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Do Orthodox have eucharistic miracles?

Do Orthodox have eucharistic miracles on display?

  • yes

    Votes: 5 20.8%
  • no

    Votes: 10 41.7%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • not recently

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24

Kaste

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Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Do eucharistic miracles play a part in Orthodoxy's history, or does Orthodoxy point to icon miracles more?
Thank you-
Kaste
 

Azurestone

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Marc1152 said:
What is a Eucharistic miracle?
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
 

Punch

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When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
 

ialmisry

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Kaste said:
Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Yes. Several.
Do eucharistic miracles play a part in Orthodoxy's history, or does Orthodoxy point to icon miracles more?
No. Yes.

Does the "invisible church" have them?
 

Azurestone

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Punch said:
When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
 

ialmisry

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Azurestone said:
Punch said:
When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.
 

Azurestone

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ialmisry said:
Azurestone said:
Punch said:
When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.
I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
 

ialmisry

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Azurestone said:
ialmisry said:
Azurestone said:
Punch said:
When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.
I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
Depends on the packaging. I susupect Punch has seen some of the ridiculous packaging I have seen.

Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.
 

Azurestone

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ialmisry said:
Azurestone said:
ialmisry said:
Azurestone said:
Punch said:
When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.
I can accept that. But I find outright disregard as gimmickry incredulous and intellectually insulting.
Depends on the packaging. I susupect Punch has seen some of the ridiculous packaging I have seen.

Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.
I don't think it is troubling, but I also don't see it as a "defect" of the Orthodox.

Eucharistic Adoration, is not only a spiritual prayer than can be "enjoyed" by the prayerful. It's an implementation, foremost, of the "lex orandi, lex credendi" rule. And Unfortunately, in the West, there has been a sever drop in belief in the real presence. Eucharistic Adoration is then beneficial to help restore and reinforce that understanding. Something that hasn't been a problem in the East, but has become, like iconoclasm, a problem in the West.

These Catholics that see it as a defect, don't understand it's purpose, but merely compare all traditions, have a spiritual love for "EA", and, from their experiences, have a hard time understanding how anyone would not have a similar practice.
 

Papist

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ialmisry said:
Not so ridiculous, but troubling, is the increasing emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration such that it is de facto seen as necessary, so much that it is listed by Ultramontanists as another "defect" of the Orthodox Church.
Oh you and your silly words. Sticks and Stones my friend... Sticks and Stones.
;D :D ;)
You're just a silly little guy, arn't ya
 

Kaste

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ialmisry said:
Kaste said:
Hello,

Are there any eucharistic miracles the Orthodox Church displays for all to see, like Catholics do, if so which ones?
Yes. Several.
What/where are they?
 

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
 

ChristusDominus

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Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How about in the Western Rite? Take a look at page 341-342 in the St. Ambrose Prayerbook of the Western Rite:

                                        An Act of Adoration

Jesus my Lord and My God, Son of the living God and Son of the Virgin Mary, I believe that Thou art here, and I adore Thee, behind the form of the Sacred Host I believe that Thou art present, in all the perfection of Thy Manhood and Divinity, and I adore Thee. With all the Angels of Thy court, with Thy holy Mother Mary, and with all Thy Saints, I kneel in humble adoration. Jesus, my Lord, I Thee adore, O make me love Thee more and more. Amen
 

podkarpatska

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
Do we not make the sign of the cross as we pass an Orthodox Church in our belief that the real presence of Christ is there in the reserve sacrament in the altar? Is not the perpetually burning vigil lamp a sign of the presence of Christ?  Granted much of what we see from the West is 'over the top' from our point of view, but does that make it heretical? I wonder if this discussion is really about form, rather than substance?
 

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podkarpatska said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
Do we not make the sign of the cross as we pass an Orthodox Church in our belief that the real presence of Christ is there in the reserve sacrament in the altar? Is not the perpetually burning vigil lamp a sign of the presence of Christ?  Granted much of what we see from the West is 'over the top' from our point of view, but does that make it heretical? I wonder if this discussion is really about form, rather than substance?
Right, we have Eucharistic miracles, we have Eucharistic adoration, although we ordinarily do not have eucharistic exposition outside of the context of Communion, but that does not eliminate that there is adoration, and within a communion context even exposition.  For example, the first part of Presanctified Liturgy has Eucharistic exposition and adoration, as the presanctified eucharist is removed, set upon the paten and venerated with prayer and incensation (however, in those whose practice is to draw the curtain or have high gates closed, only those inside the altar can actually see it exposed upon the altar).  Likewise, at the Presanctified Entrance, there is Eucharistic adoration. 
 

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Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.

Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.
 

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Nigula Qian Zishi said:
Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.
We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy. 

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.  In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.  Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
   
 

Crucifer

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the only reference i have ever seen to Eucharitic adoration in the EO is a line in the Way of the Piligrim, when he stops at the home of an ill person who receiving communion from the reserved sacramrent so he may "pray in the presence of th eHoly Gifts".
 

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FatherHLL said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.
We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     
The ROCOR clergy books tends to point this as the reason this might happen and what a priest should do if it occurs.
 

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Nigula Qian Zishi said:
FatherHLL said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
Adoration is a new practice. Plenty of polemics why it is wrong.Anyway, yes these things happen, usually due to a priest's unbelief. Russian Clergy books tell the priest what to do in case this happens. It does not include putting it on display.
We have some ambiguity here. 
We are talking about three things at once:
1.  Eucharistic miracles
2.  The RC practice of exposition/adoration of the host in an ostensorium
3.  Adoration of the Lord present in the Eucharist with regard to Orthodoxy.   

This is already causing some confusion.  I assume by saying "adoration is a new practice" you are referring to the RC practice of the exposition of the eucharist in an ostensorium.   In the second part you refer to eucharistic miracles happening "usually due to the priest's unbelief."  Actually, although that is the context of a few, that is not the context of most.   Read here:  http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/grkmirac.html
     
The ROCOR clergy books tends to point this as the reason this might happen and what a priest should do if it occurs.
I have heard from a couple of priests that should the Eucharist ever appear physically as anything other than wine and bread, while although it would be considered a miracle, it would not be considered a compliment and the liturgy would need to be suspended and the Bishop called immediately.  Take all that for what it is worth as I do not have a direct source to provide.
 

Irish Hermit

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A modern eucharistic miracle in the Romanian monastery at Sihastria.

See message 10
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18899.msg278661/topicseen.html#msg278661
 

Irish Hermit

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The full Russian Orthodox Priest's Service Book (Sluzhebnik) contains exhaustive instructual material in an Appendix called "Uchitel'noye
Izvestiye" -- ("Instructional Information" may be the best translation).

It contains detailed instructions to the priest how to prepare for the Liturgy and what to do in a very wide range of circumstances if something should happen during Liturgy with the priest or the Holy Gifts.

Regarding the subject under discussion, in this Appendix we read:

"If after the consecration of the bread or the wine a miracle should
appear, namely, that the appearance of the bread would become that of
flesh, or of a child, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this
appearance does not change shortly, meaning, if the appearance of bread or
wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest
commune, for these are not the Body and Blood of Christ, but simply a
miracle from God, manifested as a reult of disbelief or other cause,--let
the priest take another prosphoron (if only the appearance of the bread
changed), and as shown above, let him perform the proskomedia actions and
words with it, let him take out the Holy Lamb, and having set aside the one
that has been miraculously changed and preserved it with care, let him
begin with the prayer "With these blessed powers we also...", and let him
perform all in order, but repeat nothing over the chalice. If it is in the
chalice that the appearance of wine has changed, let him into a new holy
chalice, or having poured out the contents into another vessel, into the
chalice pour wine again, saying the words of the proskomedia over it, and
so, let him consecrate it as usual, and at the time of Communion let him
commune as always, and complete the service.

"If shortly that which had appeared as flesh, or a child, should again
appear to be bread, or in the chalice, that which had appeared to be blood
should once again appear as wine, let him not sacrifice another lamb, or
pour new wine into the chalice, but let him commune with these, and so
complete the service: for they are the true Body and Blood of Christ."

 

PoorFoolNicholas

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that which had appeared as flesh, or a child
Is this to be taken literally? I have seen some icons with a very tiny Christ inside the chalice, obviously implying the real presence. But is there really a living breathing child in the chalice? And are there other accounts of this child in Orthodox sources?
 

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That doesn't answer my question. What is to be done with the child? Could you, or I speak and have a conversation with the child? Would we have to bury the child? This is what I meant to ask, forgive me for being unclear.
 

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Irish Hermit said:
The full Russian Orthodox Priest's Service Book (Sluzhebnik) contains exhaustive instructual material in an Appendix called "Uchitel'noye
Izvestiye" -- ("Instructional Information" may be the best translation).

It contains detailed instructions to the priest how to prepare for the Liturgy and what to do in a very wide range of circumstances if something should happen during Liturgy with the priest or the Holy Gifts.

Regarding the subject under discussion, in this Appendix we read:

"If after the consecration of the bread or the wine a miracle should
appear, namely, that the appearance of the bread would become that of
flesh, or of a child, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this
appearance does not change shortly, meaning, if the appearance of bread or
wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest
commune, for these are not the Body and Blood of Christ, but simply a
miracle from God, manifested as a reult of disbelief or other cause,--let
the priest take another prosphoron (if only the appearance of the bread
changed), and as shown above, let him perform the proskomedia actions and
words with it, let him take out the Holy Lamb, and having set aside the one
that has been miraculously changed and preserved it with care, let him
begin with the prayer "With these blessed powers we also...", and let him
perform all in order, but repeat nothing over the chalice. If it is in the
chalice that the appearance of wine has changed, let him into a new holy
chalice, or having poured out the contents into another vessel, into the
chalice pour wine again, saying the words of the proskomedia over it, and
so, let him consecrate it as usual, and at the time of Communion let him
commune as always, and complete the service.

"If shortly that which had appeared as flesh, or a child, should again
appear to be bread, or in the chalice, that which had appeared to be blood
should once again appear as wine, let him not sacrifice another lamb, or
pour new wine into the chalice, but let him commune with these, and so
complete the service: for they are the true Body and Blood of Christ."
Thank you.
 

deusveritasest

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Punch said:
When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
That was sort of a cheap shot, but I nonetheless laughed.  :laugh:
 

deusveritasest

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ialmisry said:
Azurestone said:
Punch said:
When you have Grace and are the True Church, the Eucharist IS a miracle and no other gimmickery is necessary.
I love how the defense is "gimmickery". Especially when some of these miracles were prior to the East/West Schism. That kind of poor defense is something I would expect from a militant atheist.
It just goes against the Orthodox phronoma to put emphasis on every aspect of the Eucharist except communing.
Ouch!  :eek:
 

deusveritasest

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
It's an innovation.  ;)

But seriously, often Orthodox have a problem with saving the Body and Blood of Christ for any other purpose other than what He instructed them to be for: partaking of them.
 

deusveritasest

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.
 

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deusveritasest said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.
When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
 

deusveritasest

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ChristusDominus said:
Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How about in the Western Rite? Take a look at page 341-342 in the St. Ambrose Prayerbook of the Western Rite:

                                        An Act of Adoration

Jesus my Lord and My God, Son of the living God and Son of the Virgin Mary, I believe that Thou art here, and I adore Thee, behind the form of the Sacred Host I believe that Thou art present, in all the perfection of Thy Manhood and Divinity, and I adore Thee. With all the Angels of Thy court, with Thy holy Mother Mary, and with all Thy Saints, I kneel in humble adoration. Jesus, my Lord, I Thee adore, O make me love Thee more and more. Amen
The Fraction and Confession in the Coptic rite appear to me to be a form of Eucharistic Adoration. The significant part about this is it is done in the context of the Communion rite. Are you saying that what you are quoting is different?

 

deusveritasest

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Irish Hermit said:
deusveritasest said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Ortho_cat said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Is there anything wrong with the adoration from an Orthodox POV?
Such a practice outside the context of the Divine Liturgy itself is not found in the deposit of faith.
How can it be a problem to adore the body and blood of Christ, even if it is not part of the Liturgy?
It is technically avoiding using the elements for what Christ told us to use them for.
When I enter the holy Altar it is to Christ present in the Tabernacle on the Holy Table to whom I make my prostrations of adoration.
Not that I had any desire to get into this, but even the Byzantine practice of reserving the elements seems to be an innovation. I have been told that the Copts do not do it, and all that is in the tabernacle is the Holy Chalice itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true of the other Orientals.

Not that I have a problem with your practice. It is still very different from the Latin practice I was addressing. You save it primarily for the purpose of it being consumed at some later point.
 

Irish Hermit

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I should add that if there is any reason to open the Tabernacle or the Pyx (Daronositsa - used for carrying the Holy Gifts) then the priest and any other people present will fall down in adoration of Christ.

If anybody is wondering this is hows a Daronositsa looks.  (Irish possesses a word for this from centuries back -chrismal, which means Christ-carrier.  Monks carried the sacred particles in leather pouches around their necks when out in the fields.  The reason was so they could have communion when the Viking ships came into sight and they knew they were doomed to die.)
 

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This is slightly off topic

Is it required that the Eucharist be reserved on the Holy Table? Could the Tabernacle be kept behind the Holy Table?
 

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Irish Hermit said:
A modern eucharistic miracle in the Romanian monastery at Sihastria.

See message 10
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18899.msg278661/topicseen.html#msg278661
The nun who blasphemed by saying the Holy Ghost would not descend because of calendar issues in that story should have been expelled and severely reprimanded for leading others away from a valid liturgy thus endangering their souls.
 
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