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Asteriktos

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Well, others can be healed through us, but that's different...
 
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Ashman618 said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Maximum Bob said:
Okay so this is me re-reading what I wrote...and done. Just where was it I said I was righteous, or where did Melodist either for that matter?

You know there is such a thing as heresy, and it's not only the Orthodox church who says so. I don't go to other churches to recruit and no one from the Orthodox church recruited me. I don't go to my Protestant friends and family to tell them where they're wrong. Your welcome to come to my church and pray with me for Jesus to help us both because I certainly need it. Go ahead and go to the Protestant churches and do the same thing.  But be careful telling them your Orthodox because some, not all but some, will be more than happy to explain to you why your Orthodoxy is heretical and will try to recruit you.

This isn't just theory either, the church I was in probably would not have said anything, however, I have personal friends (as in been to their homes or been in their weddings) who I know would. How do I know? Because I've seen them do it.

There is a difference, which it seems you fail to see, between making a choice for yourself and explaining it to those who ask and recruiting other Christians, while actively putting down their churches. There's a bigger difference between understanding what the counsels, the Fathers, the Hierarchs and our Tradition label as heresy and proclaiming oneself personally righteous or better than others.
I am well aware of these things , I have seen and heard it from all of them that they are better than the other, I disagree , God loves us all and wants us all to be saved .

There are many who have said this to me for years from both sides, my opinion is they are all sinners like me, and that goesa for all churches being wrong, stubborn , proud and silly.

There is no Church without sin as there is no man.
i do believe you are the first Orthodox christian that i have heard say your church is wrong.  This is very puzzling to me  ???
Humble yourself and let God JUDGE.

I disagree with the schism  between churches and see both sides as wrong on certain issues. Your Church never made a mistake?

I believe Christ loves all his Sheep, and even the Goats.

If You think you have the only correct church then you do not love your neighbor as yourself.

This can go on forever so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I have shown many Gospel passages to help , Forgive them for they know not what they do .


Jesus Christ , Son Of God , Have mercy on us all.
You elevate yourself above the fray and proclaim Solomonic impartiality. That is an an Orthodox mindset that I am not familiar with. Please help me understand. I am having a really hard time figuring out how a poster who advises all to be humble is so puffed up and self-righteous.
A wise man once said

There are two kinds of men, hypocrites and dead ones.

Did you see my name?
I did not mean to sound above any fray, if I did then it was unintentional.I have quoted the scriptures that I think convey my point.
Jesus plainly said there he is with any 2 or three who pray in his name, I have been told by some clergy that Christ will not step inside a Catholic church ,and vice versa. I say we should be forgiving one another.

I have said I will go to any ones church and pray with them.I am only saying I love my church until that means I am better than someone else. I have discussed this with Bishops, my cousin is head in the Greek islands.I have reasons that I argue why we have not humbled ourselves and rejoin our Brothers after a thousand years of silly bickering, many Greek Orthodox concur many do not.

I will pray with any Christians. And I will not tell them  I am from the better church. How can I explain, I think there is no righteous church ,just as there is no righteous man, I am not putting myself above , I am asking why most others do.

I think God wants us all together, and this is my only Goal.
 

LBK

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I have discussed this with Bishops, my cousin is head in the Greek islands.I have reasons that I argue why we have not humbled ourselves and rejoin our Brothers after a thousand years of silly bickering, many Greek Orthodox concur many do not.
From the Divine Liturgy:

Among the first, remember, O Lord, (names of ruling bishops) Grant them for Thy holy churches in peace, safety, honor, health, and length of days, to rightly proclaim the word of Thy truth.
 

Maximum Bob

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Did you see my name?
Yes, I saw your name, probably in about the same fashion that you saw me explain that I don't think I'm any better than you or anyone else.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
I am not putting myself above , I am asking why most others do.
Could it be that in seeming to look into our heads and our hearts to come to a conclusion about what we think ie. that we're better than someone else, that this is where you seem to be putting your self above?

Sinful Hypocrite said:
I think God wants us all together, and this is my only Goal.
And hey it's a worthwhile goal, I think He would prefer us all together too. But does He not also desire truth? There are real theological differences in the way of some of those reunions. To be sure in my own opinion, which can fly just past the end of my nose, I think there are some separations that are little more than semantics, but not all of them. Are you going to reunite with the Jehovah's Witnesses? They believe in God, they believe in Jesus, just not the Trinity, right? Do you reunite with Judaism? Do you reunite with the earth goddess people? Where do you draw the line? By the standard you seem to be putting out if we draw any lines we're being self-righteous. I don't think that's what your saying, but if your not a line has to be drawn somewhere.
 
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Let God Judge them.

I do not want that job ;D
◄  Matthew 18:20  ►


For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

I am not suggesting we accept any doctrine, But that we quit trying to be picky rather than forgive.
He said mercy above all else, and who are we to judge others.

And most of what has occurred in the past , such as the differences over the Pope, I agree with both sides somewhat, but my preferences are not more Important than Love and faith, God will not judge you wrongly based on what church you were brought up in.Or what church you converted to. do you think he should condemn those others who did not convert with you, or do you think he will condemn those for the mistakes of their churches doctrine?
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Let God Judge them.
Believing that the Orthodox Church teaches the truth about God and how we are to relate to Him is in no way a judgement of personal character or statement of who's going where in the age to come on any individual, Orthodox or not.

I don't know how to say it more clearly than this.
 

katherineofdixie

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Let God Judge them.

I do not want that job ;D
◄  Matthew 18:20  ►


For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

I am not suggesting we accept any doctrine, But that we quit trying to be picky rather than forgive.
He said mercy above all else, and who are we to judge others.

And most of what has occurred in the past , such as the differences over the Pope, I agree with both sides somewhat, but my preferences are not more Important than Love and faith, God will not judge you wrongly based on what church you were brought up in.Or what church you converted to. do you think he should condemn those others who did not convert with you, or do you think he will condemn those for the mistakes of their churches doctrine?
I don't think anyone here has said anything about judging or condemning anyone (except you, maybe). And for the record I do feel sorry for those who are not Orthodox!
 

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katherineofdixie said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Let God Judge them.

I do not want that job ;D
◄  Matthew 18:20  ►


For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

I am not suggesting we accept any doctrine, But that we quit trying to be picky rather than forgive.
He said mercy above all else, and who are we to judge others.

And most of what has occurred in the past , such as the differences over the Pope, I agree with both sides somewhat, but my preferences are not more Important than Love and faith, God will not judge you wrongly based on what church you were brought up in.Or what church you converted to. do you think he should condemn those others who did not convert with you, or do you think he will condemn those for the mistakes of their churches doctrine?
I don't think anyone here has said anything about judging or condemning anyone (except you, maybe). And for the record I do feel sorry for those who are not Orthodox!
maybe they feel the same thing for you since you are not part of their flock.
 

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tweety234 said:
katherineofdixie said:
I'm sure they do. Your point?
Quit feeling sorry for people. Because at the end of time, you might find yourself going to the kingdom of God, after them.
I get more and more confused daily. Tweety as an Othodox Christian don't you believe that you participate in the kingdom of God here and now within the life of the church? One of the things I like most about Orthodoxy is how it doesn't shy away from its position of Truth in the world. However it seems that among the people that's not Always applicable.
 

tweety234

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Ashman618 said:
tweety234 said:
katherineofdixie said:
I'm sure they do. Your point?
Quit feeling sorry for people. Because at the end of time, you might find yourself going to the kingdom of God, after them.
I get more and more confused daily. Tweety as an Othodox Christian don't you believe that you participate in the kingdom of God here and now within the life of the church? One of the things I like most about Orthodoxy is how it doesn't shy away from its position of Truth in the world. However it seems that among the people that's not Always applicable.
to me the kingdom of God is where i can see him. Here on earth I can't see him. Therefore I am living in hopes of one day being made worthy by him to partcipate.
 
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Melodist said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Let God Judge them.
Believing that the Orthodox Church teaches the truth about God and how we are to relate to Him is in no way a judgement of personal character or statement of who's going where in the age to come on any individual, Orthodox or not.

I don't know how to say it more clearly than this.
Our church had a sign in the sunday school classroom that read
God first

Others second

Yourself last

So that would also mean putting their church as better than yours,or at least as good.

If people say(not necessarily you here,I cannot keep track,Generally speaking though)that they have the best Church and speak as if there is a reason they are better than them(Protestant,Catholic, Orthodox,) That sounds like a bad judgement of the others church and or faith.

I have heard others who are clergy say much worse than you about this ,or any one here for that matter,God bless you all.I have also argued with my Greek orthodox preist, He agrees with me but also he  has to be following the doctrine, but most Preists and or Bishops do not agree on all Doctrine, this is all I pray we can overcome .

Jesus specifically warned against our righteosness over others,

And he was most clear.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
 

Melodist

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
This has nothing to do with believing that any church in particular teaches the truth or that any other church may be wrong about some things or lack historical continuity with the Church established by our Lord on Pentecost.
 
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I believe it does, and No one has shown one thing Jesus said (Gospels as I have time and again in this thread) to back their prejudice towards other churches being below theirs.

Because a church is not a building or set of rules, a church is made up of us sinners,and just as Jesus refused to prejudge them or postjudge them based on his ministry, going to pray where he knew he was to be rejected, he was welcoming all,and willing to be merciful to any sinner, including the worst such as me.

Here is a Commentary on this also.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
18:9-14 This parable was to convince some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. God sees with what disposition and design we come to him in holy ordinances. What the Pharisee said, shows that he trusted to himself that he was righteous. We may suppose he was free from gross and scandalous sins. All this was very well and commendable. Miserable is the condition of those who come short of the righteousness of this Pharisee, yet he was not accepted; and why not? He went up to the temple to pray, but was full of himself and his own goodness; the favour and grace of God he did not think worth asking. Let us beware of presenting proud devotions to the Lord, and of despising others. The publican's address to God was full of humility, and of repentance for sin, and desire toward God. His prayer was short, but to the purpose; God be merciful to me a sinner. Blessed be God, that we have this short prayer upon record, as an answered prayer; and that we are sure that he who prayed it, went to his house justified; for so shall we be, if we pray it, as he did, through Jesus Christ. He owned himself a sinner by nature, by practice, guilty before God. He had no dependence but upon the mercy of God; upon that alone he relied. And God's glory is to resist the proud, and give grace to the humble. Justification is of God in Christ; therefore the self-condemned, and not the self-righteous, are justified before God.
God bless us all .

Jesus Christ ,son of God ,have mercy on us all.
 

Melodist

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
I believe it does, and No one has shown one thing Jesus said (Gospels as I have time and again in this thread) to back their prejudice towards other churches being below theirs.
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Matt 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
Because a church is not a building or set of rules, a church is made up of us sinners
The Church is a community, always has been from the day of Pentecost, and that has never changed and never will.

he was welcoming all,and willing to be merciful to any sinner, including the worst such as me.
That doesn't change the fact that no matter how much we may hold in common with any non-Orthodox church, they still do not hold the correct faith in continuity with the community established on the day of Pentecast.

Here is a Commentary on this also.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
18:9-14 This parable was to convince some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. God sees with what disposition and design we come to him in holy ordinances. What the Pharisee said, shows that he trusted to himself that he was righteous. We may suppose he was free from gross and scandalous sins. All this was very well and commendable. Miserable is the condition of those who come short of the righteousness of this Pharisee, yet he was not accepted; and why not? He went up to the temple to pray, but was full of himself and his own goodness; the favour and grace of God he did not think worth asking. Let us beware of presenting proud devotions to the Lord, and of despising others. The publican's address to God was full of humility, and of repentance for sin, and desire toward God. His prayer was short, but to the purpose; God be merciful to me a sinner. Blessed be God, that we have this short prayer upon record, as an answered prayer; and that we are sure that he who prayed it, went to his house justified; for so shall we be, if we pray it, as he did, through Jesus Christ. He owned himself a sinner by nature, by practice, guilty before God. He had no dependence but upon the mercy of God; upon that alone he relied. And God's glory is to resist the proud, and give grace to the humble. Justification is of God in Christ; therefore the self-condemned, and not the self-righteous, are justified before God.
God bless us all .
The above says absolutely nothing about religious affiliation, but speaks of pride, and despite the fact that it does not come from an Orthodox source, in this instance, it is Orthodox in content so I will not argue with anything in the above quote.
 

Maximum Bob

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An Orthodox reading Matthew Henry  ??? ...Okay  :-\

Sinful Hypocrite said:
Let God Judge them.
I do not want that job ;D
Who said anything about judging the people, I'm talking about the belief system.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
Because a church is not a building or set of rules, a church is made up of us sinners,
True, and yet in the context of the OP  which was asking about beliefs, this misses the mark. This, I think, is the disconnect. I'm talking about belief systems and the judgements I've made about them relative to my own actions and beliefs your talking about other people. When I began the process of converting it was not about people it was about beliefs. The Orthodox church I go to is in another city and hour away, the church I left is in my city. I still see those people in the store, at parties, we still go to each others homes at times. I love them, I hug on them and I don't think I'm better than them.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
I am not suggesting we accept any doctrine,...
Good, I was starting to get worried. ;)

Sinful Hypocrite said:
But that we quit trying to be picky rather than forgive. He said mercy above all else, and who are we to judge others.
Forgiveness is for people, not belief systems. None of the people in my previous church have done anything to cause me to need to forgive them or judge them.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
God will not judge you wrongly based on what church you were brought up in.
God, of course, will not judge anyone "wrongly"  ;D but I don't think that's what you meant. I don't think I disagree with you here.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
Or what church you converted to.
But I do think I will be judged based on what I do with the knowledge I have. Correct doctrine once known and understood does matter.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
do you think he should condemn those others who did not convert with you, or do you think he will condemn those for the mistakes of their churches doctrine?
I certainly hope he doesn't but what God does with others is their business and God's, not mine. Hmm that sounds familiar.  :angel:

Sinful Hypocrite said:
and just as Jesus refused to prejudge them or postjudge them based on his ministry, going to pray where he knew he was to be rejected, he was welcoming all,and willing to be merciful to any sinner, including the worst such as me.
Jesus, of course, is God He can go anywhere He wants. I on the other hand am a weak and sinful human I should perhaps be more careful. Look, I've been to my parent's Protestant church (and my Orthodox priest uncle with me) several times since moving towards Orthodoxy and my brother-in-law's Roman Catholic church. But these are special occasions, the Orthodox church is where I go to worship and to pray, I think there's a canon or something...
 
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