

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samkim said:
I don't think the Orthodox teaching is equivalent. But the Theotokos does have he title of Mediatrix in our hymns.
Only in weird American Antiochian [possibly Eastern Catholic convert] translations. You don't translate from Russian/Greek/Arabic into English and get a Latin word; we don't say in saecula saeculorum during the Divine Liturgy, after all. It should be mediator or mediatress, and does not imply the Roman Catholic doctrinal beliefs ascribed to Mary as Mediatrix.

 

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NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
I don't think the Orthodox teaching is equivalent. But the Theotokos does have he title of Mediatrix in our hymns.
Only in weird American Antiochian [possibly Eastern Catholic convert] translations. You don't translate from Russian/Greek/Arabic into English and get a Latin word; we don't say in saecula saeculorum during the Divine Liturgy, after all. It should be mediator or mediatress, and does not imply the Roman Catholic doctrinal beliefs ascribed to Mary as Mediatrix.
1) First of all, I already said I don't think the teachings are the same.
2) Second of all, Mediatrix and Mediatress are the same word. Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language. The title of Mediatrix is distinct from the idea of Co-Redemptrix.
3) Third of all, saecula saeculorum is simply the Latin equivalent of  αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. I don't understand what point you are attempting to make. We have lots of words in English that are borrowed directly from Latin. We call the Third Person the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Pnevma.

Would you like it if I called you a "weird Antiochian convert?" Actually, you're still a catechumen.
 

FormerReformer

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samkim said:
NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
I don't think the Orthodox teaching is equivalent. But the Theotokos does have he title of Mediatrix in our hymns.
Only in weird American Antiochian [possibly Eastern Catholic convert] translations. You don't translate from Russian/Greek/Arabic into English and get a Latin word; we don't say in saecula saeculorum during the Divine Liturgy, after all. It should be mediator or mediatress, and does not imply the Roman Catholic doctrinal beliefs ascribed to Mary as Mediatrix.
1) First of all, I already said I don't think the teachings are the same.
2) Second of all, Mediatrix and Mediatress are the same word. Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language. The title of Mediatrix is distinct from the idea of Co-Redemptrix.
3) Third of all, saecula saeculorum is simply the Latin equivalent of  αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. I don't understand what point you are attempting to make. We have lots of words in English that are borrowed directly from Latin. We call the Third Person the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Pnevma.
I think the "saecula saeculorum" remark is meant something along the lines that we don't translate "world without end" but instead "ages of ages"
 

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FormerReformer said:
samkim said:
NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
I don't think the Orthodox teaching is equivalent. But the Theotokos does have he title of Mediatrix in our hymns.
Only in weird American Antiochian [possibly Eastern Catholic convert] translations. You don't translate from Russian/Greek/Arabic into English and get a Latin word; we don't say in saecula saeculorum during the Divine Liturgy, after all. It should be mediator or mediatress, and does not imply the Roman Catholic doctrinal beliefs ascribed to Mary as Mediatrix.
1) First of all, I already said I don't think the teachings are the same.
2) Second of all, Mediatrix and Mediatress are the same word. Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language. The title of Mediatrix is distinct from the idea of Co-Redemptrix.
3) Third of all, saecula saeculorum is simply the Latin equivalent of  αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. I don't understand what point you are attempting to make. We have lots of words in English that are borrowed directly from Latin. We call the Third Person the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Pnevma.
I think the "saecula saeculorum" remark is meant something along the lines that we don't translate "world without end" but instead "ages of ages"
Which is itself an incorrect translation of saecula saeculorum. Saecula means age. -orum is a plural genitive ending. So literally, saecula saeculorum means "to the ages of ages," which is what we say.
 

FormerReformer

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samkim said:
FormerReformer said:
samkim said:
NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
I don't think the Orthodox teaching is equivalent. But the Theotokos does have he title of Mediatrix in our hymns.
Only in weird American Antiochian [possibly Eastern Catholic convert] translations. You don't translate from Russian/Greek/Arabic into English and get a Latin word; we don't say in saecula saeculorum during the Divine Liturgy, after all. It should be mediator or mediatress, and does not imply the Roman Catholic doctrinal beliefs ascribed to Mary as Mediatrix.
1) First of all, I already said I don't think the teachings are the same.
2) Second of all, Mediatrix and Mediatress are the same word. Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language. The title of Mediatrix is distinct from the idea of Co-Redemptrix.
3) Third of all, saecula saeculorum is simply the Latin equivalent of  αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. I don't understand what point you are attempting to make. We have lots of words in English that are borrowed directly from Latin. We call the Third Person the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Pnevma.
I think the "saecula saeculorum" remark is meant something along the lines that we don't translate "world without end" but instead "ages of ages"
Which is itself an incorrect translation of saecula saeculorum. Saecula means age. -orum is a genitive ending. So literally, saecula saeculorum means "to the ages of ages," which is what we say.
Hey, don't look at me, I'm not the one that translated the Roman Mass!  :D
 

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samkim said:
Would you like it if I called you a "weird Antiochian convert?" Actually, you're still a catechumen.
I was referring to St. Alexis Toth-era converts from the unia, before you or I were born. I also called the translation weird and not the people.

samkim said:
Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language.
Mediatrix is a latin word that has one common meaning in English: The RC beliefs about Mary as Mediatrix.

My point was that, as we say "sacrament" and not "sacramentum", "mystery" instead of "mysterion", we ought to say mediator or mediatress in English. There is no justifiable reason to use Mediatrix in a translation from Greek, Arabic or Russian, where it does not appear, into English unless you are implying the Roman Catholic belief.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
Would you like it if I called you a "weird Antiochian convert?" Actually, you're still a catechumen.
I was referring to St. Alexis Toth-era converts from the unia, before you or I were born. I also called the translation weird and not the people.

samkim said:
Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language.
Mediatrix is a latin word that has one common meaning in English: The RC beliefs about Mary as Mediatrix.

My point was that, as we say "sacrament" and not "sacramentum", "mystery" instead of "mysterion", we ought to say mediator or mediatress in English. There is no justifiable reason to use Mediatrix in a translation from Greek, Arabic or Russian, where it does not appear, into English unless you are implying the Roman Catholic belief.
Mediatrix has one meaning in the English language: a female mediator. That is what you find in a dictionary.

I suppose you think we shouldn't call the Theotokos Immaculate either, lest we run the risk of sounding Catholic? Either way, I don't think it matters if we sound like Catholics or not. I have no inferiority complexes about my Orthodoxy.
 

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samkim said:
NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
Would you like it if I called you a "weird Antiochian convert?" Actually, you're still a catechumen.
I was referring to St. Alexis Toth-era converts from the unia, before you or I were born. I also called the translation weird and not the people.

samkim said:
Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language.
Mediatrix is a latin word that has one common meaning in English: The RC beliefs about Mary as Mediatrix.

My point was that, as we say "sacrament" and not "sacramentum", "mystery" instead of "mysterion", we ought to say mediator or mediatress in English. There is no justifiable reason to use Mediatrix in a translation from Greek, Arabic or Russian, where it does not appear, into English unless you are implying the Roman Catholic belief.
Mediatrix has one meaning in the English language: a female mediator. That is what you find in a dictionary.

I suppose you think we shouldn't call the Theotokos Immaculate either, lest we run the risk of sounding Catholic? Either way, I don't think it matters if we sound like Catholics or not. I have no inferiority complexes about my Orthodoxy.
I wasn't going to get into this because I think is it a wash.

But for you to say that mediatrix only has one meaning in the English language is outlandish. Without any sophistication, you would be hard pressed to find a word with a "single" definition.

You might not even find mediatrix in your crummy dictionary or even a decent single volume one. If you have a multi-volume English dictionary it will probably mention the various meanings it has in RC. Heck, my spell check doesn't recognize it.

And have you have ever heard or used it outside the context of which is being discussed?

I know people who work in mediation. Never. Not once. Have I heard a woman referred to as a mediatrix.

To my ears, I hear female mediator having had some Latin. But its use in the English language I would bet you 100-1, I am serious, if we take a look at the descriptive lexical database Oxford uses to more precisely define English words and their frequency of use, mediatrix would come back being used within documents and discussions about RC than anything else.

I am serious about those odds.

Unlike many, I put my money where my mouth is.

And the finest single volume American English dictionary doesn't even contain it as an entry as yet.

And there is always google. Please count the first 1000 results you get when googling it. Remove any uses of it as a brand or the like. Almost all the rest are going to be used with in a RC context.

Mediatrix is bound up with two RC theological notions which may or not maybe Orthodox.

In the OCA, we use mediator. I would opt for mediatrix over the horror mediatress. But mediator is just fine.

We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.

Theotokos and Mother of God, our mediator, pray for us!
 

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You're conflating denotation and connotation, samkim.
 

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orthonorm said:
We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.
I don't think that 'Mother of God' would be an ugly locution.
 

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samkim said:
I suppose you think we shouldn't call the Theotokos Immaculate either, lest we run the risk of sounding Catholic?
When referring to her conception, absolutely not. We don't believe in the dogma which has been given the proper name Immaculate Conception, so best to avoid confusion on that one.

Although nearly every non-seminarian RC I've known tends to think the IC refers to Jesus' conception.

 

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William said:
orthonorm said:
We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.
I don't think that 'Mother of God' would be an ugly locution.
"Mother of God" is Mater Theou in Greek, that's what the letters on icons of her stand for. Theotokos would be "bearer/birth-giver/the one who gave birth to God."
 

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William said:
orthonorm said:
We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.
I don't think that 'Mother of God' would be an ugly locution.
Watch how smart I am:

orthonorm said:
Theotokos and Mother of God, our mediator, pray for us!
Theotokos and Mother of God are two different things. She is both.
 

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Volnutt said:
William said:
orthonorm said:
We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.
I don't think that 'Mother of God' would be an ugly locution.
"Mother of God" is Mater Theou in Greek, that's what the letters on icons of her stand for. Theotokos would be "bearer/birth-giver/the one who gave birth to God."
Knock it off, I set up the point in my post for someone to make this argument so I could quote myself and elaborate later and seem clever.

Please send your posts to me for review in the future, Crystal, before posting them to the board.
 

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Volnutt said:
William said:
orthonorm said:
We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.
I don't think that 'Mother of God' would be an ugly locution.
"Mother of God" is Mater Theou in Greek, that's what the letters on icons of her stand for. Theotokos would be "bearer/birth-giver/the one who gave birth to God."
What is the difference between the one who gave birth to God and God's mother?
 

orthonorm

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William said:
Volnutt said:
William said:
orthonorm said:
We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.
I don't think that 'Mother of God' would be an ugly locution.
"Mother of God" is Mater Theou in Greek, that's what the letters on icons of her stand for. Theotokos would be "bearer/birth-giver/the one who gave birth to God."
What is the difference between the one who gave birth to God and God's mother?
William actually, I think there is a lovely difference. This is once place where theology is truly beautiful.

You can't imagine the difference?
 

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orthonorm said:
Volnutt said:
William said:
orthonorm said:
We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.
I don't think that 'Mother of God' would be an ugly locution.
"Mother of God" is Mater Theou in Greek, that's what the letters on icons of her stand for. Theotokos would be "bearer/birth-giver/the one who gave birth to God."
Knock it off, I set up the point in my post for someone to make this argument so I could quote myself and elaborate later and seem clever.

Please send your posts to me for review in the future, Crystal, before posting them to the board.
You never let me have anything nice!  :'(
 

orthonorm

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William said:
orthonorm said:
You can't imagine the difference?
That's why I asked. :)
I have to do a few things, so I can't amplify as I would like. But I will leave you with a comment of mine in a thread that is currently locked, so I can't give you the quote with an embedded URL:

FWIW, I've always understood "Theotokos" as glossed as "God-Bearer" or the like. "Mother of God" and "God-Bearer" are not necessarily the same thing. The latter seems to definitively uphold the Incarnation, while the former might elliptically do so, I believe it speaks more clearly to the personal relationship between the person of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary. Again both are not completely exclusive in their meaning, but I do believe each underscores a particular relationship the person of Mary had with her son and thus God.

Joseph after all was Jesus' father and had a fatherly personal relationship to him, although he did not beget him.

In the end, we are better off with both IMVHO. And Theotokos sounds better to these English ears than "God-Bearer". And "Birth-Giver" (which sounds equally as bad as "God-Bearer") is not quite like "God-Bearer". Mary bore God; she did not just give birth to Him. The English word "bear" here is quite felicitous due to its many shades of meanings which nuance Mary's role from the Conception till the end of the age.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bear
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27405.msg519865.html#msg519865

I have a lot more to say on the issue. Perhaps I will here or in one of the five books I am writing currently.

EDIT: Look through that entire thread. After all the name is sorta the issue you are asking about.

 

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Good points!
 
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I still use proprietrix, benefactrix and executrix in my documents and am castigated by my supervisors for so doing.

Long live wanky Latin suffixes!

On topic: still not buying that all this Mary passing out grace to the angelic orders like eggs in a basket stuff was received from the Apostles. I'm sorry for being flippant, but it all just strikes me as somehow unreal and foreign.
 

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orthonorm said:
Although nearly every non-seminarian RC I've known tends to think the IC refers to Jesus' conception.
Interesting, because I don't know a single Catholic seminarian who is that uneducated in his faith, and quite a few of my friends and acquaintances have gone off to seminary.
 

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orthonorm said:
samkim said:
NicholasMyra said:
samkim said:
Would you like it if I called you a "weird Antiochian convert?" Actually, you're still a catechumen.
I was referring to St. Alexis Toth-era converts from the unia, before you or I were born. I also called the translation weird and not the people.

samkim said:
Mediatrix is a female mediator. You could use either word in the English language.
Mediatrix is a latin word that has one common meaning in English: The RC beliefs about Mary as Mediatrix.

My point was that, as we say "sacrament" and not "sacramentum", "mystery" instead of "mysterion", we ought to say mediator or mediatress in English. There is no justifiable reason to use Mediatrix in a translation from Greek, Arabic or Russian, where it does not appear, into English unless you are implying the Roman Catholic belief.
Mediatrix has one meaning in the English language: a female mediator. That is what you find in a dictionary.

I suppose you think we shouldn't call the Theotokos Immaculate either, lest we run the risk of sounding Catholic? Either way, I don't think it matters if we sound like Catholics or not. I have no inferiority complexes about my Orthodoxy.
I wasn't going to get into this because I think is it a wash.

But for you to say that mediatrix only has one meaning in the English language is outlandish. Without any sophistication, you would be hard pressed to find a word with a "single" definition.

You might not even find mediatrix in your crummy dictionary or even a decent single volume one. If you have a multi-volume English dictionary it will probably mention the various meanings it has in RC. Heck, my spell check doesn't recognize it.

And have you have ever heard or used it outside the context of which is being discussed?

I know people who work in mediation. Never. Not once. Have I heard a woman referred to as a mediatrix.

To my ears, I hear female mediator having had some Latin. But its use in the English language I would bet you 100-1, I am serious, if we take a look at the descriptive lexical database Oxford uses to more precisely define English words and their frequency of use, mediatrix would come back being used within documents and discussions about RC than anything else.

I am serious about those odds.

Unlike many, I put my money where my mouth is.

And the finest single volume American English dictionary doesn't even contain it as an entry as yet.

And there is always google. Please count the first 1000 results you get when googling it. Remove any uses of it as a brand or the like. Almost all the rest are going to be used with in a RC context.

Mediatrix is bound up with two RC theological notions which may or not maybe Orthodox.

In the OCA, we use mediator. I would opt for mediatrix over the horror mediatress. But mediator is just fine.

We use Theotokos instead of whatever ugly locution you would have to use in English. I see the sense behind it.

Theotokos and Mother of God, our mediator, pray for us!
1) I know the word Mediatrix can have different meanings in different contexts. The only reason I was so strong in my language was because I was mirroring the language of my interlocutor.

2) The dictionary definition of Mediatrix is still a female mediator.

3) Calm down. We are on the same page. The Theotokos is our Mediator/Mediatrix and our Salvation.
 

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Papist said:
orthonorm said:
Although nearly every non-seminarian RC I've known tends to think the IC refers to Jesus' conception.
Interesting, because I don't know a single Catholic seminarian who is that uneducated in his faith, and quite a few of my friends and acquaintances have gone off to seminary.
No, he's saying the only RCs he knows who know what the IC is are the seminarians.
 

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orthonorm said:
samkim said:
I suppose you think we shouldn't call the Theotokos Immaculate either, lest we run the risk of sounding Catholic?
When referring to her conception, absolutely not. We don't believe in the dogma which has been given the proper name Immaculate Conception, so best to avoid confusion on that one.
OK of course.... But at least in my jurisdiction, we have no problem with "immaculate" and "mediatrix" because we know what they mean. Maybe some don't, but we ought not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let me state my position for the nth time: I am not defending any Roman Catholic doctrines.
 

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Volnutt said:
You're conflating denotation and connotation, samkim.
No I'm not. The denotation of Mediatrix is female mediator. It may have RC connotations, which, once again, I am not defending. My interlocutor is conflating denotation and connotation.

Just FYI, I'm not saying this to be rude or out of pride or anything (that would be dumb), but so that your minds will be at ease: my undergraduate academic background is in philosophy and theology, so there is no need to instruct me on the difference between denotation and connotation. I am genuinely not saying this in a sour mood or anything.
 

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samkim said:
3) Calm down. We are on the same page. The Theotokos is our Mediator/Mediatrix and our Salvation.
Are we? I don't recall orthonorm agreeing to the notion that she is some kind of first step conduit in God's relay race of Grace. She mediates and saves with her prayers and her role in bringing Christ into the world and maybe with the occasional miracle, but that's all.
 

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Volnutt said:
samkim said:
3) Calm down. We are on the same page. The Theotokos is our Mediator/Mediatrix and our Salvation.
Are we? I don't recall orthonorm agreeing to the notion that she is some kind of first step conduit in God's relay race of Grace. She mediates and saves with her prayers and her role in bringing Christ into the world and maybe with the occasional miracle, but that's all.
I'm just curious, what position do you think I'm defending? Can you state it? This is probably my fault, my lack of clarity.

There's an extreme lack of charity on internet forums...
 

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Volnutt said:
samkim said:
3) Calm down. We are on the same page. The Theotokos is our Mediator/Mediatrix and our Salvation.
Are we? I don't recall orthonorm agreeing to the notion that she is some kind of first step conduit in God's relay race of Grace. She mediates and saves with her prayers and her role in bringing Christ into the world and maybe with the occasional miracle, but that's all.
And yes, it is BY HER PRAYERS that she saves us. But prayer is more than petitioning God. Pure prayer is illumination by the ucreated energies.
 

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samkim said:
Volnutt said:
samkim said:
3) Calm down. We are on the same page. The Theotokos is our Mediator/Mediatrix and our Salvation.
Are we? I don't recall orthonorm agreeing to the notion that she is some kind of first step conduit in God's relay race of Grace. She mediates and saves with her prayers and her role in bringing Christ into the world and maybe with the occasional miracle, but that's all.
I'm just curious, what position do you think I'm defending? Can you state it? This is probably my fault, my lack of clarity.

There's an extreme lack of charity on internet forums...
Every grace of God goes to her first since she is the supreme created being, she gives it (part of it?) to Michael the second greatest in creation, Michael to Gabriel the third, and so on down the ladder to one of us.
 

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GreekOrthodoxDude said:
On topic: still not buying that all this Mary passing out grace to the angelic orders like eggs in a basket stuff was received from the Apostles. I'm sorry for being flippant, but it all just strikes me as somehow unreal and foreign.
I understand. However, keep in mind that grace passes through every member of the Church. Salvation is corporate. No man is saved without his brother. All the baptized are interconnected. Our baptism also connects us to incorporeal realities. Grace doesn't just pass through the Theotokos, but every being in God's creation in a unique way.
 
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