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Diego's All-Time Lutheran Rumble Thread

Diego

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Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?
I am not Eastern Orthodoxx or Roman Catholic. I am Lutheran. I do use the Rosary.

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel,
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.

From the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
Luther did, and I do, use the rest of the Rosary prayers without alteration. The Rosary is a beautiful, but Western tradition. I don't suppose many Orthodox, who have their own prayer beads that I know nothing about, would use the Rosary. My question is, is there anything in the Rosary that any Orthodox Church would oppose? I would think not, but I am asking because I don't know for sure.
 

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Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.
How did Luther “pray the Rosary every day of his life until he died” without contradicting the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession?  What is “prayer”?  What is “invocation”?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.
How did Luther “pray the Rosary every day of his life until he died” without contradicting the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession?  What is “prayer”?  What is “invocation”?
I just explained that. He dropped the part of the "Hail Mary" prayer that petitions her intercession. The part that says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" was dropped, because we do not ask for the intercession of Saints. But using the first part, "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" is straight Scripture. Praising a Saint is fine. The Augsburg Confession does not reject that. It does reject asking for intercession. That is how he did it.
 

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Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.
How did Luther “pray the Rosary every day of his life until he died” without contradicting the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession?  What is “prayer”?  What is “invocation”?
I just explained that. He dropped the part of the "Hail Mary" prayer that petitions her intercession. The part that says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" was dropped, because we do not ask for the intercession of Saints. But using the first part, "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" is straight Scripture. Praising a Saint is fine. The Augsburg Confession does not reject that. It does reject asking for intercession. That is how he did it.
Oh, I see.  That was stupid of him.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.
How did Luther “pray the Rosary every day of his life until he died” without contradicting the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession?  What is “prayer”?  What is “invocation”?
I just explained that. He dropped the part of the "Hail Mary" prayer that petitions her intercession. The part that says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" was dropped, because we do not ask for the intercession of Saints. But using the first part, "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" is straight Scripture. Praising a Saint is fine. The Augsburg Confession does not reject that. It does reject asking for intercession. That is how he did it.
Oh, I see.  That was stupid of him.
Sounds like a personal opinion, backed up by nothing. I can accept that. But I am not asking for your opinion, for which I care little. I am commenting on XAVIER'S subject matter.
 

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Diego said:
Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?
I am not Eastern Orthodoxx or Roman Catholic. I am Lutheran. I do use the Rosary.

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel,
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.

From the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
Luther did, and I do, use the rest of the Rosary prayers without alteration. The Rosary is a beautiful, but Western tradition. I don't suppose many Orthodox, who have their own prayer beads that I know nothing about, would use the Rosary. My question is, is there anything in the Rosary that any Orthodox Church would oppose? I would think not, but I am asking because I don't know for sure.
Many Orthodox have a thing about not invoking the visual imagination in prayer, although Iconodule wrote an article on that subject, or was going to, debunking it.

As far as the prayer ropes and Lestovkas we use are concerned, their principle use is praying the Jesus Prayer.  The Anglicans took this up and the “Anglican Rosary” is based around the Jesus Prayer.

Meanwhile, here is a “contemporary” “Mother Goddess Rosary” offered by a Lutheran church: http://www.herchurch.org/goddess-rosary/
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.
How did Luther “pray the Rosary every day of his life until he died” without contradicting the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession?  What is “prayer”?  What is “invocation”?
I just explained that. He dropped the part of the "Hail Mary" prayer that petitions her intercession. The part that says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" was dropped, because we do not ask for the intercession of Saints. But using the first part, "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" is straight Scripture. Praising a Saint is fine. The Augsburg Confession does not reject that. It does reject asking for intercession. That is how he did it.
Oh, I see.  That was stupid of him.
+1
 

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Alpha60 said:
Diego said:
Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?
I am not Eastern Orthodoxx or Roman Catholic. I am Lutheran. I do use the Rosary.

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel,
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.

From the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
Luther did, and I do, use the rest of the Rosary prayers without alteration. The Rosary is a beautiful, but Western tradition. I don't suppose many Orthodox, who have their own prayer beads that I know nothing about, would use the Rosary. My question is, is there anything in the Rosary that any Orthodox Church would oppose? I would think not, but I am asking because I don't know for sure.
Many Orthodox have a thing about not invoking the visual imagination in prayer, although Iconodule wrote an article on that subject, or was going to, debunking it.

As far as the prayer ropes and Lestovkas we use are concerned, their principle use is praying the Jesus Prayer.  The Anglicans took this up and the “Anglican Rosary” is based around the Jesus Prayer.

Meanwhile, here is a “contemporary” “Mother Goddess Rosary” offered by a Lutheran church: http://www.herchurch.org/goddess-rosary/
Please note that that is an ELCA Church, that is non-Confessional.
 

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Now that I have seen their web page, I wouldn't even call them Christian, let alone Confessional Lutheran.
 

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Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.
How did Luther “pray the Rosary every day of his life until he died” without contradicting the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession?  What is “prayer”?  What is “invocation”?
I just explained that. He dropped the part of the "Hail Mary" prayer that petitions her intercession. The part that says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" was dropped, because we do not ask for the intercession of Saints. But using the first part, "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" is straight Scripture. Praising a Saint is fine. The Augsburg Confession does not reject that. It does reject asking for intercession. That is how he did it.
I've heard of the Lutherans before. (As in Lutheran Church)
 

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WPM said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died). "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" This comes straight from Luke, and should be used. Although we acknowledge that Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God), Luther did NOT pray the rest of the prayer, because in the Augsburg Confession, prayers and invocations to the Saints are rejected.
How did Luther “pray the Rosary every day of his life until he died” without contradicting the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession?  What is “prayer”?  What is “invocation”?
I just explained that. He dropped the part of the "Hail Mary" prayer that petitions her intercession. The part that says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" was dropped, because we do not ask for the intercession of Saints. But using the first part, "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ!" is straight Scripture. Praising a Saint is fine. The Augsburg Confession does not reject that. It does reject asking for intercession. That is how he did it.
I've heard of the Lutherans before. (As in Lutheran Church)
Welcome. Which Lutheran Church are you?
 

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Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
 

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Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
 

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Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
Because Rome initially didn't accept Hebrews as canonical, whereas the East didn't initially accept Revelation as canonical.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.
 

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Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.
You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Eamonomae said:
Papist said:
Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
The East has its own traditions.
Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.
Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.
You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.
 

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Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Eamonomae said:
Papist said:
Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
The East has its own traditions.
Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.
Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.
You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.
LOL, you sound familiar...
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Eamonomae said:
Papist said:
Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
The East has its own traditions.
Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.
Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.
You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.
LOL, you sound familiar...
If I sound familiar, I suspect it is because others have also considered suing you for libel as well.
 

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Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Eamonomae said:
Papist said:
Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
The East has its own traditions.
Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.
Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.
You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.
LOL, you sound familiar...
If I sound familiar, I suspect it is because others have also considered suing you for libel as well.
Yeah, and theirs was as stupid a reason as yours.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Eamonomae said:
Papist said:
Xavier said:
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?
The East has its own traditions.
Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.
Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.
And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.
You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.
LOL, you sound familiar...
If I sound familiar, I suspect it is because others have also considered suing you for libel as well.
Yeah, and theirs was as stupid a reason as yours.
Well, objectively, you HAVE committed libel. It is not considered stupid to think about suing someone for libel when they have committed the offense. If you weren't such a waste of the air you breathe, I would actively take you to court. But you are not worth it. I have far better things to do with my time.
 

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An old nugget dredged from the trivia box. I listened to a lecture by Dr. James Voelz, from Concordia, mentioning a Lutheran pastor who did not accept Revelation as scripture. As I recall, Dr. Voelz said the LCMS didn’t require pastors to accept any particular books as being part of the canon.
 

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Brilko said:
An old nugget dredged from the trivia box. I listened to a lecture by Dr. James Voelz, from Concordia, mentioning a Lutheran pastor who did not accept Revelation as scripture. As I recall, Dr. Voelz said the LCMS didn’t require pastors to accept any particular books as being part of the canon.
That is incorrect as far as I know. The LCMS requires its Pastors, and its members, to accept 66 books of the Scripture as valid. I would recommend visiting lcms.org for information on that. My Pastor certainly expected me to accept the entire 66 book canon when I was confirmed. He led me to believe the Church required it as well. And Luther's Catechisms assume an acceptance of the entire text.

Dr. AL Barry, President of LCMS, wrote a series of brief documents on what the Church believes. One of these was on the Bible, in which the Bible was defined as having 66 books. These documents can be downloaded from lcms.org
 

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It should also be noted that all Pastors are expected upon ordination to accept the Book of Concord as a Faithful explanation of Scripture, and the Confession of the Church. The Book of Concord itself was composed in 1580, when the Three Solae, one of which is Scripture only, were included. By the time the Book of Concord was composed, Lutherans were on record as accepting 66 books in the canon, one of them being Revelation.
 

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For some reason, when I clicked on "reply", it started a new subject. I think praying the Rosary, if properly done w/ Orthodox prayers added, or in my case, w/ elements deleted, I think the prayers can appropiately be made a part of one's own tradition.
 

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When Diego makes a digression into Lutheranism from a topic unrelated to Lutheranism, I will split it and combine it here.

--Agabus


I know the Western development of the Rosary. I am a bit unfamiliar with its Eastern background, but the idea that it is of Eastern provenance would not shock me. The East always has been more mystical than the more practical West. Sometimes I wish the West had more of that element than it does. Granted, you do have Certain Saints (St. Therese of Avila, St. John of the Cross, etc), who were EXTREMELY mystical, but they were individuals. The Western Church as a whole is another matter.

 

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Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died).
Do you have any evidence that Luther prayed the rosary "every day of his life until he died"?
 

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Iconodule said:
Diego said:
This is the part of the Hail Mary that I use, and the same part Martin Luther used (he prayed the Rosary every day of his life until he died).
Do you have any evidence that Luther prayed the rosary "every day of his life until he died"?
I read it very recently in a Lutheran text. I forget which one. In his Works, which are voluminous, so don't ask me to cite which exact section, he talks about how the "Hail Mary" is the Angelic Salutation and should be used minus the part added by the Roman Church. I believe it is in his Prayer Book of 1522 (which was written for his personal use).
 

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Yeah, in that same prayerbook he specifically comes out against the rosary: “No one blasphemes this Mother and her fruit so much as those who bless her with many rosaries and who have the Hail Mary always in the mouth, for these are the very persons who blaspheme the Word of God and the faith to the greatest degree!”

Also that prayer book was not his personal book- he published it as a general instruction. You seem quite ignorant of the tradition you so loudly espouse.
 

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That is not a condemnation of the Rosary, although I fully realise that you are not capable of understanding. That is a condemnation of those who use the Rosary and yet blaspheme the Word of God. Two different things, although I would not expect you to understand. As for him publishing that text for public instruction, I was not aware of that. It was still his personal book. The fact that it may have been published (one learns something new every day) doesn't change that. Again, I wouldn't expect you to get it.
 

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It’s okay, you can admit you don’t understand Lutheranism. There’s no judgment here.
 

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ICONODULE, if that is true (and its not), then I understand Lutheranism far better than you understand Christianity, which is not at all. But, I DO understand Lutheranism, and you do NOT understand Christianity, so it's all good, as the incredibly poor English-speakers in America like to say.
 

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You might want to spend more time reading basic Lutheran literature instead of making a fool of yourself on a public forum. Here’s a start: http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php
 

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I have read the Augsburg Confession, probably more times than you have, but I WILL report you to the Moderators for your insult. That is allowed in Private Fora, but not here.
 

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If we were on the private forum I’d be digging through the treasury of Luther’s scatological insults.
 

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I can do that without having to dig. He was admittedly very good at them. Then again, they were part and parcel of Renaissance disputation. He was not unusual in using scat in his debates, he just happened to be the best at it.
 

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You should read Luther sometime. He’s interesting despite being very wrong.
 

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What is it with Germans and love of feces?
 

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hecma925 said:
What is it with Germans and love of feces?
Hey!  This German doesn't love feces.  :police:
 

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Faith
Lutheran LCMS
Jurisdiction
Nebraska District
Iconodule said:
You should read Luther sometime. He’s interesting despite being very wrong.
I have read Luther. Not everything he wrote, but some of it. I have most of Luther in digital format.
 
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