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Maximum Bob

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You know when different parties present different and mutually exclusive theories they can't all be right. Eventually we have to choose. I believe the Fathers were not at all reluctant to make these kinds of judgments. Saint Nicholas even punched Arius in the face over such an issue.

Now I am certainly no equal to the Church Fathers and may be too ecumenical, but when I left my church, I didn't leave the church or the denomination I left Protestantism. Further, for my part I didn't and don't hate anyone, nor am I better than anyone. I have many Protestant friends and family members who I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, are very sincere in their beliefs and desire to serve God. No, I am no better than them and certainly in some ways worse. But it is possible to be sincere and also be sincerely wrong. Not in all matters, but definitely in some major ones.

For my part I was a Charismatic Minister, and was in charge of outreach in my church. I believe God spoke to me through the agency of the songs we were singing. First, I came to a point where I could no longer sing songs like “I surrender all” without being willing to truly surrender all, which at the time I though meant going to a third world country without electricity as a missionary. I will mention I also felt spoken to in a song, the lyrics of which included words to the effect that I needed to be willing to surrender even what I believed. I just didn't know what it meant at the time. Anyway, I began a season of fasting and prayer seeking to be totally surrendered to God's will. During that time my wife asked me to look into rather her Roman Catholic parents were “saved” or not. I started researching salvation and realized that various Protestant denominations had different and conflicting views of salvation all supposedly based on the same Bible. This is when I realized that these different beliefs were not based on the Bible but on the Bible and their respective traditions. This occurring in many churches that denied having tradition, or at least denied that their tradition was just as important to them as their Bible. I knew at that point, in the middle of my prayer and fasting to be totally surrendered, that I couldn't just ignore this. I had to make a choice and the other song lyric began to make sense. I chose, therefore, not one of the 500 year old or less traditions that claims to believe only the Bible, but the 2000 year old tradition that determined what the Christian Bible is.  I left my church in peace, saying goodbye in the Sunday morning service with the leadership's permission. I still love and pray for them and while I believe their tradition is wrong about some things and the Orthodox Church right I don't believe I am better.
 

Achronos

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Are you asaking whether I think some churches are better than others, you're damn straight I do. Don't you?
 
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Maximum Bob said:
You know when different parties present different and mutually exclusive theories they can't all be right. Eventually we have to choose. I believe the Fathers were not at all reluctant to make these kinds of judgments. Saint Nicholas even punched Arius in the face over such an issue.

Now I am certainly no equal to the Church Fathers and may be too ecumenical, but when I left my church, I didn't leave the church or the denomination I left Protestantism. Further, for my part I didn't and don't hate anyone, nor am I better than anyone. I have many Protestant friends and family members who I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, are very sincere in their beliefs and desire to serve God. No, I am no better than them and certainly in some ways worse. But it is possible to be sincere and also be sincerely wrong. Not in all matters, but definitely in some major ones.

For my part I was a Charismatic Minister, and was in charge of outreach in my church. I believe God spoke to me through the agency of the songs we were singing. First, I came to a point where I could no longer sing songs like “I surrender all” without being willing to truly surrender all, which at the time I though meant going to a third world country without electricity as a missionary. I will mention I also felt spoken to in a song, the lyrics of which included words to the effect that I needed to be willing to surrender even what I believed. I just didn't know what it meant at the time. Anyway, I began a season of fasting and prayer seeking to be totally surrendered to God's will. During that time my wife asked me to look into rather her Roman Catholic parents were “saved” or not. I started researching salvation and realized that various Protestant denominations had different and conflicting views of salvation all supposedly based on the same Bible. This is when I realized that these different beliefs were not based on the Bible but on the Bible and their respective traditions. This occurring in many churches that denied having tradition, or at least denied that their tradition was just as important to them as their Bible. I knew at that point, in the middle of my prayer and fasting to be totally surrendered, that I couldn't just ignore this. I had to make a choice and the other song lyric began to make sense. I chose, therefore, not one of the 500 year old or less traditions that claims to believe only the Bible, but the 2000 year old tradition that determined what the Christian Bible is.  I left my church in peace, saying goodbye in the Sunday morning service with the leadership's permission. I still love and pray for them and while I believe their tradition is wrong about some things and the Orthodox Church right I don't believe I am better.
Yes we can choose, but we also can be humble and not puffed up about it.

Saints and church fathers are or were also sinners subject to being wrong, Just as the Pope,bishops, or any man or woman is subject to God and his judgement of what is best.

We are to humble ourselves, there was only one sinless blameless man, and we crucified him, now you are all of a sudden righteous?

He ridiculed the leaders then for being righteous ,and told them he came for the sinners. You are now acting as the righteous who need no savior because you know what is best, unlike your neighbor who goes to that other christian church.

I say I will go to both your churches and together we can ask Jesus to help us all.

Matthew 18
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus Christ, Son of God ,Lord have mercy on us as we have mercy on others.

Luke 18
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Jesus went to the Temples to help them , even knowing beforehand that the leaders would reject him, he kept going to all of them.
 

Maximum Bob

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Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
 

AveChriste11

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tweety234 said:
Those of you who were something else before you became an Orthodox, and those of you who were once an Orthodox before you became something else. What exactly made you change? Did you not really believe in your previous denomination?
Not really.  I was brought up as a Southern Baptist, and I slowly started to fade away from believing in that as I began feeble attempts at evangelizing others online and listening to their counter arguments.  I had seriously considered Islam off and on, and had said the shahadah and prayers before.. and I even filled out a declaration card, to declare myself as a Baha'i in 2010... 

I converted to Orthodoxy in January of 2011 because, there was nothing like it.  I saw the incense, the images, and experiencing the Divine Liturgy was like "Heaven on Earth".  At the time I had been feeling very spiritually and emotionally malnourished by my experience among the Baha'i's and so it was truly a breath of fresh air.  I had been searching into historical Christianity at the time, and it was also in that same year that my mother converted to Roman Catholicism.  I just happened to agree with the Orthodox more...
 
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Maximum Bob said:
Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Maximum Bob said:
Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  ???
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Every church has sinners. Not every church has historical continuity with Christ and teaches the correct doctrine.
 
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Ashman618 said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Maximum Bob said:
Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  ???
Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.
 

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People in the Church are not always correct, and no one is infallible; nonetheless, Christ did found a Church, and it exists today, and it is exclusivistic just like it was in NT times. Be a Berean!
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Ashman618 said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Maximum Bob said:
Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  ???
Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.
My reply to your post was not one of judgement and I in no way claim to disagree with you and I don't declare myself of my church to never have made a mistake. Its just uncommon to hear that not even one church somewhere has been able to keep the correct faith and it caught me off guard. I apologize for any harm my words have caused you.
 

trevor72694

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I was raised in an immediate family that was pretty non religious (one might even say anti religious.)  My grandparents were all Catholic, coming from immigrant families from Poland, Germany, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  My Polish grandmother took me to mass as a youngin' and I absolutely loved it, so I do consider myself to be coming from a Roman Catholic background, even though I was a baptized Presbyterian.

I find the Orthodox Church to be wonderful.  It is the ancient Church.  The Orthodox Church has monasteries, holy fathers and mothers, so many saints, and many other things.

I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that I also love my Church because it makes me feel in touch with my Slavic roots.
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
You put yourself above the other denominations.
He wants mercy, not sacrifice, or your denominational sacrifice.

You want to go to your church why?What is wrong with your neighbor the Catholic, or protestant.
Well, I am curious as to how you will respond to the Apostle Paul

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

and some other words:

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

and

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever."

and

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

 

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choy said:
tweety234 said:
Those of you who were something else before you became an Orthodox, and those of you who were once an Orthodox before you became something else. What exactly made you change? Did you not really believe in your previous denomination?
I believed everything Catholicism teaches until I learned more.

Somewhat like choy, I was born and raised Lutheran and except for the stereotypical college drift, I believed the theology and teachings of the Lutheran church until I learned more. I wasn't looking (consciously, anyway) for Orthodoxy when I found it - nothing could have been further from my mind. Actually I had been accepted to seminary, and was in the formal discernment process for the ordained ministry. I prayed for God to show me His will. Boy, was that ever a mistake! Be careful what you pray for...
 

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Achronos said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Well that's kind of the point of the Church to heal us from sin.
I wonder how a church who is a community of mortal sinners, can heal someone from sin.
It's like a person with a broken arm healing another person with a broken arm. How can we heal others when we can't even heal ourselves?
 

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tweety234 said:
Achronos said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Well that's kind of the point of the Church to heal us from sin.
I wonder how a church who is a community of mortal sinners, can heal someone from sin.
It's like a person with a broken arm healing another person with a broken arm. How can we heal others when we can't even heal ourselves?
Because the Church is not simply a community of mortal sinners - it is the Body of Christ.
 

Second Chance

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Ashman618 said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Maximum Bob said:
Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  ???
Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.
You elevate yourself above the fray and proclaim Solomonic impartiality. That is an an Orthodox mindset that I am not familiar with. Please help me understand. I am having a really hard time figuring out how a poster who advises all to be humble is so puffed up and self-righteous.
 

Marc1152

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tweety234 said:
Achronos said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
Well that's kind of the point of the Church to heal us from sin.
I wonder how a church who is a community of mortal sinners, can heal someone from sin.
It's like a person with a broken arm healing another person with a broken arm. How can we heal others when we can't even heal ourselves?
WE don't heal others.

 
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