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Did Palamas believe Mary to be Mediatrix of All Grace?

Volnutt

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samkim said:
Volnutt said:
samkim said:
3) Calm down. We are on the same page. The Theotokos is our Mediator/Mediatrix and our Salvation.
Are we? I don't recall orthonorm agreeing to the notion that she is some kind of first step conduit in God's relay race of Grace. She mediates and saves with her prayers and her role in bringing Christ into the world and maybe with the occasional miracle, but that's all.
And yes, it is BY HER PRAYERS that she saves us. But prayer is more than petitioning God. Pure prayer is illumination by the ucreated energies.
And what exactly is the means by which we pass on the energies?
 
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samkim said:
GreekOrthodoxDude said:
On topic: still not buying that all this Mary passing out grace to the angelic orders like eggs in a basket stuff was received from the Apostles. I'm sorry for being flippant, but it all just strikes me as somehow unreal and foreign.
I understand. However, keep in mind that grace passes through every member of the Church. Salvation is corporate. No man is saved without his brother. All the baptized are interconnected. Our baptism also connects us to incorporeal realities. Grace doesn't just pass through the Theotokos, but every being in God's creation in a unique way.
Thanks, Sam.

Lots to think about. I'll keep following the discussion.
 

samkim

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Volnutt said:
samkim said:
Volnutt said:
samkim said:
3) Calm down. We are on the same page. The Theotokos is our Mediator/Mediatrix and our Salvation.
Are we? I don't recall orthonorm agreeing to the notion that she is some kind of first step conduit in God's relay race of Grace. She mediates and saves with her prayers and her role in bringing Christ into the world and maybe with the occasional miracle, but that's all.
And yes, it is BY HER PRAYERS that she saves us. But prayer is more than petitioning God. Pure prayer is illumination by the ucreated energies.
And what exactly is the means by which we pass on the energies?
This is simply my interpretation, and it is a bit of an aside, but....

One of the themes explored in the Brothers Karamozov is the interconnectedness of all human beings, that we are responsible for everything and everyone. That no man is innocent when atrocities occur. Many of the Holy Fathers talk about this idea as well, that the true penitent feels responsible for every sin ever committed. Also, joy becomes universal. We rejoice with those who rejoice, as well as mourn with those who mourn. This is because we all share a common nature. We also share our "createdness" with the angels in heaven, and all creation in general. That's why when God became man, that meant salvation for all beings and all creation. Remember that Adam was supposed to unite heaven and earth within himself. He was supposed to become a God by grace, "passing on" sanctification to the rest of creation. This is possible because, once again, we share a common essence, or at least a common created reality.

The saints and angels, out of compassion for our suffering and sinning, pray for us. They "feel" for us. In the same way that monasticism "energizes" the secular world, the heavenly hosts "energize" us by their prayers.

The Theotokos, in perfect imitation of her son, emptied herself in voluntary kenosis, so that the only thing that remained in her was love for God and compassion for the world. She has become, as our prayers say, the Mother of the Christian race, the one who hears the cries of the world. All our prayers and hymns laud her as the greatest of the Saints, so, if we were to crudely draw up some sort of spectrum, she is the closest created being to God, "More honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim." If she is the most holy saint, she is the most like her son. She is the first to "feel" compassion for those in the world. And like a great wave that starts at a single point, the "feeling" sweeps through the heavenly host, because all share a common created nature.

We receive no grace without the Theotokos, because we receive no grace without any of the saints and angels, or the whole of the Church, or creation in general. It passes through all of us. But our Lady is the still the closest to God.

I mean, this is my very non-theological somewhat romanticized explanation. Maybe it's wrong. But its an approximation of what I think the Divine Hierarchy is all about.
 

Seth84

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I loved your explanation Samkim.  It is difficult to convey in words that which is beyond our comprehension.  Thank you.
 

samkim

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And let me just say this: a lot of militant Orthodox are very willing and ready to criticize caricatures of Roman Catholic doctrine. To be sure, our faiths are different, and the Catholics have done their fair share of evil things to us.

But all Catholics I know love God and love the Theotokos. God will deal with them as he pleases.

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." St. Theophan the Recluse

"People feel in their souls when they are doing the proper thing, believing in Jesus Christ, revering the Mother of God and the Saints, whom they call upon in prayer, so if you condemn their faith they will not listen to you…. But if you were to confirm that they were doing well to believe in God and honor the Mother of God and the Saints; that they are right to go to church, and say their prayers at home, read the Divine word, and so on; and then gently point out their mistakes and show them what they ought to amend, then they would listen to you, and the Lord would rejoice over them. And this way by God’s mercy we shall all find salvation…. God is love, and therefore the preaching of His word must always proceed from love. Then both preacher and listener will profit. But if you do nothing but condemn, the soul of the people will not heed you, and no good will come of it." St. Silouan

 

samkim

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I think another story from St. Silouan illustrates how mediation works:

In the beginning I prayed with tears of compassion for Nicholas, for his young wife, for the little child, but as I was praying the sense of the divine presence began to grow on me and at a certain moment it grew so powerful that I lost sight of Nicholas, his wife, his child, his needs, their village, and I could be aware only of God, and I was drawn by the sense of the divine presence deeper and deeper, until of a sudden, at the heart of this presence, I met the divine love holding Nicholas, his wife, and his child, and now it was with the love of God that I began to pray for them again, but again I was drawn into the deep and in the depths of this I again found divine love. And so,' he said, 'I spend my days, praying for each of them in turn...'
I imagine this is what the Theotokos does in heaven.
 

podkarpatska

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GreekOrthodoxDude said:
I still use proprietrix, benefactrix and executrix in my documents and am castigated by my supervisors for so doing.

Long live wanky Latin suffixes!

On topic: still not buying that all this Mary passing out grace to the angelic orders like eggs in a basket stuff was received from the Apostles. I'm sorry for being flippant, but it all just strikes me as somehow unreal and foreign.
In American legal usage the words 'executor' and 'executrix' are still in use, although the other two appear to have passed the way of the dodo, in my experience!  ;)  (You will occasionally come across 'testator' and 'testatrix', but that is about it....)
 

Ortho_cat

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GreekOrthodoxDude said:
I still use proprietrix, benefactrix and executrix in my documents and am castigated by my supervisors for so doing.

Long live wanky Latin suffixes!

On topic: still not buying that all this Mary passing out grace to the angelic orders like eggs in a basket stuff was received from the Apostles. I'm sorry for being flippant, but it all just strikes me as somehow unreal and foreign.
ya...patristic consensus is a good thing!
 
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