Does Judaism believe in Satan ?

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I was recently told by a person who said he was Jewish, that in the case of the book of Job, for example , they do not believe it literally as Satan really exists, only as an Metaphorical example of what evils may befall someone.

He also went on to say that Christianity has invented the notion of Demons and the actual entity of Satan.

This person is a respected person of his community and has always been knowledgeable about issues of the old testament , and helpful to me in many instances in the past.

Does anyone here have experience with Jewish beliefs in the Devil , Demons , or Satan?
 

Marc1152

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Found this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

In Judaism, Satan is a term used since its earliest biblical contexts, to refer to a human opponent.[20] Occasionally, the term has been used to suggest evil influence opposing human beings, as in the Jewish exegesis of 1 Kings 22:22. Thus, Satan is personified as a character in three different places of the Tenakh, serving as an accuser (Zechariah 3:1-2), a seducer (1 Chronicles 21:1), or as a heavenly persecutor who is "among the sons of God" (Job 2:1). In any case, Satan is always subordinate to the power of God, having a role in the divine plan. Satan is rarely mentioned in Tannaitic literature.[21]

In Enochic Judaism, the concept of Satan being an opponent of God and a chief evil figure in among demons, seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple period,[22] particularly in the apocalypses.[21] In Medieval Judaism, the Rabbis rejected these Enochic literary works into the Biblical canon, making every attempt to root them out.[22] Traditionalists and philosophers in medieval Judaism, adhered to rational theology, rejecting any belief in rebel or fallen angels, and viewing evil as abstract.[23]

In Hasidic Judaism, the Kabbalah presents Satan as an agent of God whose function is to tempt one into sin, then turn around and accuse the sinner on high.

The Chasidic Jews of the 18th century, associated ha-Satan with Baal Davar.[24]
 
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Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.
 

JamesRottnek

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.
I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.
 

Marc1152

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JamesRottnek said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.
I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.
It has always fascinated me that in many of the big religions there is demonology. Buddhist Demons are scary bastards. I would love to read a book or see a paper comparing demonology across several religions. I suspect you will only find subtle differences which would say to me that Demons do exists in one manner or another and are not a metaphor for a general concept of evil.

As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
 

Punch

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Marc1152 said:
As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Sinful Hypocrite said:
I was recently told by a person who said he was Jewish, that in the case of the book of Job, for example , they do not believe it literally as Satan really exists, only as an Metaphorical example of what evils may befall someone.

He also went on to say that Christianity has invented the notion of Demons and the actual entity of Satan.

This person is a respected person of his community and has always been knowledgeable about issues of the old testament , and helpful to me in many instances in the past.

Does anyone here have experience with Jewish beliefs in the Devil , Demons , or Satan?
That is a later development by the Rabbis, initially Judaism very much believed in Demons as negative spiritual entities.  The concept of Ha-Satan being a mass representation of Evil or Negativity is indeed very Jewish, however to assert that this concept of evil is also not represented by living spiritual entities is a bit of a recent development.  Today, some Rabbis argue that Satan is merely the flip-side of the coin of free will, not a living being at all, but merely a statistical reality of free-will.  However, the earlier writings of Jewish scholars and especially Biblical commentaries agree very much with the Enochian concept of Satan being a cabal of fallen angels, having been inspired by the rebellion of a single angel who we in Christianity refer to as "the Devil" or "Satan."  It is then true that "Satan" is a concept of evil in Judaism, but I'm not sure its fair to state historically that demons and devils were not personalities as well as concepts.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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Marc1152 said:
In Hasidic Judaism, the Kabbalah presents Satan as an agent of God whose function is to tempt one into sin, then turn around and accuse the sinner on high.
That was always my understanding of the Jewish understanding of Satan
 
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HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Sinful Hypocrite said:
I was recently told by a person who said he was Jewish, that in the case of the book of Job, for example , they do not believe it literally as Satan really exists, only as an Metaphorical example of what evils may befall someone.

He also went on to say that Christianity has invented the notion of Demons and the actual entity of Satan.

This person is a respected person of his community and has always been knowledgeable about issues of the old testament , and helpful to me in many instances in the past.

Does anyone here have experience with Jewish beliefs in the Devil , Demons , or Satan?
That is a later development by the Rabbis, initially Judaism very much believed in Demons as negative spiritual entities.  The concept of Ha-Satan being a mass representation of Evil or Negativity is indeed very Jewish, however to assert that this concept of evil is also not represented by living spiritual entities is a bit of a recent development.  Today, some Rabbis argue that Satan is merely the flip-side of the coin of free will, not a living being at all, but merely a statistical reality of free-will.  However, the earlier writings of Jewish scholars and especially Biblical commentaries agree very much with the Enochian concept of Satan being a cabal of fallen angels, having been inspired by the rebellion of a single angel who we in Christianity refer to as "the Devil" or "Satan."  It is then true that "Satan" is a concept of evil in Judaism, but I'm not sure its fair to state historically that demons and devils were not personalities as well as concepts.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
He was flatly denying that they ever believed in The Devil or demons as real beings, he insisted the Christians started the whole idea of any such real being.

I was very skeptical because the Gospels clearly say the Jews accused John The Baptist and Jesus at of being possessed by A devil and or Demon .

John 10

14“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19At these words the Jews were again divided. 20Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

<< Luke 7:33 >>

American King James Version
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and you say, He has a devil.


Also in the Old testament in Job, Satan is first mentioned by that name. But Job is considered a book of poetry, I recently found , so it is not a Historical event like most of the Old testament .
 

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Marc1152 said:
JamesRottnek said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.
I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.
It has always fascinated me that in many of the big religions there is demonology. Buddhist Demons are scary bastards. I would love to read a book or see a paper comparing demonology across several religions. I suspect you will only find subtle differences which would say to me that Demons do exists in one manner or another and are not a metaphor for a general concept of evil.

As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
It is weird how the demons are always generally the same, but it is the God that differs.

Kind of like "we know what is bad, but what is good???"
 

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Marc1152 said:
JamesRottnek said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.
I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.
It has always fascinated me that in many of the big religions there is demonology. Buddhist Demons are scary bastards. I would love to read a book or see a paper comparing demonology across several religions. I suspect you will only find subtle differences which would say to me that Demons do exists in one manner or another and are not a metaphor for a general concept of evil.

As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
It is my understanding that sometime between 200 and 100 B.C.E., there arose in Jewish thought - in some areas (I believe, for instance, the people who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls) - that Satan was one being, and chief of the fallen angels, and it is an idea found in some of the apocalyptic Jewish literature from the time not long before Christ.  But, it certainly seems to be a fairly late idea.
 
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Punch said:
Marc1152 said:
As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.
You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
Punch said:
Marc1152 said:
As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.
You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.
 
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William said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Punch said:
Marc1152 said:
As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.
You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.
That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.
That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .
[/quote]

Are you seriously contending that loving someone includes believing (or trying to believe) that they always know what they are talking about--getting away from the charged term 'deluded' to what Punch actually said which is that the Jews who were contemporary with Christ clearly had an inferior understanding of spiritual truths, otherwise they would not have crucified the Son of God ("they know not what they do" or St. Paul's "zeal not according to knowledge"). I love my wife but that doesn't mean I assume that she, a non-native speaker, has a better grasp of English than I, a native speaker, do. And as for how I love myself, despite immense amounts of self-love and plenty of intellectual arrogance, I'm still able to grasp the fact that there are things that I am ignorant of or that I might (very occasionally) be mistaken about.
 

Punch

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Sorry, but what you have written is BS.  More modern pseudodox rot with no intent other than to lead the faithful astray and further water down the Faith in preparation for the Antichrist.  Get thee behind me.

Sinful Hypocrite said:
William said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Punch said:
Marc1152 said:
As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.
You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.
That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .
 

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We have a practicing Jew in here somewhere and you people are quoting Wikipedia. Talliot, where are you when we need you?
 

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Sinful Hypocrite said:
William said:
Sinful Hypocrite said:
Punch said:
Marc1152 said:
As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.
You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

Judging Others
You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.
That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .
No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this one.  

Christ clearly identifies and admonishes delusion and error.  The Gospel teaches nothing of accepting whatever people may teach.

Back to topic: There seems to be a lot of support within religious studies circles (take that for what you will) that, at least initially, Jews did not view satan as an individual entity.  I can't find the link now, but a Yale University class on the Old Testament explains this perspective pretty well.
 
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