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Do Muslims worship the same God as do Jews and Trinitarian Christians?

Do Muslims worship the same God as do Jews and Trinitarian Christians?

  • No.

    Votes: 34 61.8%
  • No. Although they worship the same God as do the Jews, they are not Trinitarian.

    Votes: 5 9.1%
  • Don't know. God knows.

    Votes: 6 10.9%
  • Possibly. It is a mystery beyond my pay check.

    Votes: 3 5.5%
  • Yes, they do worship the same God. We are all God's children.

    Votes: 7 12.7%

  • Total voters
    55

Porter ODoran

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minasoliman said:
My guess is that the other verses did not appear until much later if it can be studied in Quranic manuscripts.  This pretty much means that once it was assumed to be "virgins", the other verses were added to reinforce this concept.
That is complicated, but possible. It is at least as possible that Arab culture and religion found reasonable and enticing a reward to faithful men of a harem of semidivine "houri." Just as there's no reason to think that the "jinn," for example, are a late textual addition based on a linguistic misunderstanding because they are strange to modern Western readers. The mores of the liberal West are pretty irrelevant in the long scheme of things.
 

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Godspell said:
JamesR said:
Perhaps a better question is do we worship the same God as Muslims, Jews, and other Trinitarian Christians?

Before we attempt to determine whether or not they worship the same God as us, we need to determine just exactly what God we worship. Given the many disagreements within Orthodoxy and different opinions and theologies of internet Orthodoxy and to some degree (but not nearly as much) in real-life Orthodoxy, it's not as clearcut as many would like to make it. Do "schismatic" Orthodox and "world" Orthodox worship the same God? Do I worship the same God (when I'm not rebelling against Him) as say Isa or Maria?

Anyhoo, I suppose one could argue that a God in the Abrahamic concept of a Creator is by default the same God since they are all viewed as the Creator. You could define God as the Creator and the Abrahamic religions as merely being details about this Creator. The problem is that many people--especially Protestants--are really afraid to get into the details of just what the Abrahamic God is.

On the other hand, St. John politically incorrectly says in his epistle that:

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either...
This, at first glance, would clearly suggest that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God or have the same God as us since they deny the Son of God. I'd also add that one could argue that when you have incorrect doctrines and ideas about God, then you aren't really worshipping God but are merely worshipping an intellectual idol of God in your mind. But that begs the question: what is God? How do we define God? When do we draw the line between the definition of God and mere predicates about God? Or does such a thing even exist? Or is the former defined precisely by the latter?

I'm personally very uncertain. And I think that Jews and Muslims are as well. I've met many Muslims who believe that we share the same God, whereas others vehemently believe that we share different Gods, some even go as far as to call us polytheists. So yes, there is some confusion within the Islamic community as well in regards to this question.

The only ones I've seen who seem consistent are Jews who, from what I've gathered, seem to believe that neither Christians nor Muslims worship the same God as them.
I picked up a Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlet today--and the JW say Jesus was not God, but Michael the Archangel--and anyways, they think that Jesus was crucified on a stake, not a cross--and claim the cross is pagan. My wife, who is former LDS, also said that the LDS doesn't use crosses in worship because they celebrate Christ's life not death. And of course Muslims don't use the cross. I've though this rather intriguing that all the intense heresies literally deny the cross.
To-may-to, to-mah-to, as the Broadway hit said. 'Stavros' can be translated stake (English) or cross (Latin) or in plenty of other ways. If we were to make an issue of that, we'd be almost as weird as the religions you list above.
 

LBK

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'Stavros' can be translated stake (English) or cross (Latin) or in plenty of other ways.
Some food for thought:

There exists catacomb art, the precursor of iconography,which dates from the very beginning of the Christian era, which consistently shows Christ crucified on a cross.  There is also the cryptic symbol of T representing the cross and the Crucifixion. The most ancient form of crossing oneself was by tracing a cross (not a single line) on the forehead with one's thumb.

Then there are the Old Testament prefigurations and prophecies of the Cross: The bronze serpent in the shape of a T, and Moses stretching out his arms during which the Red Sea remained parted, allowing the Israelites to escape Pharaoh's army. To illustrate this here are some liturgical selections from Matins of the Third Sunday of Great Lent:

The godly Moses prefigured Your Cross of old, when he led Israel through the Red Sea, cutting the water with his rod, Your Cross; and he sang You a song of departure, Christ our God.

As with our hands we now embrace Your Cross, which Moses of old prefigured with his outstretched arms, the invisible Amalek we put to flight, Christ our Master, through whom we shall be saved.

Jonah in the belly of the whale foreshadowed by his outstretched hands the figure of the divine Cross; and he leapt out from the monster, saved by Your power, O Word.

Of old Jacob prefigured Your Cross, O Christ, when he venerated the top of Joseph’s holy staff, foreseeing this dread sceptre of Your Kingdom, which now we worship in faith to the ages.

Daniel, great among the prophets, was once cast into the lions’ den; but, stretching out his hands in the form of the Cross, unharmed he was saved from being devoured by them, as he blessed Christ our God to the ages.


And, a couple from the feast of September 14:

Prefiguring Your Cross, O Christ, in giving his blessing to his grandsons, the Patriarch Jacob crossed his hands over their heads. And raising it aloft today, O Savior, we cry out: Grant victory to all Orthodox Christians over their adversaries, as You gave the victory to Constantine.

Of old, Joshua, the son of Nun, mystically prefigured the image of the Cross when he stretched forth his arms in the form of the Cross, O my Savior; and the sun stood still until he had cast down all the enemy opposed to You, O God. And now You have raised with You the whole world, which saw You set upon the Cross, destroying the might of death.


Other liturgical sources such as the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete and the Holy Week services similarly link OT scripture with the form of the cross, and the manner in which Christ was fixed to the cross. The OT material alone is proof enough that Christ could not have been impaled, nor have been fixed to a pole (as the Jehovah's Witnesses believe), or on an implement or object which did not have a vertical component intersected by a horizontal component, on which His arms were extended.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
The mores of the liberal West are pretty irrelevant in the long scheme of things.
They are the horizon of your possibility, so I guess so.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
Godspell said:
JamesR said:
Perhaps a better question is do we worship the same God as Muslims, Jews, and other Trinitarian Christians?

Before we attempt to determine whether or not they worship the same God as us, we need to determine just exactly what God we worship. Given the many disagreements within Orthodoxy and different opinions and theologies of internet Orthodoxy and to some degree (but not nearly as much) in real-life Orthodoxy, it's not as clearcut as many would like to make it. Do "schismatic" Orthodox and "world" Orthodox worship the same God? Do I worship the same God (when I'm not rebelling against Him) as say Isa or Maria?

Anyhoo, I suppose one could argue that a God in the Abrahamic concept of a Creator is by default the same God since they are all viewed as the Creator. You could define God as the Creator and the Abrahamic religions as merely being details about this Creator. The problem is that many people--especially Protestants--are really afraid to get into the details of just what the Abrahamic God is.

On the other hand, St. John politically incorrectly says in his epistle that:

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either...
This, at first glance, would clearly suggest that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God or have the same God as us since they deny the Son of God. I'd also add that one could argue that when you have incorrect doctrines and ideas about God, then you aren't really worshipping God but are merely worshipping an intellectual idol of God in your mind. But that begs the question: what is God? How do we define God? When do we draw the line between the definition of God and mere predicates about God? Or does such a thing even exist? Or is the former defined precisely by the latter?

I'm personally very uncertain. And I think that Jews and Muslims are as well. I've met many Muslims who believe that we share the same God, whereas others vehemently believe that we share different Gods, some even go as far as to call us polytheists. So yes, there is some confusion within the Islamic community as well in regards to this question.

The only ones I've seen who seem consistent are Jews who, from what I've gathered, seem to believe that neither Christians nor Muslims worship the same God as them.
I picked up a Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlet today--and the JW say Jesus was not God, but Michael the Archangel--and anyways, they think that Jesus was crucified on a stake, not a cross--and claim the cross is pagan. My wife, who is former LDS, also said that the LDS doesn't use crosses in worship because they celebrate Christ's life not death. And of course Muslims don't use the cross. I've though this rather intriguing that all the intense heresies literally deny the cross.
To-may-to, to-mah-to, as the Broadway hit said. 'Stavros' can be translated stake (English) or cross (Latin) or in plenty of other ways. If we were to make an issue of that, we'd be almost as weird as the religions you list above.
Well its basically a modern day iconoclast. JWs are claiming that the cross is an evil pagan symbol. It's not the word that they take issue with, its the symbol.

And it's really difficult to cast out demons with a stick.
 

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Maria said:
vamrat said:
There is only one God, and John the Baptist is His prophet.
Good response, but most Muslims would probably take offense for defiling their creed.
I wonder what they would think of bullets dipped in bacon drippings?
 

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Godspell said:
Well its basically a modern day iconoclast. JWs are claiming that the cross is an evil pagan symbol. It's not the word that they take issue with, its the symbol.

And it's really difficult to cast out demons with a stick.
I'm aware what the Witnesses teach, and of course quite agree that it's lamentable heresy at best. I was addressing what you were implying in addition to that, that it's necessary to translate 'stavros' "cross."
 

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Godspell said:
Porter ODoran said:
Godspell said:
JamesR said:
Perhaps a better question is do we worship the same God as Muslims, Jews, and other Trinitarian Christians?

Before we attempt to determine whether or not they worship the same God as us, we need to determine just exactly what God we worship. Given the many disagreements within Orthodoxy and different opinions and theologies of internet Orthodoxy and to some degree (but not nearly as much) in real-life Orthodoxy, it's not as clearcut as many would like to make it. Do "schismatic" Orthodox and "world" Orthodox worship the same God? Do I worship the same God (when I'm not rebelling against Him) as say Isa or Maria?

Anyhoo, I suppose one could argue that a God in the Abrahamic concept of a Creator is by default the same God since they are all viewed as the Creator. You could define God as the Creator and the Abrahamic religions as merely being details about this Creator. The problem is that many people--especially Protestants--are really afraid to get into the details of just what the Abrahamic God is.

On the other hand, St. John politically incorrectly says in his epistle that:

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either...
This, at first glance, would clearly suggest that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God or have the same God as us since they deny the Son of God. I'd also add that one could argue that when you have incorrect doctrines and ideas about God, then you aren't really worshipping God but are merely worshipping an intellectual idol of God in your mind. But that begs the question: what is God? How do we define God? When do we draw the line between the definition of God and mere predicates about God? Or does such a thing even exist? Or is the former defined precisely by the latter?

I'm personally very uncertain. And I think that Jews and Muslims are as well. I've met many Muslims who believe that we share the same God, whereas others vehemently believe that we share different Gods, some even go as far as to call us polytheists. So yes, there is some confusion within the Islamic community as well in regards to this question.

The only ones I've seen who seem consistent are Jews who, from what I've gathered, seem to believe that neither Christians nor Muslims worship the same God as them.
I picked up a Jehovah's Witnesses pamphlet today--and the JW say Jesus was not God, but Michael the Archangel--and anyways, they think that Jesus was crucified on a stake, not a cross--and claim the cross is pagan. My wife, who is former LDS, also said that the LDS doesn't use crosses in worship because they celebrate Christ's life not death. And of course Muslims don't use the cross. I've though this rather intriguing that all the intense heresies literally deny the cross.
To-may-to, to-mah-to, as the Broadway hit said. 'Stavros' can be translated stake (English) or cross (Latin) or in plenty of other ways. If we were to make an issue of that, we'd be almost as weird as the religions you list above.
Well its basically a modern day iconoclast. JWs are claiming that the cross is an evil pagan symbol. It's not the word that they take issue with, its the symbol.

And it's really difficult to cast out demons with a stick.
It's quite an extreme form of iconoclasm.  There's only one more icon left to destroy...the Bible...oh never mind  :p
 

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It's quite an extreme form of iconoclasm.  There's only one more icon left to destroy...the Bible...oh never mind  :p
Indeed. I could never understand the "logic" behind the prohibition of imagery, while Bibles remained sacrosanct.
 

LBK

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Porter ODoran said:
I'm aware what the Witnesses teach, and of course quite agree that it's lamentable heresy at best. I was addressing what you were implying in addition to that, that it's necessary to translate 'stavros' "cross."
The necessity of translating stavros as cross is rooted in the OT prefigurations, and expressed in the hymns I quoted previously.
 

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If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.

Perhaps the "muslim" who doesn't hold to the Islamic doctrines and holds to a simple monotheism which doesn't exclude or include Christ as God may be worshipping the true God, but in the explicit denial of Christ as God they deny who God is and thus cannot be worshipping God. The True God any way.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.

 

LBK

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Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.

Perhaps the "muslim" who doesn't hold to the Islamic doctrines and holds to a simple monotheism which doesn't exclude or include Christ as God may be worshipping the true God, but in the explicit denial of Christ as God they deny who God is and thus cannot be worshipping God. The True God any way.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
A perfect answer. Thank you.  :)
 

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Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
 

Maria

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Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
So, Keble, how did you vote? Were you one of the 7 who voted "YES"?
 

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Maria said:
So, Keble, how did you vote? Were you one of the 7 who voted "YES"?
Maria, if you were really paying attention to what I've written in this thread, it should be easy to work out my vote.
 

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28

no, they worship the preAbramic moon god Allah...
 

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Cyrus said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28

no, they worship the preAbramic moon god Allah...
Yeah, 'cause homemade stuff on YouTube posted by who knows who, is always the best place to get religious scholarship, and you should immediately accept it as true.
 

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Cyrus said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28

no, they worship the preAbramic moon god Allah...
Islam is based in the judeo-christian tradition, it is not pagan.
 

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Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
What do Christians confess? We confess God as Father son and Holy spirit. We cannot deny the divinity of any of these. To deny the divinity of one is essentially to deny the divinity of each other because they all have the exact same essence or substance. They are homousious. 

What good does it do the Muslim to say they worship God when they say Jesus is not God? How is God then worshipped? To me it seems he is not. This is what I mean by "they divide God," not in their own intellectual capacity. Rather Muslims seem submit to what I would call a rather radically Apothatic theolgy, to the point where I have heard Muslims tell me with all sincerity their God does not have a substance or is not even a 'Person' although I suspect they don't know what I mean by this word. They are not deliberately seeking to cut parts off God, but if as they claim they are, to worship the God of Christ and yet deny Christ himself, that is in of itself doing to the real God the impossible.

For they cannot be worshipping God, God as in trinity, fully or even only a little by acknowledging only one person the father I presume but Muslims don't even say they do that. If the Christian is right about the certain things we claim we know about God if only they be a little, the muslim nor the jew worships the God of the Christians. This just make sense to me.
 

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Nicene, this is pretty much the thinking I described. You're saying, basically, because their theory of God's nature is far enough off, they are worshipping something that doesn't exist. But you cannot tell whether this is true: the church can try to draw a sharp line marked "heretics" on one side, and say that those people don't worship God, but that does not make it so. The only accurate and definite statement is that they are doing it wrong.
 

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Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
I think if I understand you correctly, I agree!  Even Sufis who purported to have a concept of God as light and perhaps can be communed or have a relationship with have hymns filled with talking about who or what God is.  Their meditations lie on defining the concepts of Allah, and not on having a relationship with Allah and having communion with Him.  And so this concept becomes very much engrained theologically and leads to a purely legalistic concept of religion, more than a relationship.  Dr. George Bebawy describes it best, and I'm paraphrasing, that they talk about God, but they don't pray to God as their own Father.
 

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Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
Wow. Always great stuff. Why are you Anglican again? Not that Anglicans can't be great, Rottnek is pretty awesome too, but have you ever put forth the great Anglican apology among your posts here?
 

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minasoliman said:
Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
I think if I understand you correctly, I agree!  Even Sufis who purported to have a concept of God as light and perhaps can be communed or have a relationship with have hymns filled with talking about who or what God is.  Their meditations lie on defining the concepts of Allah, and not on having a relationship with Allah and having communion with Him.  And so this concept becomes very much engrained theologically and leads to a purely legalistic concept of religion, more than a relationship.  Dr. George Bebawy describes it best, and I'm paraphrasing, that they talk about God, but they don't pray to God as their own Father.
On a Coptic Orthodox website, there was a book written by a Muslim convert to Orthodoxy. She was in Egypt where she was baptized and had to quickly leave the country. One miracle after another happened, and she was able to leave the country, but others protecting her often were imprisoned or killed, including a Coptic priest.

She mentioned that Islam is a religion of fear where one does not have any kind of relationship with God. Once she became a Christian she could say with all certainty that the God of Islam was demonic. Her biography is awesome, but I no longer have that copy.

I do not know if this site is still on line, but their publishing arm was The Pen and the Sword.
 
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I have had Jews tell me we do not pray to the same God, I do not agree , however I believe there is a problem when they deny Jesus, or as Muslims , only see him as another Prophet.

But I do not want to Judge them, just as there was a change created by God for Saul to become St.Paul, so it is possible for all to be saved.
 

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Keble said:
Nicene, this is pretty much the thinking I described. You're saying, basically, because their theory of God's nature is far enough off, they are worshipping something that doesn't exist. But you cannot tell whether this is true: the church can try to draw a sharp line marked "heretics" on one side, and say that those people don't worship God, but that does not make it so. The only accurate and definite statement is that they are doing it wrong.
I disagree. What does it take to worship God? It requires a basic conception of God. Islam and Christianity have two totally different conceptions. They both can't be right in the description of the God they worship. Both claim their GOd is above nature, but both claim differences in God as well which really do exclude the other. I also look to scripture. Were the worshippers of Baal worshipping the true God? They must have been by this argumentation.

How are they for instance worshipping Jesus in saying Jesus is not God?  If the doctrine of the trinity is correct and you say the Muslims are worshipping the true God who is trinity, only wrongly, how is Jesus being worshipped wrongly here? He isn't being worshipped at all. The person who became man for our sake is being explicitly denied and thus they are essentially saying "God is not this." How can they be worshipping the trinity at all if they refuse to accept the son?

I maintain they cannot.
 

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Maria said:
minasoliman said:
Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
I think if I understand you correctly, I agree!  Even Sufis who purported to have a concept of God as light and perhaps can be communed or have a relationship with have hymns filled with talking about who or what God is.  Their meditations lie on defining the concepts of Allah, and not on having a relationship with Allah and having communion with Him.  And so this concept becomes very much engrained theologically and leads to a purely legalistic concept of religion, more than a relationship.  Dr. George Bebawy describes it best, and I'm paraphrasing, that they talk about God, but they don't pray to God as their own Father.
On a Coptic Orthodox website, there was a book written by a Muslim convert to Orthodoxy. She was in Egypt where she was baptized and had to quickly leave the country. One miracle after another happened, and she was able to leave the country, but others protecting her often were imprisoned or killed, including a Coptic priest.

She mentioned that Islam is a religion of fear where one does not have any kind of relationship with God. Once she became a Christian she could say with all certainty that the God of Islam was demonic. Her biography is awesome, but I no longer have that copy.

I do not know if this site is still on line, but their publishing arm was The Pen and the Sword.
Sometimes it becomes quite an emotional response.  When troops associated with the bishop of Rome ransacked many Eastern Christian communities during the Crusades, I'm sure many people would say the Roman Catholics worshipped the devil, and the polemics of "the God of Fioloque" became more rampant than ever before.  In the dark ages, there were many Christians who imposed fear upon the people for disbelieving in Christ, and it becomes a sad reality that I'm sure Christ would lament.

My main point was theological, so as not to allow any hint of grudge against a certain group.  The main arguments today made by so many people against Islam is this oppressive nature in it, and it is a valid argument.  But given that Christian history also had its fair share of oppressiveness, I avoid to make these arguments.  It's a wonderful thing however to see many ex-Muslims who are willing to risk their lives to believe in Christ, and that takes true faith theologically.  Because fear alone is not going to get these people to stick to Christ's divine teachings.  There are in fact a lot of atheists among Muslims because of the fear-mongering.  So, beyond the fear, there is something theological about these Muslims who do become Christian more than a mere anti-Islamic hatred.  It is the fact that they now have a relationship with God as a Father, something that Islam does not allow theologically speaking.  Many converts I find tend to be more forgiving in nature to Muslims and to Islam, and to find a genuine love and affection to win over many of them with the peace of Christ in their hearts.
 

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minasoliman said:
Maria said:
minasoliman said:
Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
I think if I understand you correctly, I agree!  Even Sufis who purported to have a concept of God as light and perhaps can be communed or have a relationship with have hymns filled with talking about who or what God is.  Their meditations lie on defining the concepts of Allah, and not on having a relationship with Allah and having communion with Him.  And so this concept becomes very much engrained theologically and leads to a purely legalistic concept of religion, more than a relationship.  Dr. George Bebawy describes it best, and I'm paraphrasing, that they talk about God, but they don't pray to God as their own Father.
On a Coptic Orthodox website, there was a book written by a Muslim convert to Orthodoxy. She was in Egypt where she was baptized and had to quickly leave the country. One miracle after another happened, and she was able to leave the country, but others protecting her often were imprisoned or killed, including a Coptic priest.

She mentioned that Islam is a religion of fear where one does not have any kind of relationship with God. Once she became a Christian she could say with all certainty that the God of Islam was demonic. Her biography is awesome, but I no longer have that copy.

I do not know if this site is still on line, but their publishing arm was The Pen and the Sword.
Sometimes it becomes quite an emotional response.  When troops associated with the bishop of Rome ransacked many Eastern Christian communities during the Crusades, I'm sure many people would say the Roman Catholics worshipped the devil, and the polemics of "the God of Fioloque" became more rampant than ever before.  In the dark ages, there were many Christians who imposed fear upon the people for disbelieving in Christ, and it becomes a sad reality that I'm sure Christ would lament.

My main point was theological, so as not to allow any hint of grudge against a certain group.  The main arguments today made by so many people against Islam is this oppressive nature in it, and it is a valid argument.  But given that Christian history also had its fair share of oppressiveness, I avoid to make these arguments.  It's a wonderful thing however to see many ex-Muslims who are willing to risk their lives to believe in Christ, and that takes true faith theologically.  Because fear alone is not going to get these people to stick to Christ's divine teachings.  There are in fact a lot of atheists among Muslims because of the fear-mongering.  So, beyond the fear, there is something theological about these Muslims who do become Christian more than a mere anti-Islamic hatred.  It is the fact that they now have a relationship with God as a Father, something that Islam does not allow theologically speaking.  Many converts I find tend to be more forgiving in nature to Muslims and to Islam, and to find a genuine love and affection to win over many of them with the peace of Christ in their hearts.
We must pray for these Muslim converts. Like you say, some have come to Christ, shedding all their previous baggage, and moving on in theosis, but most struggle. I knew a Muslim lady who converted with her mother to Orthodox Christianity, and they attended the Orthodox parish for years, until the mom had to be placed in a convalescent home because she had Alzheimers. Her son came to visit her very infrequently, and declared after her death, that she had reverted to Islam. Her daughter, a devout Orthodox Christian, denied this as she was with her mom at the hour of her death. Nevertheless, the son procured an Islamic funeral and internment as he claimed to be the head of the household. The lady is very concerned because her brother has become very militant, and try as she may to move, her brother finds her, and has said that he will give her an Islamic funeral and deny her Christian friends from visiting her in her last hours.

We must pray for ex-Muslims as they are not out of the woods yet, and it is hard for them to move forward with constant threats from their Islamic relatives.
 

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Maria said:
http://taylormarshall.com/2014/08/muslims-worship-god-christians.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=muslims-worship-god-christians&utm_source=Taylor+Marshall%27s+Updates&utm_campaign=1ccf64a886-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_64accbc3c7-1ccf64a886-59166997

Dr.  Taylor Marshall tackles a dilemma in the Roman Catholic Church, which seems to say that Christian, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God as did Abraham.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to teach that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. Do you agree or disagree, and what are your reasons?
Well they worship the God of Abraham.  We Christians believe this is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.    If they do worship the God of Abraham, the same God as the Christians, then to Christians - Muslims are Christians and just don't know it.  ::)
 

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yeshuaisiam said:
Maria said:
http://taylormarshall.com/2014/08/muslims-worship-god-christians.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=muslims-worship-god-christians&utm_source=Taylor+Marshall%27s+Updates&utm_campaign=1ccf64a886-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_64accbc3c7-1ccf64a886-59166997

Dr.  Taylor Marshall tackles a dilemma in the Roman Catholic Church, which seems to say that Christian, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God as did Abraham.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to teach that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. Do you agree or disagree, and what are your reasons?
Well they worship the God of Abraham.  We Christians believe this is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.    If they do worship the God of Abraham, the same God as the Christians, then to Christians - Muslims are Christians and just don't know it.  ::)
Well, this concept of divinity I alluded to earlier seems to have serious disagreement between Judaism and Islam.  Can God dwell in us?  In Judaism, the answer is yes.  In Islam, the answer is no.
 

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minasoliman said:
yeshuaisiam said:
Maria said:
http://taylormarshall.com/2014/08/muslims-worship-god-christians.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=muslims-worship-god-christians&utm_source=Taylor+Marshall%27s+Updates&utm_campaign=1ccf64a886-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_64accbc3c7-1ccf64a886-59166997

Dr.  Taylor Marshall tackles a dilemma in the Roman Catholic Church, which seems to say that Christian, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God as did Abraham.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to teach that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. Do you agree or disagree, and what are your reasons?
Well they worship the God of Abraham.  We Christians believe this is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.    If they do worship the God of Abraham, the same God as the Christians, then to Christians - Muslims are Christians and just don't know it.  ::)
Well, this concept of divinity I alluded to earlier seems to have serious disagreement between Judaism and Islam.  Can God dwell in us?  In Judaism, the answer is yes.  In Islam, the answer is no.
Yes.  Plus they simply do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (except as a prophet). Will they deny Jesus as the Messiah?  Will Jesus deny them before his Father?

I believe they MUST worship the same God as Abraham as they claim.  I mean it would not be fair to say they didn't.  But they have it all wrong.  As far as how God sees it, I am not worthy to say, nor would I know.... 

Their talking infant Jesus stories are rather interesting though.  :p
 

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Nicene said:
Keble said:
Nicene said:
If Muslims deny that Christ is God and if Christ is united to the father in essence, thus making him "true God of true God," it seems to me impossible that the Muslim who confesses what Islam actually teaches (Jesus is not God) is worshipping the true God. We cannot divide God so why should we allow the Muslim to divide God by saying they only worship the father? Even then the Muslims don't call God father.
Well, obviously they don't divide God, because God is after all indivisible in that sense. That's where this discussion keeps leading us in the direction of a kind of intellectual idolatry, because people keep talking as if other people worshipped an idea of God, and not God Himself. God is not a set of propositions, so there's something wrong with saying that people worship something else because their set of propositions is incorrect. Indeed, the incomprehensibility of God implies that each of us has some internalized defect in the way we view Him, and that therefore each of us is not worshipping the true God.

The same goes with the Jew who rejects Christ.
This requires even more bizarre mental contortions. What, the LORD suddenly is someone else?

There is far too much interest here in finding a reason to answer "no" to the question than in coming up with something that holds together rationally.
What do Christians confess? We confess God as Father son and Holy spirit. We cannot deny the divinity of any of these. To deny the divinity of one is essentially to deny the divinity of each other because they all have the exact same essence or substance. They are homousious. 

What good does it do the Muslim to say they worship God when they say Jesus is not God? How is God then worshipped? To me it seems he is not. This is what I mean by "they divide God," not in their own intellectual capacity. Rather Muslims seem submit to what I would call a rather radically Apothatic theolgy, to the point where I have heard Muslims tell me with all sincerity their God does not have a substance or is not even a 'Person' although I suspect they don't know what I mean by this word. They are not deliberately seeking to cut parts off God, but if as they claim they are, to worship the God of Christ and yet deny Christ himself, that is in of itself doing to the real God the impossible.

For they cannot be worshipping God, God as in trinity, fully or even only a little by acknowledging only one person the father I presume but Muslims don't even say they do that. If the Christian is right about the certain things we claim we know about God if only they be a little, the muslim nor the jew worships the God of the Christians. This just make sense to me.
I am not sure about this.  The Jews worship God.  Pre-Christ they worshiped God (YHWH) and I have no problem saying they worshiped the correct God.

Today the Jews still worship YHWH, who is God.  However they are missing an important piece, his only son and our Messiah Jesus, who is God.

I see Jews as worshiping God, but they only have a part of the understanding and a less fullness of God.
I see Muslims way differently than Jews, as they never practiced the full law of God, as the Jews (and are twisted in their understanding).  ie - "salvation comes from the Jews" (Christ)

Christians are blessed in knowing more of God and have the fullness (or more of a fullness), and have the fullness of the Messiah and New Covenant.
 

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Nicene said:
The thing is I don't see the jews as worshipping the true God.
I agree with you.

Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the Old Testaments saints did worship God as they knew Him, the Genesis Account of Creation does give a glimpse that God is a Triune God. Plus the visitation of the three angels representing God to Abraham at the Oaks gives another indication that God is Triune. When Christ came and preached to the captives in Hades, they were given the opportunity to accept or reject Him, were they not?

The Jews who rejected Christ also rejected the Father.

Muslims who reject Christ as God, reject the Father too.
 

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Maria said:
Nicene said:
The thing is I don't see the jews as worshipping the true God.
I agree with you.

Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the Old Testaments saints did worship God as they knew Him, the Genesis Account of Creation does give a glimpse that God is a Triune God. Plus the visitation of the three angels representing God to Abraham at the Oaks gives another indication that God is Triune. When Christ came and preached to the captives in Hades, they were given the opportunity to accept or reject Him, were they not?

The Jews who rejected Christ also rejected the Father.

Muslims who reject Christ as God, reject the Father too.
I've wondered, when God visited Abraham, was that the Father incarnate? Or something else?
 

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Maria said:
Nicene said:
The thing is I don't see the jews as worshipping the true God.
I agree with you.

Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the Old Testaments saints did worship God as they knew Him, the Genesis Account of Creation does give a glimpse that God is a Triune God. Plus the visitation of the three angels representing God to Abraham at the Oaks gives another indication that God is Triune. When Christ came and preached to the captives in Hades, they were given the opportunity to accept or reject Him, were they not?

The Jews who rejected Christ also rejected the Father.

Muslims who reject Christ as God, reject the Father too.
Christ himself said "No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23).

The idea that we are worshiping the same God is nothing but a delusion.
 

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There is only one God who sent His only Begotten Son into the world to save sinners. Everyone must come to Him.  We are to lead people to Him.  other faiths worship an idea. To say all religions worship the same God is to deny Christ.
 

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username! said:
Tributaries Christians are Orthodox. Catholics protestants etc.. have different Cristologies. It can be derived that they aren't even worshipping the same God as we do..
No, but then again, some people get a kick out of thinking they hold God's rubber stamp for him.  ::)
 

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biro said:
username! said:
Tributaries Christians are Orthodox. Catholics protestants etc.. have different Cristologies. It can be derived that they aren't even worshipping the same God as we do..
No, but then again, some people get a kick out of thinking they hold God's rubber stamp for him.  ::)
Funny if you knew where I learnt that...
 

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username! said:
Tributaries Christians are Orthodox. Catholics protestants etc.. have different Cristologies. It can be derived that they aren't even worshipping the same God as we do..
Yes, how can they be worshiping the same God as we do, especially if these "Christians" deny that Christ is God or preach that there was a time when Christ was not God?

On the one hand, wasn't St. Constantine baptized by an Arian Bishop?

If some one is of good will, and has been misled by an Arian heretic, is it their fault? I would hope that Christ would grant them mercy when they died and approached the pearly gates.

On the other hand, it would be wrong of us to ignore that heresies do exist, not attempt to pray for these heretics, and keep silent so that they might persevere in their heresies. We are to instruct the ignorant.

The Arian heresy has resurfaced and is alive and well in Protestant denominations. I have even read some Roman Catholic writings that were tainted with Neo-Arianism. Before I became Orthodox, I attended a text and video-based bible study at a Protestant church which taught that Christ became God at His Baptism when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Him. When I heard that heretical statement, I left that group never to return. Even though I did alert the leader of the group about this insidious heresy, he refused to listen. I also told several women who had invited me to that group why I had left it. They too refused to listen.

 
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