Do Muslims worship the same God as do Jews and Trinitarian Christians?

[Maria]

http://taylormarshall.com/2014/08/muslims-worship-god-christians.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=muslims-worship-god-christians&utm_source=Taylor+Marshall%27s+Updates&utm_campaign=1ccf64a886-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_64accbc3c7-1ccf64a886-59166997

Dr.  Taylor Marshall tackles a dilemma in the Roman Catholic Church, which seems to say that Christian, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God as did Abraham.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to teach that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. Do you agree or disagree, and what are your reasons?

 

[biro]

I am not sure.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

Besides denying the Holy Trinity, the teachings of the Islamic Allah have almost nothing in common with the teachings of Christ.

Christ is True God, and if someone teaches something different from His teachings, than it is not from God.

Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing....or wolves in wolves' clothing, for that matter.

 

[Porter ODoran]

There is only one God.

Remember too that he is the lover of all mankind. False teachers will answer for their teaching, but God does not change and mankind's nature does not vary (I am its chief sinner).

 

[liefern]

There is only one god, but there are also false gods. The gods of the gentiles are devils. I don't even know what the challenge could be.  :laugh: What could Psalm 95 mean, if not just that? Pandering to people doesn't help them, and eventually we will conform to our own pandering.

 

[Keble]

One starts to wander out into some of the more abstruse territories of philosophy in this one, starting with the word "same". It's hard to tell the difference between "both worship the same object, one badly" and "one worships something which doesn't exist." It's not a good idea to wander out into "how accurate does your theology have to be to be worshipping the True God?"

 

[genesisone]

This question has come up before. But in light of current events, it's understandable why we might want to revisit it.

I answered "No". However, my position from before has not changed. I do believe there are good-hearted Muslims who seek to worship the one true God.

 

[Godspell]

http://taylormarshall.com/2014/08/muslims-worship-god-christians.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=muslims-worship-god-christians&utm_source=Taylor+Marshall%27s+Updates&utm_campaign=1ccf64a886-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_64accbc3c7-1ccf64a886-59166997

Dr.  Taylor Marshall tackles a dilemma in the Roman Catholic Church, which seems to say that Christian, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God as did Abraham.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to teach that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. Do you agree or disagree, and what are your reasons?

Yes and no. IMO heresy is a sin akin to the original sin. The next generation is born with the consequence but not the guilt. In Islam's case, I do think that Muhammad's assertion that Christ was not divine was a heresy akin to Arianism, but the descendants who come from that faith believing that apostasy will cause them to be damned and therefore do not move outside of that faith will still be credited for their good works and I trust them to God's grace.

Denial that Christ is our Lord and Savior, however, is no minor theological difference.

 

[liefern]

“Do not accept any heretical dogma on the pretext of love.” (St. John Chrysostom)

I believe that the argument proposing that they worship the same god is a fumbling attempt at loving them, as if insisting on the truth is an act of hate. The more we propose to others a heretical dogma, the sooner we will end up accepting it ourselves.

 

[Porter ODoran]

If a Muslim or Jew were an Orthodox Christian, he could be guilty of heresy. Think about what you folks are trying to hammer into a round hole here. (Of course the original question is pretty silly in its wording too.)

 

[Maria]

If a Muslim or Jew were an Orthodox Christian, he could be guilty of heresy. Think about what you folks are trying to hammer into a round hole here. (Of course the original question is pretty silly in its wording too.)

Do you, Porter ODoran, think that those Muslims who sincerely believe that "God" will reward them with 70 virgins in Paradise when they commit suicide by blowing up Christians and Jews
are worshiping the same "God" as we do?

Yes, one could say that those suicides are only a tiny minority.

Okay, then what do you think about ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity and who declare that the god of Islam is a devil? I have met many Muslim converts to Orthodox Christianity who tell me that they had devilish nightmares before their exorcism, Holy Baptism, and Chrismation into Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[Porter ODoran]

You flatter me by singling me out. Well, there are demons, certainly, but there is only one God.

 

[Porter ODoran]

(And most of us serve demons, to whatever extent; certainly I, the chief sinner.)

 

[Maria]

You flatter me by singling me out. Well, there are demons, certainly, but there is only one God.

Again, Porter ODoran, are the Muslims worshiping demons or the one True God?

Or is it a mixed bag, with some Muslims worshiping demons while the rest worship the One True God?

 

[Porter ODoran]

Perhaps you are hoping to ask whether some Muslim or Jew or other is doing what God wants or what the Evil One wants.

 

[Godspell]

If a Muslim or Jew were an Orthodox Christian, he could be guilty of heresy. Think about what you folks are trying to hammer into a round hole here. (Of course the original question is pretty silly in its wording too.)

Do you, Porter ODoran, think that those Muslims who sincerely believe that "God" will reward them with 70 virgins in Paradise when they commit suicide by blowing up Christians and Jews
are worshiping the same "God" as we do?

Yes, one could say that those suicides are only a tiny minority.

Okay, then what do you think about ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity and who declare that the god of Islam is a devil? I have met many Muslim converts to Orthodox Christianity who tell me that they had devilish nightmares before their exorcism, Holy Baptism, and Chrismation into Holy Orthodoxy.

To be sure, the 70 virgins is not in the Koran or the Hadith. It is a bit like citing the book of Enoch, its not a well accepted text in the Islamic faith.

 

[Porter ODoran]

If a Muslim or Jew were an Orthodox Christian, he could be guilty of heresy. Think about what you folks are trying to hammer into a round hole here. (Of course the original question is pretty silly in its wording too.)

Do you, Porter ODoran, think that those Muslims who sincerely believe that "God" will reward them with 70 virgins in Paradise when they commit suicide by blowing up Christians and Jews
are worshiping the same "God" as we do?

Yes, one could say that those suicides are only a tiny minority.

Okay, then what do you think about ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity and who declare that the god of Islam is a devil? I have met many Muslim converts to Orthodox Christianity who tell me that they had devilish nightmares before their exorcism, Holy Baptism, and Chrismation into Holy Orthodoxy.

To be sure, the 70 virgins is not in the Koran or the Hadith. It is a bit like citing the book of Enoch, its not a well accepted text in the Islamic faith.

I appreciate the spirit of what you're saying, and I don't know anything about hadith, but in my Qur'an the afterlife virgins show up at least in 37:48f, 38:52, 52:20, and 56:35ff.

 

[Maria]

(And most of us serve demons, to whatever extent; certainly I, the chief sinner.)

Sounds like you have been reading the life of (St.) Silouan of Mt. Athos.

[His sayings to pray for the devil that the devil may be converted bother me.]

 

[orthonorm]

(And most of us serve demons, to whatever extent; certainly I, the chief sinner.)

Sounds like you have been reading the life of (St.) Silouan of Mt. Athos.

[His sayings to pray for the devil that the devil may be converted bother me.]

Hey, someone has to enjoy the fruit of the labors of those who work among us.

 

[orthonorm]

Yes.

Well, not around here at times, people are a little iffy when it comes to taking the God of Abraham seriously.

 

[Keble]

Do you, Porter ODoran, think that those Muslims who sincerely believe that "God" will reward them with 70 virgins in Paradise when they commit suicide by blowing up Christians and Jews are worshiping the same "God" as we do?

The question you should contemplate first, Maria, is whether all the things that you think about God or say about God which happen to be wrong mean that you are worshipping the wrong God.

 

[Maria]

Do you, Porter ODoran, think that those Muslims who sincerely believe that "God" will reward them with 70 virgins in Paradise when they commit suicide by blowing up Christians and Jews are worshiping the same "God" as we do?

The question you should contemplate first, Maria, is whether all the things that you think about God or say about God which happen to be wrong mean that you are worshipping the wrong God.

Reword that Keble.

Every sin you commit shows that you are not honoring God and His Commandments, and that you have failed to keep God first in your life.

Nevertheless, we all are sinners, otherwise we both would not have that Green Meatball by our names.  :laugh:

 

[Godspell]

If a Muslim or Jew were an Orthodox Christian, he could be guilty of heresy. Think about what you folks are trying to hammer into a round hole here. (Of course the original question is pretty silly in its wording too.)

Do you, Porter ODoran, think that those Muslims who sincerely believe that "God" will reward them with 70 virgins in Paradise when they commit suicide by blowing up Christians and Jews
are worshiping the same "God" as we do?

Yes, one could say that those suicides are only a tiny minority.

Okay, then what do you think about ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity and who declare that the god of Islam is a devil? I have met many Muslim converts to Orthodox Christianity who tell me that they had devilish nightmares before their exorcism, Holy Baptism, and Chrismation into Holy Orthodoxy.

To be sure, the 70 virgins is not in the Koran or the Hadith. It is a bit like citing the book of Enoch, its not a well accepted text in the Islamic faith.

I appreciate the spirit of what you're saying, and I don't know anything about hadith, but in my Qur'an the afterlife virgins show up at least in 37:48f, 38:52, 52:20, and 56:35ff.

The Hadith I believe are the sayings of Muhammad. Though to be fair I admit I haven't done an extensive study of the Koran. My statement echoed that of a teacher I had whom I found reliable. Most Muslims I've met are peaceful and loving so I've judged them by that.

To be fair not all Protestants are from the KKK, not all Catholics are molesters and not all Muslims are terrorists. These are really just a fraction of the people of those faiths. I've, however, heard minimal negative activity coming from avowed Orthodox, which makes me think....

 

[Porter ODoran]

I think the issue you're thinking of, Godspell, isn't whether Islam promises the faithful the company of virgins in heaven (although a few apologists are beginning to sophisticate this), but whether they are promised to suicide-martyrs (something very, very few Muslims believe). As for the "nature of Muslims," that's rather an odd thing to expect to categorize about a few billion people in all corners of the earth. I've had Indian neighbors and Pakistani and Guyanan coworkers who were Muslims and warm and loving family-minded people, but I could hardly extrapolate from a few local individuals to make any statements about hordes of others worldwide.

 

[Alpo]

IIRC no one in the first millenium denied the idea that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. The opposite idea was invented in the post-schismatic West.

 

[sakura95]

"Allah" as in Islam is not Trinatarian in nature and exists as a single "person".

The God that Christians profess is Triune and consists of three "persons" sharing a singular Divine Essence.

Given the two have differing properties, "Allah" as in Islam is not the same as the Triune God of Christianity and hence, Muslims do not worship the same God as Christians. The closest they can profess is to worship the same God as the Jews.

 

[vamrat]

There is only one God, and John the Baptist is His prophet.

 

[Maria]

There is only one God, and John the Baptist is His prophet.

Good response, but most Muslims would probably take offense for defiling their creed.

 

[minasoliman]

Never mind the Trinity.  There is an aspect of divinity in Islam that is not agreeable with Orthodox Christian theology.  Islam (at least most Muslims, except maybe Sufis) have adopted a numerical infinity of the divine nature that would be unable to dwell in or to be participative to humanity.  That is why they are unable to believe in the incarnation.  Allah is there and I am here, and the two shall never meet or enjoy each other.  This is a form of theistic atheism at best, or borderline deism.  There is no way there can be communion with God in Islam or to share in His divine nature.  The same can also be said of some extreme Protestant groups like Calvinists, who tend to believe in a Nestorian form of Christ and reject deification.

So no, ultimately, not even close to the same God.  We may agree with some concepts, but we are not able to agree with everything on the divine nature, let alone on the Holy Trinity.

 

[Maria]

Never mind the Trinity.  There is an aspect of divinity in Islam that is not agreeable with Orthodox Christian theology.  Islam (at least most Muslims, except maybe Sufis) have adopted a numerical infinity of the divine nature that would be unable to dwell in or to be participative to humanity.  That is why they are unable to believe in the incarnation.  Allah is there and I am here, and the two shall never meet or enjoy each other.  This is a form of theistic atheism at best, or borderline deism.  There is no way there can be communion with God in Islam or to share in His divine nature.  The same can also be said of some extreme Protestant groups like Calvinists, who tend to believe in a Nestorian form of Christ and reject deification.

So no, ultimately, not even close to the same God.  We may agree with some concepts, but we are not able to agree with everything on the divine nature, let alone on the Holy Trinity.

Awesome post, Mina. Thanks for this contribution.

So, why then, do most Orthodox jurisdictions accept a Calvinistic form of Baptism?  If you wish, I could start a new thread on Baptism, but this is related. Most if not all of the hierarchs in communion with the EP and the MP accept the baptism of Calvinists and almost all Protestants as a "Trinitarian" baptism. Yes, oneness Pentecostals, certain Churches of God or Churches of Christ, the JWs and the Mormons are only received through Holy Baptism.

 

[Cyrillic]

I suppose that they (try to) worship the same God, although their beliefs about Him are almost as wrong as they get.

 

[JamesR]

Perhaps a better question is do we worship the same God as Muslims, Jews, and other Trinitarian Christians?

Before we attempt to determine whether or not they worship the same God as us, we need to determine just exactly what God we worship. Given the many disagreements within Orthodoxy and different opinions and theologies of internet Orthodoxy and to some degree (but not nearly as much) in real-life Orthodoxy, it's not as clearcut as many would like to make it. Do "schismatic" Orthodox and "world" Orthodox worship the same God? Do I worship the same God (when I'm not rebelling against Him) as say Isa or Maria?

Anyhoo, I suppose one could argue that a God in the Abrahamic concept of a Creator is by default the same God since they are all viewed as the Creator. You could define God as the Creator and the Abrahamic religions as merely being details about this Creator. The problem is that many people--especially Protestants--are really afraid to get into the details of just what the Abrahamic God is.

On the other hand, St. John politically incorrectly says in his epistle that:

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either...

This, at first glance, would clearly suggest that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God or have the same God as us since they deny the Son of God. I'd also add that one could argue that when you have incorrect doctrines and ideas about God, then you aren't really worshipping God but are merely worshipping an intellectual idol of God in your mind. But that begs the question: what is God? How do we define God? When do we draw the line between the definition of God and mere predicates about God? Or does such a thing even exist? Or is the former defined precisely by the latter?

I'm personally very uncertain. And I think that Jews and Muslims are as well. I've met many Muslims who believe that we share the same God, whereas others vehemently believe that we share different Gods, some even go as far as to call us polytheists. So yes, there is some confusion within the Islamic community as well in regards to this question.

The only ones I've seen who seem consistent are Jews who, from what I've gathered, seem to believe that neither Christians nor Muslims worship the same God as them.

 

[JamesR]

Do you...think that those Muslims who sincerely believe that "God" will reward them with 70 virgins in Paradise when they commit suicide by blowing up Christians and Jews are worshiping the same "God" as we do?

Well if it were my God, I'd ask for at least 102 virgins, but to each his own...In any case, I think the virgins thing is somewhat of a myth apocryphal semi-true thing of Islam, kinda like the book of Enoch and Toll Houses/After Death speculation we have. To be fair though, that doesn't excuse the fact that their rules regarding sexual morality are vastly different from ours. But again, I think that comes down to whether or not these differences really define who God is or if they are merely predicates about God that may or may not be true.

First thing we gotta do is define who God really is and what we really believe Him to be.

Okay, then what do you think about ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity and who declare that the god of Islam is a devil? I have met many Muslim converts to Orthodox Christianity who tell me that they had devilish nightmares before their exorcism, Holy Baptism, and Chrismation into Holy Orthodoxy.

I'd personally take anything anecdotal like this with a grain of salt because many Christians before converting to Hinduism or another non-Christian religion for example have reported the same thing, and I'd think that any form of Christianity is (at least in most cases) probably better than an entirely non-Christian religion. Same can be said for Orthodox and Catholic people who've converted to Protestantism (which I'd consider to be worse than the former two). If we were to believe this in every case, we'd have to conclude that Orthodoxy is from the devil and that Evangelical Protestantism is the true faith or whatever.

 

[LBK]

Most if not all of the hierarchs in communion with the EP and the MP accept the baptism of Calvinists and almost all Protestants as a "Trinitarian" baptism.

You omit a crucial detail: The heterodox baptism is not accepted "as is", but is corrected and completed by chrismation and/or baptism. Please do not misrepresent longstanding Church practice.  olice:

Saint Alexandra the Empress and Passion-bearer, and her sister New-martyr Elizabeth the Grand Duchess, were Lutherans received into the Orthodox Church by chrismation.

 

[minasoliman]

Never mind the Trinity.  There is an aspect of divinity in Islam that is not agreeable with Orthodox Christian theology.  Islam (at least most Muslims, except maybe Sufis) have adopted a numerical infinity of the divine nature that would be unable to dwell in or to be participative to humanity.  That is why they are unable to believe in the incarnation.  Allah is there and I am here, and the two shall never meet or enjoy each other.  This is a form of theistic atheism at best, or borderline deism.  There is no way there can be communion with God in Islam or to share in His divine nature.  The same can also be said of some extreme Protestant groups like Calvinists, who tend to believe in a Nestorian form of Christ and reject deification.

So no, ultimately, not even close to the same God.  We may agree with some concepts, but we are not able to agree with everything on the divine nature, let alone on the Holy Trinity.

Awesome post, Mina. Thanks for this contribution.

So, why then, do most Orthodox jurisdictions accept a Calvinistic form of Baptism?  If you wish, I could start a new thread on Baptism, but this is related. Most if not all of the hierarchs in communion with the EP and the MP accept the baptism of Calvinists and almost all Protestants as a "Trinitarian" baptism. Yes, oneness Pentecostals, certain Churches of God or Churches of Christ, the JWs and the Mormons are only received through Holy Baptism.

Well, the Assyrian Church of the East has been historically received by both OOs and EOs by confession of faith (they are a fully sacramental Church, unlike many Protestants).  No baptism or chrismation was done.  Therefore, the practice of chrismating Calvinists if they received a Trinitarian baptism is something that seems to have some precedence in Church canons.

 

[minasoliman]

Well if it were my God, I'd ask for at least 102 virgins, but to each his own...In any case, I think the virgins thing is somewhat of a myth apocryphal semi-true thing of Islam, kinda like the book of Enoch and Toll Houses/After Death speculation we have.

Some people think it's a mistranslation from very primitive and original Quranic texts.

 

[Porter ODoran]

Well if it were my God, I'd ask for at least 102 virgins, but to each his own...In any case, I think the virgins thing is somewhat of a myth apocryphal semi-true thing of Islam, kinda like the book of Enoch and Toll Houses/After Death speculation we have.

Some people think it's a mistranslation from very primitive and original Quranic texts.

Except that only one passage says "hur," the several others describe the women in detailed terms. See my references above.

 

[minasoliman]

My guess is that the other verses did not appear until much later if it can be studied in Quranic manuscripts.  This pretty much means that once it was assumed to be "virgins", the other verses were added to reinforce this concept.

 

[Godspell]

Perhaps a better question is do we worship the same God as Muslims, Jews, and other Trinitarian Christians?

Before we attempt to determine whether or not they worship the same God as us, we need to determine just exactly what God we worship. Given the many disagreements within Orthodoxy and different opinions and theologies of internet Orthodoxy and to some degree (but not nearly as much) in real-life Orthodoxy, it's not as clearcut as many would like to make it. Do "schismatic" Orthodox and "world" Orthodox worship the same God? Do I worship the same God (when I'm not rebelling against Him) as say Isa or Maria?

Anyhoo, I suppose one could argue that a God in the Abrahamic concept of a Creator is by default the same God since they are all viewed as the Creator. You could define God as the Creator and the Abrahamic religions as merely being details about this Creator. The problem is that many people--especially Protestants--are really afraid to get into the details of just what the Abrahamic God is.

On the other hand, St. John politically incorrectly says in his epistle that:

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either...

This, at first glance, would clearly suggest that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God or have the same God as us since they deny the Son of God. I'd also add that one could argue that when you have incorrect doctrines and ideas about God, then you aren't really worshipping God but are merely worshipping an intellectual idol of God in your mind. But that begs the question: what is God? How do we define God? When do we draw the line between the definition of God and mere predicates about God? Or does such a thing even exist? Or is the former defined precisely by the latter?

I'm personally very uncertain. And I think that Jews and Muslims are as well. I've met many Muslims who believe that we share the same God, whereas others vehemently believe that we share different Gods, some even go as far as to call us polytheists. So yes, there is some confusion within the Islamic community as well in regards to this question.

The only ones I've seen who seem consistent are Jews who, from what I've gathered, seem to believe that neither Christians nor Muslims worship the same God as them.

I picked up a Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlet today--and the JW say Jesus was not God, but Michael the Archangel--and anyways, they think that Jesus was crucified on a stake, not a cross--and claim the cross is pagan. My wife, who is former LDS, also said that the LDS doesn't use crosses in worship because they celebrate Christ's life not death. And of course Muslims don't use the cross. I've though this rather intriguing that all the intense heresies literally deny the cross.

 

[minasoliman]

One time an Indian Orthodox priest shared with us a story where he was passing a particular checkpoint in a country (which I will keep nameless to avoid an altercation of discussion ), and the guard told him to put the Cross inside his cloak. He was confused and asked why.  The guard, being rude replied, "because I said so."  So, the priest put the cross in his cloak and was allowed to be passed.  Then he said, "now I know two people who are afraid of the Cross".