Discussion on Ecumenism

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Jonathan Gress said:
Actually, Irish Hermit, what the American bishops produce ought to be of very grave concern to you in Europe. If the bishops here are preaching heresy, as I think you have already implicitly conceded, why are your bishops utterly silent on the matter, presuming they are Orthodox?
Again, you are not being logical.  This is not "the American bishops preaching heresy."  This is a small think tank of American theologians who are flying a kite, as they have on several issues.   They would like to see the Orthodox Churches make statements recognising heterodox baptism.  Have any of the bishops or Churches responded?   No!   Are you aware of even one Church which has made a statement that it accepts heterodox baptism?

 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
If the church you belong to truly rejects it, where is the statement of your church condemning this heretical document, and where is the censure of those clergy who participated in drafting it? Silence implies consent, therefore we traditionalists are quite justified in drawing from this document the conclusion that the official Churches have fallen into heresy.
Does the logic hold water?  If silence implies consent then you and your Church are in heresy by your own self-admission.  In 1983 the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece issued an important statement condemning the heresy of Old Calendarist Ecumenism.  I am not aware that your Church has denied this and without a rebuttal from your Church we must conclude that your Church has fallen into heresy.




http://genuineorthodoxchurch.com/1983Encyclical_against_OldCalendarEcumenism.htm


Encyclical of 1983 Against "Old Calendarist Ecumenism"
ACT OF THE HOLY AND SACRED COUNCIL OF THE GENUINE ORTHODOX CHURCH OF GREECE

Protocol Number: 6/13-7-1983

Theme: Condemnation of the so-called "Old Calendarist Ecumenism."

The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece in its session of July 13, 1983, addressed the theme of the so-called "Old Calendarist Ecumenism", and took into account:

a) That the so-called "Old Calendarist Ecumenism" teaches an entirely heretical teaching, to wit, that all the groups and factions that follow the old calendar together consist and belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ, and it proposes a union of these [factions] according to an ecumenistic perception and not according to the Orthodox Confession and Ecclesiology.

b) That "Old Calendarist Ecumenism" is a fruit and product of antichristian Ecumenism, the pan-heresy of our age, which seeks, through the fractions and divisions and the ecclesiological confusion, to distort the Orthodox Confession – Ecclesiology and to introduce this heretical teaching into the Uninnovated Church, in order to thereby suffocate it.

c) That the age, in which we are going through, is an age of general apostasy and ecclesiological confusion, which was caused by antichristian Ecumenism. Thus, the criticality of these times requires [from us] especially, a continuous way of life in the pure Confession of the Orthodox Faith and in the teachings of the Church of Christ.

d) That "the chosen vessel," the divine Apostle Paul, commands us all: "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood," and continues: "grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:28-30)

e) That many have arisen, speaking perversely, for the purpose of setting aside the Confession and Ecclesiology of the Holy Church of Christ, and turn against the divine and Sacred Canons and generally against the Holy and Sacred Tradition, by preaching "Old Calendarist Ecumenism" with bared head, and disturbing the assembly of the faithful.

Since "Old Calendarist Ecumenism" is condemned by the consensus of the divine and Sacred Canons and is something foreign and polemical against the Orthodox Confession and Ecclesiology of the Church of Christ, for this reason, together with our Holy and God-bearing Fathers, holding the divine and Sacred Canons in embrace, in the Holy Spirit we decide:

1. We judge and condemn the so-called “Old Calendarist Ecumenism,” as something foreign to, and incompatible with, the Orthodox Confession and Ecclesiology of the Holy Church of Christ.

2. With one mouth and one heart we confess and preach that the Genuine Orthodox Church, which for reasons of discernment is called "uninnovated" or "Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians," is the continuation of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ, from which [the following] were torn off: firstly, the innovated new calendarist church, through the introduction of the condemned papist innovation [of the calendar], by which Ecumenism entered in 1924; and secondly, the various old calendarist schisms, which were created by their distortion of the Confession – Ecclesiology of the uninnovated Holy Church of Christ.

3. This Orthodox Confession – Ecclesiology was printed and preached since 1924, and was Synodically preached in the historic year of 1935. We also keep it, preach it and confess it.

4. With one voice we disapprove and remove any expressions or publications which, regardless of what context or by whom they were written, are unacceptable from an Orthodox perspective and are foreign to the Orthodox Confession and Ecclesiology, and we order that from now on, anything contradictory, whether it be due to carelessness or through human weakness, we regard it as having not been written.

In the year of salvation 1983, on July the 13th (old calendar).

The President:
+ ANDREW of Athens and all Greece

The Members:
+ GREGORY of Messenia
+ MATTHEW of Megaris
+ LAZARUS of Bresthena
+ PACHOMIUS of Argolis
+ THEODOSIUS of Phthiotis
+ TITUS of Kozane

The Chief Secretary
+ Hieromonk Kirykos (Kontogiannis)
Um I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the belief in Old Calendarist Ecumenism is a heresy? Well I don't believe that, and neither does my church. Do you believe that the concept of OC Ecumenism is a heresy?
 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Actually, Irish Hermit, what the American bishops produce ought to be of very grave concern to you in Europe. If the bishops here are preaching heresy, as I think you have already implicitly conceded, why are your bishops utterly silent on the matter, presuming they are Orthodox?
Again, you are not being logical.  This is not "the American bishops preaching heresy."  This is a small think tank of American theologians who are flying a kite, as they have on several issues.   They would like to see the Orthodox Churches make statements recognising heterodox baptism.  Have any of the bishops or Churches responded?   No!   Are you aware of even one Church which has made a statement that it accepts heterodox baptism?
I am being quite logical, unlike you. If your church believed that heterodox baptism was invalid, your church would have condemned those theologians who taught otherwise. Since your church has not, as far as I can see, your church accepts the teaching, although it may not want to make too much of it lest it scare away traditionalists.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Jonathan Gress said:
.

Um I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the belief in Old Calendarist Ecumenism is a heresy? Well I don't believe that, and neither does my church. Do you believe that the concept of OC Ecumenism is a heresy?
Yee.  Nearly all Old Calendarists are heretics because they have accepted the ecumenistic Branch Theory of an Invisible Church.  They believe that Churches which are not in communion with one another and in many cases their bishops strongly reject one another, form an invisibly united Church.  This is a purely ecumenistic understanding and heretical.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Jonathan Gress said:
I am being quite logical, unlike you. If your church believed that heterodox baptism was invalid, your church would have condemned those theologians who taught otherwise. Since your church has not, as far as I can see, your church accepts the teaching, although it may not want to make too much of it lest it scare away traditionalists.
Are you aware of the Russian Patriarchate's censure of its bishop in Germany who made the mistake of signing an interchurch document which acknowledged Lutheran baptism?


Are you aware that your Church has not rejected the statement by the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece that you are heretical by virtue of your Old Calendarist ecumenism?  Are you afraid to upset your traditionalists by offering a rebuttal to this charge of heresy? 
 

LBK

Toumarches
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
13,641
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Actually, Irish Hermit, what the American bishops produce ought to be of very grave concern to you in Europe. If the bishops here are preaching heresy, as I think you have already implicitly conceded, why are your bishops utterly silent on the matter, presuming they are Orthodox?
Again, you are not being logical.  This is not "the American bishops preaching heresy."  This is a small think tank of American theologians who are flying a kite, as they have on several issues.   They would like to see the Orthodox Churches make statements recognising heterodox baptism.  Have any of the bishops or Churches responded?   No!   Are you aware of even one Church which has made a statement that it accepts heterodox baptism?
More to the point, I dare anyone to provide examples (even just one) of canonical Orthodox churches anywhere in the world who would allow anyone of non-Orthodox baptism to receive Holy Communion, unless such individuals have been canonically received (by baptism or chrismation) into the Church. Therefore, Jonathan, a "formal statement" on the part of any Orthodox church is unnecessary, as it is the praxis of the Churches which speak far more loudly. Conversely, there are many instances of Old Calendarist groups insisting on baptism or chrismation of individuals who wish to join such groups, who have earlier in their lives received an Orthodox baptism. Que?
 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
LBK said:
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Actually, Irish Hermit, what the American bishops produce ought to be of very grave concern to you in Europe. If the bishops here are preaching heresy, as I think you have already implicitly conceded, why are your bishops utterly silent on the matter, presuming they are Orthodox?
Again, you are not being logical.  This is not "the American bishops preaching heresy."  This is a small think tank of American theologians who are flying a kite, as they have on several issues.   They would like to see the Orthodox Churches make statements recognising heterodox baptism.  Have any of the bishops or Churches responded?   No!   Are you aware of even one Church which has made a statement that it accepts heterodox baptism?
More to the point, I dare anyone to provide examples (even just one) of canonical Orthodox churches anywhere in the world who would allow anyone of non-Orthodox baptism to receive Holy Communion, unless such individuals have been canonically received (by baptism or chrismation) into the Church. Therefore, Jonathan, a "formal statement" on the part of any Orthodox church is unnecessary, as it is the praxis of the Churches which speak far more loudly. Conversely, there are many instances of Old Calendarist groups insisting on baptism or chrismation of individuals who wish to join such groups, who have earlier in their lives received an Orthodox baptism. Que?
Hm LBK have you heard of how the EP administered the mysteries to Catholics in Ravenna in 2002?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ravenna.aspx
 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
.

Um I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the belief in Old Calendarist Ecumenism is a heresy? Well I don't believe that, and neither does my church. Do you believe that the concept of OC Ecumenism is a heresy?
Yee.  Nearly all Old Calendarists are heretics because they have accepted the ecumenistic Branch Theory of an Invisible Church.  They believe that Churches which are not in communion with one another and in many cases their bishops strongly reject one another, form an invisibly united Church.  This is a purely ecumenistic understanding and heretical.
That's rich IH. The Old Calendarists are ecumenists, the New Calendarists are not. Care to provide some evidence aside from this 'statement'?

The Matthewite synod that made that proclamation has no authority as far as I'm concerned. They also don't have any authority as far as you're concerned, so I don't understand what you are trying to prove from it. Has the ecumenist synod you're part of ever anathematized the Old Calendarists on the grounds they are ecumenists? I'd be more liable to give heed to that.

We have made no statement on the validity of the mysteries of other OC jurisdictions. The TOC of Greece under Abp Chrysostomos has condemned the teachings of Met Cyprian of Fili on 'sick' and 'healthy' members of the Church (the truth is, you're either a heretic and outside the Church, or you're not), but that's it as far as I know. So since the other TOC jurisdictions apart from the Cyprianites are not under any kind of anathema, on what grounds do you condemn those of us who say their mysteries may be valid?
 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
I am being quite logical, unlike you. If your church believed that heterodox baptism was invalid, your church would have condemned those theologians who taught otherwise. Since your church has not, as far as I can see, your church accepts the teaching, although it may not want to make too much of it lest it scare away traditionalists.
Are you aware of the Russian Patriarchate's censure of its bishop in Germany who made the mistake of signing an interchurch document which acknowledged Lutheran baptism?


Are you aware that your Church has not rejected the statement by the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece that you are heretical by virtue of your Old Calendarist ecumenism?  Are you afraid to upset your traditionalists by offering a rebuttal to this charge of heresy? 
I am also aware that the MP has not censured the American churches for their heretical statements such as the one I cited. I am aware they maintain communion with such open ecumenists, including members of their own synod like Bp Hilarion of Vienna.
 

LBK

Toumarches
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
13,641
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Jonathan Gress said:
Hm LBK have you heard of how the EP administered the mysteries to Catholics in Ravenna in 2002?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ravenna.aspx
I do find it difficult to take such an article seriously when the Archbishop of Athens is repeatedly referred to as Anastasios. Last time I checked, the name of the Archbishop of Athens in 2002 was Christodoulos:p
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
21,837
Reaction score
18
Points
38
Age
39
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Jonathan Gress said:
Hm LBK have you heard of how the EP administered the mysteries to Catholics in Ravenna in 2002?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ravenna.aspx
I highly doubt it.  In the article the accusation starts as "the EP and Archbishop Anastasios" gave communion to RCs, then the accusation has to be withdrawn because they find themselves to be mistaken when confronted with His Beatitude's testimony.  It is a (infinitely, technically) shorter leap from "wrong once" to "wrong twice" than it is from "never wrong" to "wrong once."
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
21,837
Reaction score
18
Points
38
Age
39
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
LBK said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Hm LBK have you heard of how the EP administered the mysteries to Catholics in Ravenna in 2002?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ravenna.aspx
I do find it difficult to take such an article seriously when the Archbishop of Athens is repeatedly referred to as Anastasios. Last time I checked, the name of the Archbishop of Athens in 2002 was Christodoulos:p
The accusation is actually leveled against His Beatitude, Archbishop Anastasios of Tirana and all Albania.
 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
The final concession only refers to Abp Anastasios. The EP is still implicated in administering communion to the heterodox. So LBK, you have your example.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Jonathan Gress said:
[Hm LBK have you heard of how the EP administered the mysteries to Catholics in Ravenna in 2002?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ravenna.aspx
Why should this worry you, JG?  Has not your Church declared that the Holy Mysteries of the Greeks are nothing but bread and wine in a chalice?

For example, one of your nuns the holy abbess Efrosinia has declared that the Serbian Church is no longer Orthodox and no longer has the Holy Mysteries nor the Holy Spirit. I assume she would extend that denial to all the other Orthodox Churches, which means that grace has virtually disappeared from the world, to be found only among a tiny group of whom she approves.

She admits that these days you can hardly get into any Serbian church, so great are the numbers now attending services - but it is all in vain, she says, because "the Holy Spirit has departed."

May the Lord have mercy on this nun and those who follow her and her bishop in Athens.

 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
[Hm LBK have you heard of how the EP administered the mysteries to Catholics in Ravenna in 2002?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ravenna.aspx
Why should this worry you, JG?  Has not your Church declared that the Holy Mysteries of the Greeks are nothing but bread and wine in a chalice?

For example, one of your nuns the holy abbess Efrosinia has declared that the Serbian Church is no longer Orthodox and no longer has the Holy Mysteries nor the Holy Spirit. I assume she would extend that denial to all the other Orthodox Churches, which means that grace has virtually disappeared from the world, to be found only among a tiny group of whom she approves.

She admits that these days you can hardly get into any Serbian church, so great are the numbers now attending services - but it is all in vain, she says, because "the Holy Spirit has departed."

May the Lord have mercy on this nun and those who follow her and her bishop in Athens.
What matters is not what I think about this event. What matters is what YOU think. Do you believe the mysteries of the Patriarch are true mysteries? Do you not object to the fact that he administered them to the Latins?
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Jonathan Gress said:
What matters is not what I think about this event. What matters is what YOU think
So I do not really understand why you are making a fuss.

"Like one who seizes a dog by the ears is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own."

Proverbs 26:17
 

Jonathan Gress

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
5,541
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Jonathan Gress said:
What matters is not what I think about this event. What matters is what YOU think
So I do not really understand why you are making a fuss.

"Like one who seizes a dog by the ears is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own."

Proverbs 26:17
So if I understand the force of that quotation, you would like us traditionalists to leave you ecumenists alone to administer your so-called 'mysteries' to the heretics, partaking together in damnation, rather than try to warn you of the spiritual peril you are in and urge you to return to the fold of the True Church? All right then.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Jonathan Gress said:
So if I understand the force of that quotation, you would like us traditionalists to leave you ecumenists alone to administer your so-called 'mysteries' to the heretics, partaking together in damnation, rather than try to warn you of the spiritual peril you are in and urge you to return to the fold of the True Church? All right then.
Dear JG,  I am grateful for your concern.  It worries me that you fall under the 1983 condemnation of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece because you have fallen prey to the heresy of Old Calendarist Ecumenism. 
 

John Larocque

High Elder
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
529
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I came across this interesting bit in Bishop Eucharist Church. They were discussing the significance of Novatianist baptism. I've bolded an interesting sentence.

http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/episkopos1/kef2_2.htm

Fortunately, however, there is preserved a contemporary work by an anonymous African Bishop entitled De Rebaptismate, written probably around 256,305 which sets out in detail the arguments against Cyprian's views on baptism. This text expounds not so much the teaching on the Church as that on the sacraments, but it reveals the writer's ecclesiological principles. The writer accepts that there is only one Church outside which the Holy Spirit is not. But he maintains that baptism is performed by Christ at the invocation of His name. Starting from this premise, this writer holds that when the name of the Lord is invoked, even by those who are outside the Catholic Church, in the course of a baptism, the invocation operates in such a way that the baptism which thus takes place is authentic. Exactly what value such a baptism has is not defined by this author. It seems, however, that he too retains many doubts as to its efficacity, since he says that if someone thus baptized outside the Catholic Church dies a schismatic, in other words before he repents and returns to the Catholic Church, his baptism is of no significance for his salvation.306

These views can be taken as those of the Church of Rome and her Bishop Stephen because they come to the conclusion that the rebaptism of those returning to the Catholic Church is not required which is exactly as Stephen of Rome maintained.
Apparently this was the Latin Church view in the Cyprian era. Schismatic baptism is efficacious, but only if you return to the Catholic Church. If you update this by about 1700 years it translates to, "of course, we may recognize your non-Orthodox baptism... if you become Orthodox."
 

witega

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
1,617
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Jonathan Gress said:
Actually, Irish Hermit, what the American bishops produce ought to be of very grave concern to you in Europe.
As the good Father pointed out, the document you are pointing too was not produced or signed off on by American bishops. Indeed the index page on the SCOBA website for this document and others produced by the "The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation" explicitly states:
The members of national bilateral dialogue commissions are sanctioned by the hierarchies of the two churches to examine divisive issues, and to make recommendations regarding ways to overcome them. As such, the agreed statements are issued on the authority of the dialogue commission itself, and do not bind the authorities of either church.
On the other hand, this is the actual teaching of my bishops, synodically agreed upon and easily accessible on the official website:
Encyclical Letter of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America on Christian Unity and Ecumenism
http://www.oca.org/DOCencyclical.asp?SID=12&ID=5

For the Orthodox Church, therefore, the only possible unity for Christians and for the Christian Church is the unity of faith to which the apostles, saints and councils of the Church have witnessed, the faith to which they call all men for the sake of their salvation.
Genuine Christian unity is possible only where men are one in Christ and the Holy Spirit, fully united in the truth, love and holiness of God. This unity is possible only in the one Church which Christ founded, against which "the gates of hell shall not prevail." (Matthew 16:18) This unity is possible only in that Church which has preserved whole and unchanged the teachings of Christ and His apostles, prophets, martyrs and saints. This unity is possible only in that Church which continues to proclaim the revelation of God in its fullness, not only in its doctrines and morals, but also in the whole order of spiritual, sacramental and hierarchal church life as established in the apostolic Christian community.
Dearly beloved brothers and sisters, it is our duty as bishops of the Church and guardians of the apostolic faith to confess that the Orthodox Church is the one Church of Christ.
We further deny the possibility of fusing the hierarchal and sacramental structure of the Orthodox Church with a contradictory form of Christian confession, and we categorically reject the use of eucharistic communion and sacramental "intercommunion" as a means of achieving Christian unity. According to the Orthodox Faith, the sacraments and the liturgy of the Church, most specifically the Holy Eucharist, cannot be separated from the very being of the Church, which they exist to manifest. The sacraments are not devotions or psychological symbols. They are the manifestations of the essence of the Church as the Kingdom of God on earth. Outside the unity of faith in the one Church of Christ, which cannot be divided, there can be no sacramental communion and no liturgical concelebration.

Formal liturgical worship which involves the active participation of clergy and laity of different confessions is contrary to the canons of the Orthodox Church. Such liturgical celebration can only create confusion and scandal and serve to project a false impression of the Christian Faith and the nature of the unity which God has given to men in His Church, both to the Christian faithful and to the non-Christians of the world. According to the Orthodox Faith, such liturgical celebration is also a false presentation of men before the heavenly altar of God.
Or in other words, you have borne false witness against my hierarchs.
 
Top