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Diego's All-Time Lutheran Rumble Thread

Alpha60

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Iconodule said:
If we were on the private forum I’d be digging through the treasury of Luther’s scatological insults.
I once found doing that, in a few different contexts, to be greatly amusing, albeit with the unpleasant flavor of unobserved irony, like the revolting metallic aroma of infected ale or old packing tape, or the taste in one’s mouth immediately after being stung by a wasp.
 

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Diego said:
Iconodule said:
You should read Luther sometime. He’s interesting despite being very wrong.
I have read Luther. Not everything he wrote, but some of it. I have most of Luther in digital format.
Reading random Luther quotes out of context isn’t the same as reading Luther. That’s how you get stupid ideas like thinking he prayed the rosary every day until he died.
 

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Iconodule said:
Diego said:
Iconodule said:
You should read Luther sometime. He’s interesting despite being very wrong.
I have read Luther. Not everything he wrote, but some of it. I have most of Luther in digital format.
Reading random Luther quotes out of context isn’t the same as reading Luther. That’s how you get stupid ideas like thinking he prayed the rosary every day until he died.
I don't read him out of context, but I wouldn't expect you to understand.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Luther was and remains a heretic.
By your definition, anybody who doesn't think exactly like you do is a heretic, but your definition is and remains irrelevant. I know some people, Eastern Orthodox among them, who would call you a heretic for not accepting four of the Ecumenical Councils. But hey, who is counting? I just know that your opinion is just that: An opinion. And opinions are like belly buttons. We've all got one, and they are all different. So, your point is? Oh. I forgot. You don't have one. But then, you never do.
 

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Further, if you are going to speak, use the English language correctly, please. Luther cannot "remain" a heretic. He is deceased, and by definition, a deceased person cannot be anything other than dead. Even assuming he WAS a heretic (and you and I can argue that point until we turn blue), it would be past tense. Putting it into a present tense verb is an inappropriate use of the English language, and merely succeeds in making you look silly.
 

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Not all are alive to God for Lutherans.
 

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hecma925 said:
Not all are alive to God for Lutherans.
Even assuming I agreed with the Orthodox view of praying to Saints, and I don't, that Saint is still DEAD, and the present tense cannot be used to refer to him regarding Earthly concepts. The idea of Luther "being" a heretic, or "remaining" one, cannot apply, since heresy is by definition an act that can only be committed this side of the grave. You might believe he "committed" (Preterite Tense) heresy, but he cannot still "commit" (Present Tense) heresy.
 

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And I DO believe that the Saints are alive in Christ, both on Earth and in Heaven. But praying to the Saints in Heaven detracts from the Greater Glory of God, which is why Luther only used the Angelic Salutation and not the Church-added part of the "Hail Mary".
 

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Is it to God's glory that the saints are in heaven?
 

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noahzarc1 said:
Is it to God's glory that the saints are in heaven?
That is beside the point. It is to God's Glory that he has raised the Saints to Heaven, but it was HE who did it. They had no part of that other than living holy lives, as we all try to do. Praying to any Saint (say, St. Anthony) takes away from God's Glory just like praying to my Grandmother would (and I believe she is in Heaven; she was a very pious Church of the Nazarene [shudder], who lived a very holy and difficult life).
 

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Diego said:
Further, if you are going to speak, use the English language correctly, please. Luther cannot "remain" a heretic. He is deceased, and by definition, a deceased person cannot be anything other than dead. Even assuming he WAS a heretic (and you and I can argue that point until we turn blue), it would be past tense. Putting it into a present tense verb is an inappropriate use of the English language, and merely succeeds in making you look silly.
Luther is as dead as Abraham: IOW, alive because God is God of the living and not of the dead.  Unlike Abraham, however, Luther’s probably burning in hell.
 

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Diego said:
Further, if you are going to speak, use the English language correctly, please. Luther cannot "remain" a heretic. He is deceased, and by definition, a deceased person cannot be anything other than dead. Even assuming he WAS a heretic (and you and I can argue that point until we turn blue), it would be past tense. Putting it into a present tense verb is an inappropriate use of the English language, and merely succeeds in making you look silly.
Extra! Extra! Spaniard and Indian throw down over English grammar!
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Luther was and remains a heretic.
By your definition, anybody who doesn't think exactly like you do is a heretic
Wrong.
Whatever. You still have no point. And I may in fact be wrong on this. But from the content of your posts, any rational person would be led to believe precisely what I said. I have no intention of insulting you. But by any definition, you are exceedingly narrow-minded, far more so than any other person I have met in this forum. Although I have often been quite nasty to you, a matter that has actually led me to the Confessional on one occasion, I have NEVER started it with you. I have only been nasty to you when you have provoked me with an equal or greater level of nastiness. I shall not apologise for considering you an extremely distasteful and unpleasant individual. Again, these are NOT insults, for which I could rightly be punished on OCNet. These are simple observations that are being made after seeing how you have treated me and others with whom you disagree. You are certainly free to disagree with me and anyone else. But it is immoral of you in the extreme to be rude and disrespectful, and I personally think you need to go to Confession regarding the subject, just as I have. But that is my opinion only, and I am not (nor do I wish to be) in charge of your soul. As I have said before: Opinions are like belly buttons. We've all got one, and they are all different.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Further, if you are going to speak, use the English language correctly, please. Luther cannot "remain" a heretic. He is deceased, and by definition, a deceased person cannot be anything other than dead. Even assuming he WAS a heretic (and you and I can argue that point until we turn blue), it would be past tense. Putting it into a present tense verb is an inappropriate use of the English language, and merely succeeds in making you look silly.
Luther is as dead as Abraham: IOW, alive because God is God of the living and not of the dead.  Unlike Abraham, however, Luther’s probably burning in hell.
And your opinion of Luther, and his current location in the Afterlife, is as irrelevant as every other opinion you have.
 

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Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Luther was and remains a heretic.
By your definition, anybody who doesn't think exactly like you do is a heretic
Wrong.
Whatever. You still have no point. And I may in fact be wrong on this. But from the content of your posts, any rational person would be led to believe precisely what I said. I have no intention of insulting you. But by any definition, you are exceedingly narrow-minded, far more so than any other person I have met in this forum. Although I have often been quite nasty to you, a matter that has actually led me to the Confessional on one occasion, I have NEVER started it with you. I have only been nasty to you when you have provoked me with an equal or greater level of nastiness. I shall not apologise for considering you an extremely distasteful and unpleasant individual. Again, these are NOT insults, for which I could rightly be punished on OCNet. These are simple observations that are being made after seeing how you have treated me and others with whom you disagree. You are certainly free to disagree with me and anyone else. But it is immoral of you in the extreme to be rude and disrespectful, and I personally think you need to go to Confession regarding the subject, just as I have. But that is my opinion only, and I am not (nor do I wish to be) in charge of your soul. As I have said before: Opinions are like belly buttons. We've all got one, and they are all different.
Wrong.
 

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Rohzek said:
Diego said:
Further, if you are going to speak, use the English language correctly, please. Luther cannot "remain" a heretic. He is deceased, and by definition, a deceased person cannot be anything other than dead. Even assuming he WAS a heretic (and you and I can argue that point until we turn blue), it would be past tense. Putting it into a present tense verb is an inappropriate use of the English language, and merely succeeds in making you look silly.
Extra! Extra! Spaniard and Indian throw down over English grammar!
That was funny! However, I must correct you in my ethnicity. I am German, Dutch, and Greek, mostly. My real name is not "Diego", but it is the name I am known by except in the Church and in my family of birth. Even my wife and her family call me "Diego". There is a long and convoluted story behind this, but suffice it to say that I lived in the Hispanic district of town for eight months and worked and lived just as one of them. I never spoke English at the time, and went by "Diego" as it was easier for them to pronounce than my real name, which name I also have despised as long as I can remember. So when I met my wife, who is White, I introduced myself to her as "Diego". The story is even more complicated than that, but I shan't go into it here.
 

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Iconodule said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Luther was and remains a heretic.
By your definition, anybody who doesn't think exactly like you do is a heretic
Wrong.
Whatever. You still have no point. And I may in fact be wrong on this. But from the content of your posts, any rational person would be led to believe precisely what I said. I have no intention of insulting you. But by any definition, you are exceedingly narrow-minded, far more so than any other person I have met in this forum. Although I have often been quite nasty to you, a matter that has actually led me to the Confessional on one occasion, I have NEVER started it with you. I have only been nasty to you when you have provoked me with an equal or greater level of nastiness. I shall not apologise for considering you an extremely distasteful and unpleasant individual. Again, these are NOT insults, for which I could rightly be punished on OCNet. These are simple observations that are being made after seeing how you have treated me and others with whom you disagree. You are certainly free to disagree with me and anyone else. But it is immoral of you in the extreme to be rude and disrespectful, and I personally think you need to go to Confession regarding the subject, just as I have. But that is my opinion only, and I am not (nor do I wish to be) in charge of your soul. As I have said before: Opinions are like belly buttons. We've all got one, and they are all different.
Wrong.
That is also an opinion, which again, is quite subjective. And where am I wrong? Which point in my statement is wrong? Or is it ALL wrong? Please do be more precise.
 

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Diego said:
Iconodule said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Diego said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Luther was and remains a heretic.
By your definition, anybody who doesn't think exactly like you do is a heretic
Wrong.
Whatever. You still have no point. And I may in fact be wrong on this. But from the content of your posts, any rational person would be led to believe precisely what I said. I have no intention of insulting you. But by any definition, you are exceedingly narrow-minded, far more so than any other person I have met in this forum. Although I have often been quite nasty to you, a matter that has actually led me to the Confessional on one occasion, I have NEVER started it with you. I have only been nasty to you when you have provoked me with an equal or greater level of nastiness. I shall not apologise for considering you an extremely distasteful and unpleasant individual. Again, these are NOT insults, for which I could rightly be punished on OCNet. These are simple observations that are being made after seeing how you have treated me and others with whom you disagree. You are certainly free to disagree with me and anyone else. But it is immoral of you in the extreme to be rude and disrespectful, and I personally think you need to go to Confession regarding the subject, just as I have. But that is my opinion only, and I am not (nor do I wish to be) in charge of your soul. As I have said before: Opinions are like belly buttons. We've all got one, and they are all different.
Wrong.
That is also an opinion, which again, is quite subjective. And where am I wrong? Which point in my statement is wrong? Or is it ALL wrong? Please do be more precise.
Wrong again.
 

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Let's run this down, Diego.

You're on an Orthodox forum designed for discussion about Orthodoxy.  Heretic = anyone whose teachings run counter to Orthodox dogma and doctrine.  If such a person repents, that person is no longer a heretic.  If they do not, they remain so, yes, even beyond the veil.  Mor already referenced the Scriptural quote I was going to pull, to reiterate his point about there not being dead Saints: Christ Himself attests to this.  Further, in both the Old Testament, the New Testament, and Church history, the teacher is accountable before God not only for themselves, but for those they lead, whether rightly or astray.  Luther did not repent, started a movement that persists to this day, and so yes, according to Orthodox thought, he was and is a heretic, and he is accountable for any souls misguided by his teachings henceforth and forevermore.  You are absolutely free to reject Orthodoxy and pray you're right, but you may not tell the Church how to define its terms.

As for the rest, everything you've leveled against Mor is ridiculous, bordering on insane.  Your account of your role in those interactions is grossly inaccurate.  Just because you make this or that pronouncement or proclaim your innocence does not mean anyone else is swayed.  There really isn't much else to say, and you going on about opinions doesn't change any of those facts.
 

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Ainnir said:
Let's run this down, Diego.

You're on an Orthodox forum designed for discussion about Orthodoxy.  Heretic = anyone whose teachings run counter to Orthodox dogma and doctrine.  If such a person repents, that person is no longer a heretic.  If they do not, they remain so, yes, even beyond the veil.  Mor already referenced the Scriptural quote I was going to pull, to reiterate his point about there not being dead Saints: Christ Himself attests to this.  Further, in both the Old Testament, the New Testament, and Church history, the teacher is accountable before God not only for themselves, but for those they lead, whether rightly or astray.  Luther did not repent, started a movement that persists to this day, and so yes, according to Orthodox thought, he was and is a heretic, and he is accountable for any souls misguided by his teachings henceforth and forevermore.  You are absolutely free to reject Orthodoxy and pray you're right, but you may not tell the Church how to define its terms.

As for the rest, everything you've leveled against Mor is ridiculous, bordering on insane.  Your account of your role in those interactions is grossly inaccurate.  Just because you make this or that pronouncement or proclaim your innocence does not mean anyone else is swayed.  There really isn't much else to say, and you going on about opinions doesn't change any of those facts.
I know for a fact that I have never initiated incivility with MOR, though I have certainly responded in kind and then some. As for our doctrinal differences, I am speaking simply in terms of grammar. A dead person cannot be anything other than dead, even if he was the most damnable heretic whilst alive. That is simply accurate, versus inaccurate, use of the language. I am sorry that you and Mor do not see that, but as an English teacher, I am constrained to point it out. And calling someone a heretic, even if you think they are such, is simply uncivil. I know the OT, the NT, and Church history as well or better than you do, so please do me the courtesy of not insulting my intelligence. If that is beyond your ability, then I should prefer that you not speak to me at all.
 

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Diego said:
Ainnir said:
Let's run this down, Diego.

You're on an Orthodox forum designed for discussion about Orthodoxy.  Heretic = anyone whose teachings run counter to Orthodox dogma and doctrine.  If such a person repents, that person is no longer a heretic.  If they do not, they remain so, yes, even beyond the veil.  Mor already referenced the Scriptural quote I was going to pull, to reiterate his point about there not being dead Saints: Christ Himself attests to this.  Further, in both the Old Testament, the New Testament, and Church history, the teacher is accountable before God not only for themselves, but for those they lead, whether rightly or astray.  Luther did not repent, started a movement that persists to this day, and so yes, according to Orthodox thought, he was and is a heretic, and he is accountable for any souls misguided by his teachings henceforth and forevermore.  You are absolutely free to reject Orthodoxy and pray you're right, but you may not tell the Church how to define its terms.

As for the rest, everything you've leveled against Mor is ridiculous, bordering on insane.  Your account of your role in those interactions is grossly inaccurate.  Just because you make this or that pronouncement or proclaim your innocence does not mean anyone else is swayed.  There really isn't much else to say, and you going on about opinions doesn't change any of those facts.
I know for a fact that I have never initiated incivility with MOR, though I have certainly responded in kind and then some. As for our doctrinal differences, I am speaking simply in terms of grammar. A dead person cannot be anything other than dead, even if he was the most damnable heretic whilst alive. That is simply accurate, versus inaccurate, use of the language. I am sorry that you and Mor do not see that, but as an English teacher, I am constrained to point it out. And calling someone a heretic, even if you think they are such, is simply uncivil. I know the OT, the NT, and Church history as well or better than you do, so please do me the courtesy of not insulting my intelligence. If that is beyond your ability, then I should prefer that you not speak to me at all.
You sound like some kind of communist hippy
 

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I am not a Communist, though I once was. I grew up. I have never been a hippie. I simply believe in being civil, and almost always am, until someone becomes UNcivil with me. Then, I admit, I tend to go completely ballistic with no rhyme or reason.
 

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Ainnir said:
Let's run this down, Diego.

You're on an Orthodox forum designed for discussion about Orthodoxy.  Heretic = anyone whose teachings run counter to Orthodox dogma and doctrine.  If such a person repents, that person is no longer a heretic.  If they do not, they remain so, yes, even beyond the veil.  Mor already referenced the Scriptural quote I was going to pull, to reiterate his point about there not being dead Saints: Christ Himself attests to this.  Further, in both the Old Testament, the New Testament, and Church history, the teacher is accountable before God not only for themselves, but for those they lead, whether rightly or astray.  Luther did not repent, started a movement that persists to this day, and so yes, according to Orthodox thought, he was and is a heretic, and he is accountable for any souls misguided by his teachings henceforth and forevermore.  You are absolutely free to reject Orthodoxy and pray you're right, but you may not tell the Church how to define its terms.

As for the rest, everything you've leveled against Mor is ridiculous, bordering on insane.  Your account of your role in those interactions is grossly inaccurate.  Just because you make this or that pronouncement or proclaim your innocence does not mean anyone else is swayed.  There really isn't much else to say, and you going on about opinions doesn't change any of those facts.
Right.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Ainnir said:
Let's run this down, Diego.

You're on an Orthodox forum designed for discussion about Orthodoxy.  Heretic = anyone whose teachings run counter to Orthodox dogma and doctrine.  If such a person repents, that person is no longer a heretic.  If they do not, they remain so, yes, even beyond the veil.  Mor already referenced the Scriptural quote I was going to pull, to reiterate his point about there not being dead Saints: Christ Himself attests to this.  Further, in both the Old Testament, the New Testament, and Church history, the teacher is accountable before God not only for themselves, but for those they lead, whether rightly or astray.  Luther did not repent, started a movement that persists to this day, and so yes, according to Orthodox thought, he was and is a heretic, and he is accountable for any souls misguided by his teachings henceforth and forevermore.  You are absolutely free to reject Orthodoxy and pray you're right, but you may not tell the Church how to define its terms.

As for the rest, everything you've leveled against Mor is ridiculous, bordering on insane.  Your account of your role in those interactions is grossly inaccurate.  Just because you make this or that pronouncement or proclaim your innocence does not mean anyone else is swayed.  There really isn't much else to say, and you going on about opinions doesn't change any of those facts.
Right.
And your saying "right" does not make it so.
 

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Diego said:
I am not a Communist, though I once was. I grew up. I have never been a hippie. I simply believe in being civil, and almost always am, until someone becomes UNcivil with me. Then, I admit, I tend to go completely ballistic with no rhyme or reason.
Get a job
 

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Diego said:
I am not a Communist, though I once was. I grew up. I have never been a hippie. I simply believe in being civil, and almost always am, until someone becomes UNcivil with me. Then, I admit, I tend to go completely ballistic with no rhyme or reason.
Similar to an unhinged child.
 

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hecma925 said:
Diego said:
I am not a Communist, though I once was. I grew up. I have never been a hippie. I simply believe in being civil, and almost always am, until someone becomes UNcivil with me. Then, I admit, I tend to go completely ballistic with no rhyme or reason.
Similar to an unhinged child.
Truth.  Lord, have mercy.
 

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Diego said:
I know the OT, the NT, and Church history as well or better than you do, so please do me the courtesy of not insulting my intelligence.
This right here is exactly why the Protestant movement has been and continues to grow into total disarray. It is the reason people with this exact attitude go rent store fronts and start "new churches" and "church plants" because the "church" from which they broke didn't know the Bible the way they did. Heretic at its base root is one who chooses for themself in matters of faith or morals.

Your comment is the error of protestantism stemming from "sola scriptura." In your mind, to perceive you "know" the OT and NT better than others is to know the faith better than all. 
 

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noahzarc1 said:
Diego said:
I know the OT, the NT, and Church history as well or better than you do, so please do me the courtesy of not insulting my intelligence.
This right here is exactly why the Protestant movement has been and continues to grow into total disarray. It is the reason people with this exact attitude go rent store fronts and start "new churches" and "church plants" because the "church" from which they broke didn't know the Bible the way they did. Heretic at its base root is one who chooses for themself in matters of faith or morals.

Your comment is the error of protestantism stemming from "sola scriptura." In your mind, to perceive you "know" the OT and NT better than others is to know the faith better than all.
+1
Terrible is the fall when one experiences the failure of this dogma.
 

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So far, all your responses are proving is that you cannot win a debate. The fact that I probably DO know the OT, the NT, and Church History as well or better than you do infuriates you. Those who start storefront churches generally neither know, nor care about, Church History. Their knowledge of the OT and the NT we would both agree is defective, and when put to the test, cannot hold up under rigorous analysis. The Lutheran understanding of Scripture and Church History, on the other hand, has held up for 502 years (almost). Martin Luther had no intention of starting a separate Church. If the Papacy (which was and is one of the horns of Anti-Christ, Islam being the other) had listened to him, all of this could have been settled within Church structures.

Now admittedly, once Luther's very limited reform was rejected, that opened the gates to all kinds of crap. Those who were waiting in the wings to DESTROY the Church were given a hearing, and you end up with Calvinism, Zwinglianism,and every other awful thing one can think of.

Remember, the Papacy is Irreformata. It cannot be reformed in its present state. It is rather like the situation under Gorbachev in Russia. He was, and still is, a very good man. But the Soviet Government was irredeemably evil, and could not be reformed. In spite of the very many holy men that have occupied the Papal Chair, there have been equally as many evil men in the office. That is because the Papacy is irredeemably evil as it is currently comprised.

Luther knew what he was doing. As long as a Church does not stray from the Confessions, all is well. Dropping them, well, that is another story, of course.

I would recommend that before criticising me, you take a moment to look in the mirror. According the West, Orthodoxy is in rebellion against the properly established Papal structures. You say they are in rebellion against the Oecumene (sp?). Lutherans say you BOTH have your issues, although the Romanists have a few more issues than Orthodoxy, we shall grant. I personally say nothing. I let the Confessions speak for me.
 

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Diego said:
So far, all your responses are proving is that you cannot win a debate. The fact that I probably DO know the OT, the NT, and Church History as well or better than you do infuriates you. Those who start storefront churches generally neither know, nor care about, Church History. Their knowledge of the OT and the NT we would both agree is defective, and when put to the test, cannot hold up under rigorous analysis. The Lutheran understanding of Scripture and Church History, on the other hand, has held up for 502 years (almost). Martin Luther had no intention of starting a separate Church. If the Papacy (which was and is one of the horns of Anti-Christ, Islam being the other) had listened to him, all of this could have been settled within Church structures.

Now admittedly, once Luther's very limited reform was rejected, that opened the gates to all kinds of crap. Those who were waiting in the wings to DESTROY the Church were given a hearing, and you end up with Calvinism, Zwinglianism,and every other awful thing one can think of.

Remember, the Papacy is Irreformata. It cannot be reformed in its present state. It is rather like the situation under Gorbachev in Russia. He was, and still is, a very good man. But the Soviet Government was irredeemably evil, and could not be reformed. In spite of the very many holy men that have occupied the Papal Chair, there have been equally as many evil men in the office. That is because the Papacy is irredeemably evil as it is currently comprised.

Luther knew what he was doing. As long as a Church does not stray from the Confessions, all is well. Dropping them, well, that is another story, of course.

I would recommend that before criticising me, you take a moment to look in the mirror. According the West, Orthodoxy is in rebellion against the properly established Papal structures. You say they are in rebellion against the Oecumene (sp?). Lutherans say you BOTH have your issues, although the Romanists have a few more issues than Orthodoxy, we shall grant. I personally say nothing. I let the Confessions speak for me.
This sounds exactly like something Stalin would say
 

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Iconodule said:
Diego said:
So far, all your responses are proving is that you cannot win a debate. The fact that I probably DO know the OT, the NT, and Church History as well or better than you do infuriates you. Those who start storefront churches generally neither know, nor care about, Church History. Their knowledge of the OT and the NT we would both agree is defective, and when put to the test, cannot hold up under rigorous analysis. The Lutheran understanding of Scripture and Church History, on the other hand, has held up for 502 years (almost). Martin Luther had no intention of starting a separate Church. If the Papacy (which was and is one of the horns of Anti-Christ, Islam being the other) had listened to him, all of this could have been settled within Church structures.

Now admittedly, once Luther's very limited reform was rejected, that opened the gates to all kinds of crap. Those who were waiting in the wings to DESTROY the Church were given a hearing, and you end up with Calvinism, Zwinglianism,and every other awful thing one can think of.

Remember, the Papacy is Irreformata. It cannot be reformed in its present state. It is rather like the situation under Gorbachev in Russia. He was, and still is, a very good man. But the Soviet Government was irredeemably evil, and could not be reformed. In spite of the very many holy men that have occupied the Papal Chair, there have been equally as many evil men in the office. That is because the Papacy is irredeemably evil as it is currently comprised.

Luther knew what he was doing. As long as a Church does not stray from the Confessions, all is well. Dropping them, well, that is another story, of course.

I would recommend that before criticising me, you take a moment to look in the mirror. According the West, Orthodoxy is in rebellion against the properly established Papal structures. You say they are in rebellion against the Oecumene (sp?). Lutherans say you BOTH have your issues, although the Romanists have a few more issues than Orthodoxy, we shall grant. I personally say nothing. I let the Confessions speak for me.
This sounds exactly like something Stalin would say
That is just a completely ridiculous thing to say. How does it sound like something Stalin would say? You are succeeding only in proving yourself to be illogical and silly.
 

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hecma925 said:
Diego said:
I am not a Communist, though I once was. I grew up. I have never been a hippie. I simply believe in being civil, and almost always am, until someone becomes UNcivil with me. Then, I admit, I tend to go completely ballistic with no rhyme or reason.
Similar to an unhinged child.
Who is the more unhinged? The one who responds in somewhat justifiable anger, or the one who initiates the problem, knowing what the results will be?
 

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Diego said:
Iconodule said:
Diego said:
So far, all your responses are proving is that you cannot win a debate. The fact that I probably DO know the OT, the NT, and Church History as well or better than you do infuriates you. Those who start storefront churches generally neither know, nor care about, Church History. Their knowledge of the OT and the NT we would both agree is defective, and when put to the test, cannot hold up under rigorous analysis. The Lutheran understanding of Scripture and Church History, on the other hand, has held up for 502 years (almost). Martin Luther had no intention of starting a separate Church. If the Papacy (which was and is one of the horns of Anti-Christ, Islam being the other) had listened to him, all of this could have been settled within Church structures.

Now admittedly, once Luther's very limited reform was rejected, that opened the gates to all kinds of crap. Those who were waiting in the wings to DESTROY the Church were given a hearing, and you end up with Calvinism, Zwinglianism,and every other awful thing one can think of.

Remember, the Papacy is Irreformata. It cannot be reformed in its present state. It is rather like the situation under Gorbachev in Russia. He was, and still is, a very good man. But the Soviet Government was irredeemably evil, and could not be reformed. In spite of the very many holy men that have occupied the Papal Chair, there have been equally as many evil men in the office. That is because the Papacy is irredeemably evil as it is currently comprised.

Luther knew what he was doing. As long as a Church does not stray from the Confessions, all is well. Dropping them, well, that is another story, of course.

I would recommend that before criticising me, you take a moment to look in the mirror. According the West, Orthodoxy is in rebellion against the properly established Papal structures. You say they are in rebellion against the Oecumene (sp?). Lutherans say you BOTH have your issues, although the Romanists have a few more issues than Orthodoxy, we shall grant. I personally say nothing. I let the Confessions speak for me.
This sounds exactly like something Stalin would say
That is just a completely ridiculous thing to say. How does it sound like something Stalin would say? You are succeeding only in proving yourself to be illogical and silly.
I think it’s high time that you reduce your cocaine intake
 

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Iconodule said:
Diego said:
Iconodule said:
Diego said:
So far, all your responses are proving is that you cannot win a debate. The fact that I probably DO know the OT, the NT, and Church History as well or better than you do infuriates you. Those who start storefront churches generally neither know, nor care about, Church History. Their knowledge of the OT and the NT we would both agree is defective, and when put to the test, cannot hold up under rigorous analysis. The Lutheran understanding of Scripture and Church History, on the other hand, has held up for 502 years (almost). Martin Luther had no intention of starting a separate Church. If the Papacy (which was and is one of the horns of Anti-Christ, Islam being the other) had listened to him, all of this could have been settled within Church structures.

Now admittedly, once Luther's very limited reform was rejected, that opened the gates to all kinds of crap. Those who were waiting in the wings to DESTROY the Church were given a hearing, and you end up with Calvinism, Zwinglianism,and every other awful thing one can think of.

Remember, the Papacy is Irreformata. It cannot be reformed in its present state. It is rather like the situation under Gorbachev in Russia. He was, and still is, a very good man. But the Soviet Government was irredeemably evil, and could not be reformed. In spite of the very many holy men that have occupied the Papal Chair, there have been equally as many evil men in the office. That is because the Papacy is irredeemably evil as it is currently comprised.

Luther knew what he was doing. As long as a Church does not stray from the Confessions, all is well. Dropping them, well, that is another story, of course.

I would recommend that before criticising me, you take a moment to look in the mirror. According the West, Orthodoxy is in rebellion against the properly established Papal structures. You say they are in rebellion against the Oecumene (sp?). Lutherans say you BOTH have your issues, although the Romanists have a few more issues than Orthodoxy, we shall grant. I personally say nothing. I let the Confessions speak for me.
This sounds exactly like something Stalin would say
That is just a completely ridiculous thing to say. How does it sound like something Stalin would say? You are succeeding only in proving yourself to be illogical and silly.
I think it’s high time that you reduce your cocaine intake
I think it's high time you stop being illogical and insulting, and actually respond to the argument at hand, rather than responding with non sequiturs. Of course, if I said something like that to you, I would probably get a warning here. But how I get warned, and how everyone else gets warned, seem to be two entirely different matters, that no one has managed to explain to me logically.
 

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Diego said:
Iconodule said:
Diego said:
Iconodule said:
Diego said:
So far, all your responses are proving is that you cannot win a debate. The fact that I probably DO know the OT, the NT, and Church History as well or better than you do infuriates you. Those who start storefront churches generally neither know, nor care about, Church History. Their knowledge of the OT and the NT we would both agree is defective, and when put to the test, cannot hold up under rigorous analysis. The Lutheran understanding of Scripture and Church History, on the other hand, has held up for 502 years (almost). Martin Luther had no intention of starting a separate Church. If the Papacy (which was and is one of the horns of Anti-Christ, Islam being the other) had listened to him, all of this could have been settled within Church structures.

Now admittedly, once Luther's very limited reform was rejected, that opened the gates to all kinds of crap. Those who were waiting in the wings to DESTROY the Church were given a hearing, and you end up with Calvinism, Zwinglianism,and every other awful thing one can think of.

Remember, the Papacy is Irreformata. It cannot be reformed in its present state. It is rather like the situation under Gorbachev in Russia. He was, and still is, a very good man. But the Soviet Government was irredeemably evil, and could not be reformed. In spite of the very many holy men that have occupied the Papal Chair, there have been equally as many evil men in the office. That is because the Papacy is irredeemably evil as it is currently comprised.

Luther knew what he was doing. As long as a Church does not stray from the Confessions, all is well. Dropping them, well, that is another story, of course.

I would recommend that before criticising me, you take a moment to look in the mirror. According the West, Orthodoxy is in rebellion against the properly established Papal structures. You say they are in rebellion against the Oecumene (sp?). Lutherans say you BOTH have your issues, although the Romanists have a few more issues than Orthodoxy, we shall grant. I personally say nothing. I let the Confessions speak for me.
This sounds exactly like something Stalin would say
That is just a completely ridiculous thing to say. How does it sound like something Stalin would say? You are succeeding only in proving yourself to be illogical and silly.
I think it’s high time that you reduce your cocaine intake
I think it's high time you stop being illogical and insulting, and actually respond to the argument at hand, rather than responding with non sequiturs. Of course, if I said something like that to you, I would probably get a warning here. But how I get warned, and how everyone else gets warned, seem to be two entirely different matters, that no one has managed to explain to me logically.
I detect a whiff of anti-semitism in this comment. Typical Lutheran. Reported!
 

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Iconodule said:
Diego said:
Iconodule said:
Diego said:
Iconodule said:
Diego said:
So far, all your responses are proving is that you cannot win a debate. The fact that I probably DO know the OT, the NT, and Church History as well or better than you do infuriates you. Those who start storefront churches generally neither know, nor care about, Church History. Their knowledge of the OT and the NT we would both agree is defective, and when put to the test, cannot hold up under rigorous analysis. The Lutheran understanding of Scripture and Church History, on the other hand, has held up for 502 years (almost). Martin Luther had no intention of starting a separate Church. If the Papacy (which was and is one of the horns of Anti-Christ, Islam being the other) had listened to him, all of this could have been settled within Church structures.

Now admittedly, once Luther's very limited reform was rejected, that opened the gates to all kinds of crap. Those who were waiting in the wings to DESTROY the Church were given a hearing, and you end up with Calvinism, Zwinglianism,and every other awful thing one can think of.

Remember, the Papacy is Irreformata. It cannot be reformed in its present state. It is rather like the situation under Gorbachev in Russia. He was, and still is, a very good man. But the Soviet Government was irredeemably evil, and could not be reformed. In spite of the very many holy men that have occupied the Papal Chair, there have been equally as many evil men in the office. That is because the Papacy is irredeemably evil as it is currently comprised.

Luther knew what he was doing. As long as a Church does not stray from the Confessions, all is well. Dropping them, well, that is another story, of course.

I would recommend that before criticising me, you take a moment to look in the mirror. According the West, Orthodoxy is in rebellion against the properly established Papal structures. You say they are in rebellion against the Oecumene (sp?). Lutherans say you BOTH have your issues, although the Romanists have a few more issues than Orthodoxy, we shall grant. I personally say nothing. I let the Confessions speak for me.
This sounds exactly like something Stalin would say
That is just a completely ridiculous thing to say. How does it sound like something Stalin would say? You are succeeding only in proving yourself to be illogical and silly.
I think it’s high time that you reduce your cocaine intake
I think it's high time you stop being illogical and insulting, and actually respond to the argument at hand, rather than responding with non sequiturs. Of course, if I said something like that to you, I would probably get a warning here. But how I get warned, and how everyone else gets warned, seem to be two entirely different matters, that no one has managed to explain to me logically.
I detect a whiff of anti-semitism in this comment. Typical Lutheran. Reported!
Ah, whatever. Also, as regards which of our Churches is the more anti-Semitic, remember, "pogrom" is a Russian, not a German, word, and Russia is today a far more anti-Semitic state than Germany.
 
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