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Divine Liturgy of St Germanus of Paris

Knee V

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http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?
 

ialmisry

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Knee V said:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?
IIRC, we have a thread somewhere here about it being celebrated in Iowa somewhere.

Ah, yes, here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33844.msg534512.html#msg534512
 

Shlomlokh

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I don't know too much other than that a ROCOR parish in Iowa uses it. They are supposedly of the Gallican Rite, but I haven't seen their other services outside of the DL. It does look impressive, sort of a mingling of Western and Eastern ideas.

In Christ,
Andrew

edit: Isa, beat me to it! :p
 

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I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized. I believe it is based upon the liturgy that St. John Maximovitch helped piece together for L'ECOF, which I've been told was intended to be a commingling of East and West.

Not my cup of tea, really.
 

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Knee V said:
this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.
Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?

Sleeper said:
I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized.
How was it Byzantinized?
 
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Sleeper said:
I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized. I believe it is based upon the liturgy that St. John Maximovitch helped piece together for L'ECOF, which I've been told was intended to be a commingling of East and West.

Not my cup of tea, really.
It certainly seems quite Byzantinised. Even the Prayer of the Cherubic Hymn ("none of those who are bound by the pleasures of the flesh ..."), a rather late addition to St John's Divine Liturgy, is in there.

I am completely ignorant of the history, but the inclusion of such prayers leads me to be skeptical of how accurate a "reconstruction" this liturgy is.

Anyone who knows better able to comment?
 

Sleeper

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GreekOrthodoxDude said:
Sleeper said:
I have an acquaintance attending church at that Iowa parish, and he really doesn't care for the liturgy because it's far too Byzantinized. I believe it is based upon the liturgy that St. John Maximovitch helped piece together for L'ECOF, which I've been told was intended to be a commingling of East and West.

Not my cup of tea, really.
It certainly seems quite Byzantinised. Even the Prayer of the Cherubic Hymn ("none of those who are bound by the pleasures of the flesh ..."), a rather late addition to St John's Divine Liturgy, is in there.

I am completely ignorant of the history, but the inclusion of such prayers leads me to be skeptical of how accurate a "reconstruction" this liturgy is.

Anyone who knows better able to comment?
A ROCOR priest told me the following on a WR group, "But now let me drop the bomb, for I know that there are many ANTI-ECOF folk in this group. The Orthodox Church of France, which was blessed and nurtured by St. John of Maximovitch and under the Romanian Patriarchate for 23 years, provides an example of a Liturgy and accompanying Offices which do all that we have been discussing, that being, a blend - a synthesis - of the Eastern & Western traditions. And this Liturgy is now blessed to be celebrated in WR parishes of ROCOR."

I'm not sure what the exact details are, but from what my acquaintance at the Iowa parish said, it seems about 70% of the liturgy is Eastern.
 

Knee V

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Alpo said:
Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?
At least from my observations, it seems that the more common WRO liturgies are simply modern Western liturgies that have been "corrected" to make them more Orthodox, but don't represent any actual liturgy that was ever used by an Western Christians anywhere.

This one, at least from the description given on the website that I provided, seems to be a relatively accurate re-creation of a liturgy that was used for several centuries in Gaul, having originated from immigrants from Greece and Asia minor.

To quote the website: "The Gallican Rite had its roots in the growth of the Church of Gaul during the third and fourth centuries, deriving its markedly Eastern character from the many settlers from Greece and Asia Minor moving into southern Gaul at the time. The rite continued to develop through the Merovingian period of French history, and Saint Germanus appears to have been the foremost influence in this process."

That would explain some of its "Eastern" flavor as well, without having to ascribe all of that to those who reconstructed it, as if they were trying to "easternize" a Western liturgy.

All of this is just my impression from what little information I have come across.
 

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I have heard that St. John blessed this reconstructed use of the Gallican rite as a sort of stepping stone for the church in France and that he never meant for it to be a permanent thing. I'll have to look this up later though as I could be mistaken.
 

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Knee V said:
Alpo said:
Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?
At least from my observations, it seems that the more common WRO liturgies are simply modern Western liturgies that have been "corrected" to make them more Orthodox, but don't represent any actual liturgy that was ever used by an Western Christians anywhere.
Quite incorrect. The Rite of St. Gregory is the liturgy that has been at the heart of Western European Christianity since the time of St. Gregory. The Rite of St. Tikhon is the same Gregorian liturgy, with certain elements from the Book of Common Prayer tradition interwoven into it, which itself goes back half a millennium. The Sarum Rite, which is used by many in ROCOR, is but another Gregorian Use that goes back even farther, almost 1,000 years. These are, without question, the most widely used liturgies in Western Orthodoxy, and they have been used for centuries upon centuries.
 

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Sleeper said:
Knee V said:
Alpo said:
Care to explain why it seems different from other versions of WR?
At least from my observations, it seems that the more common WRO liturgies are simply modern Western liturgies that have been "corrected" to make them more Orthodox, but don't represent any actual liturgy that was ever used by an Western Christians anywhere.
Quite incorrect. The Rite of St. Gregory is the liturgy that has been at the heart of Western European Christianity since the time of St. Gregory. The Rite of St. Tikhon is the same Gregorian liturgy, with certain elements from the Book of Common Prayer tradition interwoven into it, which itself goes back half a millennium. The Sarum Rite, which is used by many in ROCOR, is but another Gregorian Use that goes back even farther, almost 1,000 years. These are, without question, the most widely used liturgies in Western Orthodoxy, and they have been used for centuries upon centuries.
But those are both post-schism liturgies, correct? The benefit of the St. Germanus liturgy is that is of pre-schism origin.
 

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The Gregorian Rite goes all the way back to the 6th century, to St Gregory the Great, for whom it is named. The Tikhonian Rite is the same, with certain interpolations from the Scottish liturgical tradition, so it has "more" post-Schism elements, though both liturgies have some, being the living rites that they are. They both simply embody the Western Rite as it has existed throughout time, from the earliest centuries to the present day.
 

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From what I've heard, the liturgy of St. Gregory is a modification of the Tridentine mass, with the filioque removed and a Byzantine epiclesis added.

 

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Does anyone knwo anything about the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine ?
 

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Knee V said:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?
I am not a liturgical scholar, not in the slightest, but we have a hieromonk
in our Church in Australia who writes that he is a liturgical scholar and he
proffers his assessment of this Liturgy:

"I was recently sent a copy of a Liturgy that purports to be an English
translation of the Liturgy that the OCF introduced under Archbishop John
Maximovitch. (I understand that the sender (who was not OCF) calls it
"The Liturgy of St. Germanus of Paris". From what I've seen of the
Liturgy, (and I haven't had time to other than cursorily glance at it)
it seems to be somewhat of a latter-day hybrid, a pastiche, based on an
ancient description, and engineered to attract Byzantine liturgists into
thinking that it is genuine. It (ritually at least) appears to contain a
high percentage of modern Byzantine interpolation. I have no idea what
ceremonial is used with it - but I believe that modern-style Byzantine
vestments are often worn. Since they did not exist in the first half of
the first millennium, I don't see how even the most wishful thinking can
make them "Celtic" - any more than the wishful thinking which seems to
emanate from some twentieth century Iona-related sources can make the
early Celts some sort of fourth century presbyterians.

"Apart from being bad English - of no grace, it tells me that someone did
a great job of selling the Russians a bill of goods. I wouldn't defend
that Liturgy and I wouldn't use it. In that, I am agreed with Abbot
Silvano - it is a pastiche - put together in my view to placate the
Russians and make them think that the Gallican Liturgy was more
Byzantine than it ever was."
 

Irish Hermit

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Ortho_cat said:
Does anyone knwo anything about the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine ?
The same liturgical scholar, Hieromonk Michael Mansbridge-Wood, sees the the Lorrha-Stowe Missal as a form of the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine (Ephesine liturgy), being the form of liturgy which came into the British Isles.  There are websites where he speaks of this but, IIRC, no more than tantalising snippets.
 

Michał

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Ortho_cat said:
Does anyone knwo anything about the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine ?
Here is its text in English translation: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/liturgy-iii/
 
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Sleeper said:
I'm not sure what the exact details are, but from what my acquaintance at the Iowa parish said, it seems about 70% of the liturgy is Eastern.
If I may be forgiven for saying so, this is a gross exaggeration.

The structure, rubrics, as well as most of the fixed and variable prayers and hymns, may be found either in Gallican sources (whether manuscripts or descriptive texts, or related rites such as the Mozarabic rite).  Yes, there is some some eastern influence.  However, given the fact that we know that the pre-schism Gallican rite came under heavy eastern influence, this should come as no surprise.  Apart from that, yes, there have been some supplementations from current Byzantine texts.  Howeber, anybody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the Gallican and Byzantine rites, casting an eye over the text of the Liturgy of St Germanus, could see that these account for less than 10% of the restored Gallican Mass.  Where your friend's 70% comes from is a mystery.

Viewing the videos online of some of the services from the churches that regularly use this rite, yes, it is clear that much of the music is western plainsong which has been harmonised, and some of it is recognisable as adapted Greek or Russian chant.  However, this is purely due to the music used being largely that of Maxim Kovalevsky, who chose to compose in this style.  If this is considered to be problematic, there is absolutely nothing to stop a parish or mission that uses these services from composing their own music, as many parishes do. 

However, in the grand scheme of things, it seemsinfinitely more sensible for them to get on with the business of seeking to live an Orthodox life and spreading the good news of Christ rather than worry that some people who have no intention of joining their parishes anyway might think that their worship isn't western enough.
 
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Esteemed sisters and brothers,

Would any of you happen to know where I might be able to access the full set of Mass propers for the Gallican Rite?  If so, I'd be grateful for any direction or assistance.

Many thanks.
 

wgw

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Subdeacon Michael said:
Esteemed sisters and brothers,

Would any of you happen to know where I might be able to access the full set of Mass propers for the Gallican Rite?  If so, I'd be grateful for any direction or assistance.

Many thanks.
The Gallican Rite and the Old Roman Rite do not really survive in an intact form.  Some scholars say the Mozarabic is closest to the old Gallican Rite, others say the Dominican and Carthusian Rites are more Gallican with less Romanization.
 
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wgw said:
Subdeacon Michael said:
Esteemed sisters and brothers,

Would any of you happen to know where I might be able to access the full set of Mass propers for the Gallican Rite?  If so, I'd be grateful for any direction or assistance.

Many thanks.
The Gallican Rite and the Old Roman Rite do not really survive in an intact form.  Some scholars say the Mozarabic is closest to the old Gallican Rite, others say the Dominican and Carthusian Rites are more Gallican with less Romanization.
Thank you for this, wgw.  I apologise for my lack of clarity and any resulting misunderstanding.

I'm aware of the lack of extant sources for the complete ancient propers; I was referring to the form as used in Orthodox monasteries and parishes today.  The full texts are available in French, and I can use Google Translate and then tidy the results into a form of recognisable English.  However, if the translation work has already been done, it would be helpful if somebody could direct me to where I might be able to access the fruit of this labour.

Many thanks.
 

RaphaCam

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wgw said:
Subdeacon Michael said:
Esteemed sisters and brothers,

Would any of you happen to know where I might be able to access the full set of Mass propers for the Gallican Rite?  If so, I'd be grateful for any direction or assistance.

Many thanks.
The Gallican Rite and the Old Roman Rite do not really survive in an intact form.  Some scholars say the Mozarabic is closest to the old Gallican Rite, others say the Dominican and Carthusian Rites are more Gallican with less Romanization.
What do we know about the Old Roman Rite?
 
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Here are some observations that I made earlier this year on first experiencing the Mass of St Germanus.  I apologise that this is text-heavy: I was at a geographically isolated monastery with limited internet access.  The inclusion of pictures was not really an option.
 

Porter ODoran

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Irish Hermit said:
Knee V said:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?
I am not a liturgical scholar, not in the slightest, but we have a hieromonk
in our Church in Australia who writes that he is a liturgical scholar and he
proffers his assessment of this Liturgy:

"I was recently sent a copy of a Liturgy that purports to be an English
translation of the Liturgy that the OCF introduced under Archbishop John
Maximovitch. (I understand that the sender (who was not OCF) calls it
"The Liturgy of St. Germanus of Paris". From what I've seen of the
Liturgy, (and I haven't had time to other than cursorily glance at it)
it seems to be somewhat of a latter-day hybrid, a pastiche, based on an
ancient description, and engineered to attract Byzantine liturgists into
thinking that it is genuine. It (ritually at least) appears to contain a
high percentage of modern Byzantine interpolation. I have no idea what
ceremonial is used with it - but I believe that modern-style Byzantine
vestments are often worn. Since they did not exist in the first half of
the first millennium, I don't see how even the most wishful thinking can
make them "Celtic" - any more than the wishful thinking which seems to
emanate from some twentieth century Iona-related sources can make the
early Celts some sort of fourth century presbyterians.

"Apart from being bad English - of no grace, it tells me that someone did
a great job of selling the Russians a bill of goods. I wouldn't defend
that Liturgy and I wouldn't use it. In that, I am agreed with Abbot
Silvano - it is a pastiche - put together in my view to placate the
Russians and make them think that the Gallican Liturgy was more
Byzantine than it ever was."
This is some thunderous certainty from someone who himself says he was able to give the rite only a cursory glance.
 
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Porter ODoran said:
Irish Hermit said:
Knee V said:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?

It seems as though this person had already
I am not a liturgical scholar, not in the slightest, but we have a hieromonk
in our Church in Australia who writes that he is a liturgical scholar and he
proffers his assessment of this Liturgy:

"I was recently sent a copy of a Liturgy that purports to be an English
translation of the Liturgy that the OCF introduced under Archbishop John
Maximovitch. (I understand that the sender (who was not OCF) calls it
"The Liturgy of St. Germanus of Paris". From what I've seen of the
Liturgy, (and I haven't had time to other than cursorily glance at it)
it seems to be somewhat of a latter-day hybrid, a pastiche, based on an
ancient description, and engineered to attract Byzantine liturgists into
thinking that it is genuine. It (ritually at least) appears to contain a
high percentage of modern Byzantine interpolation. I have no idea what
ceremonial is used with it - but I believe that modern-style Byzantine
vestments are often worn. Since they did not exist in the first half of
the first millennium, I don't see how even the most wishful thinking can
make them "Celtic" - any more than the wishful thinking which seems to
emanate from some twentieth century Iona-related sources can make the
early Celts some sort of fourth century presbyterians.

"Apart from being bad English - of no grace, it tells me that someone did
a great job of selling the Russians a bill of goods. I wouldn't defend
that Liturgy and I wouldn't use it. In that, I am agreed with Abbot
Silvano - it is a pastiche - put together in my view to placate the
Russians and make them think that the Gallican Liturgy was more
Byzantine than it ever was."
This is some thunderous certainty from someone who himself says he was able to give the rite only a cursory glance.
Precisely!  You make a very astute observation.

It sounds as though this priestmonk had made some very firm conclusions before even looking at it properly, let alone experiencing it.  I would rather place my trust in the judgement of the saints who compiled it, those scholars who have examined it thoroughly, and those faithful who worship God through it every day and week.

St John of Saint-Denis was the principal compiler of this restored Gallican Mass, with some guidance and direction from St John the Wonderworker.  I understand that there is some debate over the authenticity of the authorship of the Letters of St Germanus - a primary source used in the reconstruction - and that this is sometimes used to discredit the Mass of St Germanus.  My response to this is simply "So what?"

If the letters are genuinely by the hand of St Germanus, then we have a detailed record of the Orthodox Liturgy as used by the Gauls in 6th-century Paris directly from one of the great saints, monastics, and liturgical scholars of the time.  If they are not by his own hand, we still have exactly the same information from somebody who was clearly very pious and liturgically astute.  One theory is that the letters were written in around the 7th century, after the repose of St Germanus.  Knowing how women and their contributions to church life have been viewed over the centuries, I would not be surprised to learn that it was perhaps a pious and learned nun who penned these letters, and that it was only by attaching the name of a male cleric that they would have been given any credibility at that time and in that culture.  The use of a saint's name is perhaps the only reason that we still have this valuable historical record today.

My bishop has written a detailed examination of this Mass and he graciously gave me a copy when I last visited his monastery.  It is only available in French so my comprehension is limited but I have sufficient French to understand the bulk of it, and it is very clear that, while some missing elements have been sensitively supplemented by eastern sources, pastiche is a gross exaggeration.  These supplementations are minimal and, in context, actually flow seamlessly and pray well.

It must also be borne in mind that some elements of this Mass which are recognisable as eastern/Byzantine in origin (such as the singing of the Trisagion shortly after the entrance of the clergy, for instance) are there, not because they were inserted in the 20th century, but rather because the Gallican Mass was anciently influenced by a number of eastern elements.  That is to say that some of the supposedly eastern elements were already there in 6th-century Paris, freely and regularly prayed as part of ancient western Orthodoxy.

Additionally, somebody familiar with the Roman rite might look at this restored Gallican Mass and see striking differences, and might perhaps conclude that these are due to eastern insertions, when in fact many of them are due to the fact that the Gallican Mass was always different from the Roman Mass in a number of ways that made it distinctly part of the Gaelic/Celtic family of rites.  It is no less western simply because it isn't Roman.

As for one of the other criticisms, yes, I have seen footage on YouTube of Fr Allyne/Lev Smith serving this Liturgy in Byzantine vestments.  This seems to be a peculiarity of that one parish and we mustn't judge them for it.  I know that they do not have their own building and many mission parishes have limited resources.  It might be that they simply do not have the resources yet to purchase full sets of western vestments, and that fellow Orthodox clergy might have assisted by giving what vestments they had spare.  This is no reflection on the legitimacy of the rite that they serve.
 
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I forgot to say that one criticism that I have heard of the Mass of St Germanus applies only to its pontifical form, and it is the blessing of the people by the bishop using the trikiri and dikiri, as well as the use of the eagle mat.

These elements are obviously Byzantine in origin but it is quite clear that Orthodoxy no longer considers these things to be unique to the Byzantine Rite, for they have cross-fertilised other rites and are now seen as universal for bishops within Eastern Orthodoxy.

As evidence, I offer the occasional celebration of the Jerusalem Liturgy of St James and the Egyptian Liturgy of St Mark. The trikiri and dikiri, as well as the eagle mat, would have been completely alien to the people who worshipped according to these rites back when they were in regular use.  Yet today, when bishops serve these Liturgies in Eastern Orthodox churches, do they not stand on the eagle mat and bless the people with the trikiri and dikiri?  Yes, they do.  It is very clear that these things are no longer seen as uniquely Byzantine but have come to be adopted as standard elements of the episcopal insignia, regardless of the rite being celebrated.

If critics are going to cite their use to call the authenticity of the restored Gallican Mass into question, then they should also criticise their use in the Jerusalem Liturgy and the Egyptian Liturgy, but they do not.  One has to wonder, then, what their true motives are for criticising their use only in the Western Liturgy.
 

Iconodule

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Is the Liturgy of Saint Mark still celebrated in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria?
 
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Iconodule said:
Is the Liturgy of Saint Mark still celebrated in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria?
Possibly.  I don't know.  I know it is permitted in ROCOR on the feast of St Mark, subject to the blessing of the ruling bishop, and that it has been served in recent years by Bishop Jerome.
 

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Knee V said:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?

That link doesn't work here.
 
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juliogb said:
Knee V said:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/the_divine_liturgy_of_saint_germanus.htm

I was introduced to this liturgy today. I've had some reservations toward other WR liturgies that I've encountered, but this one strikes me very differently, and I tend to have some rather positive inclinations toward it. I rather like it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this liturgy or know more about it?

That link doesn't work here.
It's a link to the old website of the Orthodox Church of France, which has since changed.

Try this instead.
 

juliogb

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I really like those ancient liturgies reconstruction, I'd like to see some more rites back again being offered, like the mozarabic or this gallican one that is new to me.
 
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Here are some excerpts from the patronal feast at the parish of Our Lady & St Thiebault in Gorze, France, where the Mass of St Germanus is served.  There are many other treats on that DailyMotion channel.
 

Rohzek

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Just to throw this out there, but if you are interested in some scholarship on the Gallican liturgies, I'd highly recommend the work of Yitzhak Hen, especially his The Royal Patronage of Liturgy in Frankish Gaul: To the Death of Charles the Bald (877).
 
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